Need help understanding lead blade dynamics on double willows

[Cgolf]

This yea4 I started making spinnerbaits and double willows are my favorite. The thing I am struggling with is getting the lead blade to spin in some cases or more in others. 
 

The pink bait size 2 and size 4 blades the lead blade turns super slow and tight to the frame. The bait with the size 4 wide willow trail blade originally had a size 2 lead blade but it didn’t spin at all, but upping it to a size 3 helped. The wide willow must have some impact on the lead blade. I have noticed war eagles do use a pretty large lead blade. 
 

Any thoughts on what I either am doing wrong or could do better?

[Deleted account]

Leading willows, specially small ones, do tend to be lazy. I will defer to others with more experience building spinnerbaits on the specifics as to why, as I haven't found definite reasons for it, but what I've found is that a wider and or deeper cupped willow will spin better, the spacing on leading willows is more critical, and the angle that the spinnerbait runs also has a bearing (pun intended), also anything overlapping the blade, including the swivel split rings and the loop it is attached to can interfere with the spin, as willows spin closer to the shaft than other blades. Lastly the size of the clevis, and bearing bead seem more important than other blades. I am not a huge double willow guy, but I'm starting to warm up to them in more situations than just burning.

[Munkin]

Such a small blade I doubt that it gets enough water turbulence to spin? Put it closer to the rear blade or use a larger one is my suggestion. Normally I use a blade that's 1/2 or 1 size smaller to keep the harmony of the blades.

 

Allen

 

[Hammer 4]

I would upsize the lead blade, imho it's to small.

[smalljaw67]

Here is your problem. The wire diameter of the bait requires you to use a size #2 or #3 clevis. The small blades don't catch enough water to force the clevis to rotate around the wire. The only way I found to get a size #3 willow to spin is to either reel it very fast or build the bait on .028" wire and use a size #1 clevis. If you want to lead willow to spin freely at any speed you need a size #3.5 blade minimum or use really thin wire and a smaller clevis.

[Deleted account]

1 hour ago, smalljaw67 said:

Here is your problem. The wire diameter of the bait requires you to use a size #2 or #3 clevis. 

I have been known to ream and polish #1 clevises, did I mention I'm OCD...

[Cgolf]

Wow I really goofed up. I read the Jann's Netcraft spinnerbait guide and I must have gotten the 1/8 ounce and 1/4 ounce rows mixed up or looked at the colorado column instead. Unfortunately I only bought the pink blades in size 2 and 4. Making some new today and will post pics later. Going with a size 2 lead colorado on one and a size 3 nickel willow on the second.

 

3 hours ago, smalljaw67 said:

Here is your problem. The wire diameter of the bait requires you to use a size #2 or #3 clevis. The small blades don't catch enough water to force the clevis to rotate around the wire. The only way I found to get a size #3 willow to spin is to either reel it very fast or build the bait on .028" wire and use a size #1 clevis. If you want to lead willow to spin freely at any speed you need a size #3.5 blade minimum or use really thin wire and a smaller clevis.

 

Where do you find 0.028" wire frames? I got 0.035" from Barlows, would really like the smaller ID frames.

[Jigfishn10]

Having a lazy blade on the arm isn't exactly the end of the world, in fact, I like how it resembles an injured baitfish IMO.

[Bdnoble84]

5 hours ago, Cgolf said:

Wow I really goofed up. I read the Jann's Netcraft spinnerbait guide and I must have gotten the 1/8 ounce and 1/4 ounce rows mixed up or looked at the colorado column instead. Unfortunately I only bought the pink blades in size 2 and 4. Making some new today and will post pics later. Going with a size 2 lead colorado on one and a size 3 nickel willow on the second.

 

 

Where do you find 0.028" wire frames? I got 0.035" from Barlows, would really like the smaller ID frames.

Not sure on premade frames but you can buy the coils and make your own. I use the brown super stainless personally from Barlows. Obviously if you are going to make a ton of spinnerbaits in that config it might not be desirable but if you want to all you need is a good pair of roundnose pliers. 

