Does tip-action have *anything* to do with sensitivity? Having issues with my CNQ after NRX.

[ACGOG]

I hate gut hooking fish. Absolutely hate it. Every time I pull a bass out of the water and I don't see the hook poking out of the mouth, I couldn't care less how big it is - I just want to get the hook out. Up until recently, I've only had it happen a couple of times.

 

The rod I have been using forever for my Senkos, TX Rigs, and recently Ned Rigs is my trusty NRX 803s. I love this thing. After my experience with the NRX, I turned into a bit of a G.Loomis fanboy so I thought spending the money on a Conquest was a no-brainer. I picked up an 842s second hand, and a member here was kind enough to trade me a 782s. The 782s has become my new Senko/TX/Ned Rig rod for the past two weeks.

 

With this rod, however, the past two times I've picked up a smaller fish and didn't even realize it was there until I went to pull back to get a little action on the bait. I always keep a close eye on my line but I'll also occasionally look for action elsewhere on the water or near to where I'm standing while I'm slowly reeling it in. On my NRX I'll feel the little nibbles or the bite and then snap my attention back to set the rod and reel it in. On the CNQ this is proving to be substantially more difficult, which I find extremely odd.

 

Since I switched I've gut hooked 3-fish - one more than I can recall in all of my years of fishing.

 

I'm using the exact same reel and the exact same line that I was on the NRX. The only thing I can think of is that the NRX is a Medium-Heavy/Extra Fast Action while the CNQ is a Medium/Fast.

 

I mean, could it just be the CNQ isn't as sensitive as the NRX is? I know there's a lot of debate as to if "sensitivity" is actually a thing or a marketing gimmick, but I feel like I really can't feel as much as I could on the NRX. Maybe I'm just subconsciously fishing differently or something, I don't know. Maybe the fish are just hitting the lures more aggressively now? I've thought about switching to barbless or circle hooks, but I've read circle hooks aren't good for bass because they require the fish to eat it and then swim away.

 

Sorry for the long post, just getting a bit frustrated and hoping for some insight.

 

Edit: Got the power and tip actions mixed up.

[MickD]

If two rods have the same power the one with the XFast action will have a softer tip than the one with the fast action.  It could be that the XFast is not transmitting as much force to the hand as the Fast.  IF they are the same power.  

 

But I use both Fast and XFast rods of about the same power for finesse and I've not noticed a trend that the XFast is less sensitive.  What you could be sensing is a difference in material/design of the two rods.  I don't know the rods you are using, so don't know if there is a basic material difference.  Tough call.

 

Most experts have for years thought that sensitivity is proportional to stiffness to weight ratio.  Is there a significant difference in this between the two rods?  

 

I presume you are using the same lines, or lines with the same characteristics.  There is a huge difference between braid and other lines (mono/FC/Hybrids) for sensitivity.

[ACGOG]

54 minutes ago, MickD said:

If two rods have the same power the one with the XFast action will have a softer tip than the one with the fast action.  It could be that the XFast is not transmitting as much force to the hand as the Fast.  IF they are the same power.  

 

But I use both Fast and XFast rods of about the same power for finesse and I've not noticed a trend that the XFast is less sensitive.  What you could be sensing is a difference in material/design of the two rods.  I don't know the rods you are using, so don't know if there is a basic material difference.  Tough call.

 

Most experts have for years thought that sensitivity is proportional to stiffness to weight ratio.  Is there a significant difference in this between the two rods?  

 

I presume you are using the same lines, or lines with the same characteristics.  There is a huge difference between braid and other lines (mono/FC/Hybrids) for sensitivity.

 

Thanks for the insight!

 

I switched my reel from one pole to the other, so the same line and everything (12lb Sniper Fluoro). They both use the Spiral-X technology or whatever.

 

However, I did double-check them and it looks like I got them mixed up. The NRX is Medium-Heavy, Ex-Fast. The CNQ is actually Medium, Fast. For some reason I thought they were both Medium so I need to update my post. I would have thought a Medium-Heavy would be less sensitive though? But maybe that means it's more stiff?

[Deleted account]

4 hours ago, ACGOG said:

I hate gut hooking fish. Absolutely hate it. Every time I pull a bass out of the water and I don't see the hook poking out of the mouth, I couldn't care less how big it is - I just want to get the hook out. Up until recently, I've only had it happen a couple of times.

 

The rod I have been using forever for my Senkos, TX Rigs, and recently Ned Rigs is my trusty NRX 803s. I love this thing. After my experience with the NRX, I turned into a bit of a G.Loomis fanboy so I thought spending the money on a Conquest was a no-brainer. I picked up an 842s second hand, and a member here was kind enough to trade me a 782s. The 782s has become my new Senko/TX/Ned Rig rod for the past two weeks.