[Cgolf]

So I did put a Colorado blade in the lead on one, a size 3, and it worked great. The Willow size 3 in front of the size 4 pink also worked well. The bait that had the lead whiptail blade didn’t spin at all, so I replaced it with a size 2 Colorado and downsized the trail blade. Didn’t test that one but it should be good. Thanks for the help and I will take more thoughts if you have them. 
 

One weird thing happened as I was testing these in the trout creek. I had gotten zero hits and never moved a fish on the in-line spin I normally used. While reeling a spin back a trout darted out, so next few casts when tight to the bank and while I didn’t hookup I got a solid thunk. Who knew lol. Filing this one away and may try some of the 1/8 ounce spins I have for trout. 

[scaleface]

Cant tell for sure but those look like cheap swivels . If they are not ball bearing I suggest upgrading .

[Cgolf]

1 minute ago, scaleface said:

Cant tell for sure but those look like cheap swivels . If they are not ball bearing I suggest upgrading .

 

Went with roller swivels on the 1/4 ounce baits because Barlows didn't have smaller ball bearing swivels, so grabbed their roller swivels. The trail blades do spin fairly well and I believe Hummdinger, my number 2 go to spin, uses them as well. None of the above makes it right, but I could only order from one place so I went with what they had. If I find some smaller ones in the future I will swap them out. 

 

Just wish there was a source of cheap ball bearing swivels. I would even buy semi reasonable quantities if they were out there. They are ridiculous in cost to the point it is almost cheaper to buy premade spins, just not as fun.

[scaleface]

10 minutes ago, Cgolf said:

They are ridiculous in cost to the point it is almost cheaper to buy premade spins, just not as fun.

Thats what I do .  Before a spinnerbait reaches the point where it breaks I take the blades and swivel and put them on  my baits . It looks like I have the same mold as you , the bullet spinner mold . I found a bunch of cheap spinnerbaits at a farm store on clearance for .25 but they had good swivels , so I bought them all just for the swivels .

 

 

  I see my mistake . The blade on the clevis is not spinning . I dont use willows on the clevis .

[Cgolf]

21 minutes ago, scaleface said:

Thats what I do .  Before a spinnerbait reaches the point where it breaks I take the blades and swivel and put them on  my baits . It looks like I have the same mold as you , the bullet spinner mold . I found a bunch of cheap spinnerbaits at a farm store on clearance for .25 but they had good swivels , so I bought them all just for the swivels .

 

 

  I see my mistake . The blade on the clevis is not spinning . I dont use willows on the clevis .

 

Once I upsized the lead willow to a 3 instead of a 2 I had no issues. I learned I couldn't read the Jann's netcraft spinner bait making table. I read the small blade suggested limit from the 1/8 ounce line and the suggested large blade from the 1/4 ounce line. That took talent on my part;)

[detroit1]

Bend the tip of the blade up a little - it'll spin.

[WRB]

What everyone misses is how a spinner bait goes through the water. The blades are inline with the line pull and the shaft blade front blade must rotate around the shaft on the clevis. The rear blade is on a swivel and spins independently of the the front blade rotating around the shaft. Basically the spinner bait head is at a 45 degree upward angle not inline with the blade shaft as you retrieve the lure.

If the shaft clevis is too tight on the wire the front blade can’t rotate freely. Use a larger size clevis or open up the hole diameter to rotate freely.

Tom 

[Munkin]

On 6/11/2022 at 6:41 PM, WRB said:

What everyone misses is how a spinner bait goes through the water. The blades are inline with the line pull and the shaft blade front blade must rotate around the shaft on the clevis. The rear blade is on a swivel and spins independently of the the front blade rotating around the shaft. Basically the spinner bait head is at a 45 degree upward angle not inline with the blade shaft as you retrieve the lure.

 

Tom 

 

People think I am lying when I tell them this. 

 

Allen

[MassBass]

14 hours ago, Munkin said:

 

People think I am lying when I tell them this. 

 

Allen

So it can be surmised that, at the angle, that lead blade gets less resistance, so a very small blade does not encounter enough resistance to spin fast?