 

With this rod, however, the past two times I've picked up a smaller fish and didn't even realize it was there until I went to pull back to get a little action on the bait. I always keep a close eye on my line but I'll also occasionally look for action elsewhere on the water or near to where I'm standing while I'm slowly reeling it in. On my NRX I'll feel the little nibbles or the bite and then snap my attention back to set the rod and reel it in. On the CNQ this is proving to be substantially more difficult, which I find extremely odd.

 

Since I switched I've gut hooked 3-fish - one more than I can recall in all of my years of fishing.

 

I'm using the exact same reel and the exact same line that I was on the NRX. The only thing I can think of is that the NRX is a Medium-Heavy/Extra Fast Action while the CNQ is a Medium/Fast.

 

I mean, could it just be the CNQ isn't as sensitive as the NRX is? I know there's a lot of debate as to if "sensitivity" is actually a thing or a marketing gimmick, but I feel like I really can't feel as much as I could on the NRX. Maybe I'm just subconsciously fishing differently or something, I don't know. Maybe the fish are just hitting the lures more aggressively now? I've thought about switching to barbless or circle hooks, but I've read circle hooks aren't good for bass because they require the fish to eat it and then swim away.

 

Sorry for the long post, just getting a bit frustrated and hoping for some insight.

 

Edit: Got the power and tip actions mixed up.

If you are feeling more bites (or even think you are feeling more bites) with one rod versus another, then use that rod.

[CrashVector]

22 minutes ago, Deleted account said:

If you are feeling more bites (or even think you are feeling more bites) with one rod versus another, then use that rod.

This.

 

I prefer fast or x-fast tips bc they're more sensitive, but tip action isn't everything when it comes to the sensitivity of a rod.

4 hours ago, MickD said:

If two rods have the same power the one with the XFast action will have a softer tip than the one with the fast action.  It could be that the XFast is not transmitting as much force to the hand as the Fast.  IF they are the same power.  

 

But I use both Fast and XFast rods of about the same power for finesse and I've not noticed a trend that the XFast is less sensitive.

 

 

It's the exact opposite on every rod I use.  As you go down in tip action, they become less stiff and sensitive.

 

Light>moderate>fast>Xfast in increasing order of tip stiffness

[Deleted account]

19 hours ago, ACGOG said:

The rod I have been using forever for my Senkos, TX Rigs, and recently Ned Rigs is my trusty NRX 803s. I love this thing.

This is also a possible cause. It is not unusual, in fact it's very common for an athlete to prefer equipment he/she is familiar with, rather than new, technically superior equipment, that is new to them, and thus have an adjustment period, or indeed be unable to adjust to it. You see it in most sports. 

[MickD]

2 hours ago, CrashVector said:

It's the exact opposite on every rod I use.  As you go down in tip action, they become less stiff and sensitive.

I didn't say one will be more sensitive than the other.  I said if they have the same power the one with the faster action will have the softer tip.  Power is defined as the weight it takes to deflect a certain amount, with CCS it is the weight it takes to deflect 1/3 the length of the blank/rod.  If they deflect the same distance with the same weight, they have the same power.  And the faster action blank,  the one that starts its bend farther up the blank/rod rather than bending over more of the length of the rod, will have to have the softer, less stiff , tip.  It can be no other way.  

 

What is your definition of "tip action?"  I think you may be confusing action and power.  

[CrashVector]

9 minutes ago, MickD said:

I didn't say one will be more sensitive than the other.  I said if they have the same power the one with the faster action will have the softer tip.  Power is defined as the weight it takes to deflect a certain amount, with CCS it is the weight it takes to deflect 1/3 the length of the blank/rod.  If they deflect the same distance with the same weight, they have the same power.  And the faster action blank,  the one that starts its bend farther up the blank/rod rather than bending over more of the length of the rod, will have to have the softer, less stiff , tip.  It can be no other way.  

 

What is your definition of "tip action?"  I think you may be confusing action and power.  

 

No I know what you said.

 

I have, for example, two nearly identical casting rods.  Both mh.  One is a moderate fast tip, other is fast.  The fast tip is stiffer.

 

Your definition is backwards.  The rod that bends the shortest distance from the tip is the faster/stiffer tip.

 

Moderate action will bend the upper 40% or so.  Fast will bend ~ the upper 25%.  Xfast is roughly 15%.

 

Faster action = stiffer tip 

[MickD]

Just now, CrashVector said:

The rod that bends the shortest distance from the tip is the faster action.

Agreed.

 

But  your other point is wrong.  Most likely because the blanks are not almost identical in power, or are mislabled.  All mh's are not the same.  Just recently on another forum we had been discussing a CCS ERN (effective rod number, a measure  of power) of 21 and one builder called it MH, another M, and a Fuji blank with an ERN of 20 is called ML.  

 

You talk about a "moderate fast tip."  Action is for the whole rod.  A rod that is "moderate fast action" is a rod that is moderate fast, not a tip that is moderate fast.  

 

I still would like to hear your definition of "tip action." It might help us clarify what we are talking about.   Please define "tip action."

[CrashVector]

10 minutes ago, MickD said:

Agreed.

 

But  your other point is wrong.  Most likely because the blanks are not almost identical in power, or are mislabled.  All mh's are not the same.  Just recently on another forum we had been discussing a CCS ERN (effective rod number, a measure  of power) of 21 and one builder called it MH, another M, and a Fuji blank with an ERN of 20 is called ML.  

 

You talk about a "moderate fast tip."  Action is for the whole rod.  A rod that is "moderate fast action" is a rod that is moderate fast, not a tip that is moderate fast.  

 

I still would like to hear your definition of "tip action." It might help us clarify what we are talking about.   Please define "tip action."

 

The rod powers aren't identical bc there's no standardized scale.  Abu's MH is different than Shakespeare's MH.

 

A rod's action is commonly also called the rod's "tip" because it refers to how far down from the rod tip the blank deflects before really getting to the backbone of the rod.  How much of the blank bends with pressure...on the rod tip 

 

They were commonly referred to as "medium power, fast tip" for example.

 

Faster tip = stiffer tip.  Therefore, an Xfast rod is stiffer, not softer, than a fast.

 

I'm aware it's the entire rod.  It was just another term for the same thing.

 

However, my point remains.  An Xfast rod doesn't have a softer tip than a fast rod.  Exactly opposite.

[MickD]

I respectfully submit that you are wrong.  I hope newbies to the subject study it well enough to understand what they are getting.  Unless they are using an objective measurement system like CCS they won't know because, as you say, not all the subjective descriptors are the same.  But you are misleading less knowledgeable people.  Some Extra fast action rods of lower power ratings have tips that are actually what most would call "sloppy."  

 

I think you need to study what are called "hot shot" rods.  They are really EXTRA FAST actions, bending only in the last few inches of the rod.  I doubt if you can find faster action rods by your definition of fast action and mine, which are the same.  But the tips are super soft, very easily moved by the hot shot lures that they were designed to fish.   Just because the action is fast does not mean the tip is  stiff.

 

16 minutes ago, CrashVector said:

Faster tip = stiffer tip. 

Faster refers to action.  Stiffer tip refers to power.  So you are talking both action and power, equating the two.  They are not the same.  Action is where the rod bends, power is how much force it takes to bend it.  

 

 

[CrashVector]

6 minutes ago, MickD said:

I respectfully submit that you are wrong.  I hope newbies to the subject study it well enough to understand what they are getting.  Unless they are using an objective measurement system like CCS they won't know because, as you say, not all the subjective descriptors are the same.  But you are misleading less knowledgeable people.  Some Extra fast action rods of lower power ratings have tips that are actually what most would call "sloppy."  

 

I think you need to study what are called "hot shot" rods.  They are really EXTRA FAST actions, bending only in the last few inches of the rod.  I doubt if you can find faster action rods by your definition of fast action and mine, which are the same.  But the tips are super soft, very easily moved by the hot shot lures that they were designed to fish.   Just because the action is fast does not mean the tip is  stiff.

 

Faster refers to action.  Stiffer tip refers to power.  So you are talking both action and power, equating the two.  They are not the same.  Action is where the rod bends, power is how much force it takes to bend it.  

 

 

 

 

Nope.  

 

I have a ML/mod veritas, and a ML/fast veritas.  The ml/mod is far more "floppy" as you put it.

 

I'm not confusing the two, and am aware of what each means.

 

Two identical rods.  Identical power.  One moderate action, the other fast action.

 

The moderate action rod will have the softer tip.

[MickD]

5 minutes ago, CrashVector said:

Two identical rods.  Identical power.

How do you know?  Because they are labeled the same, or because  you have  measured their power?

 

Study hot shot rods.

[CrashVector]

3 minutes ago, MickD said:

How do you know?  Because they are labeled the same, or because  you have  measured their power?

 

Study hot shot rods.

Because Abu Garcia says they're both ML with identical weight specs.

[MickD]

I submit they are not the same power or their action descriptions are wrong or your impressions of tip stiffnes are being misled by the sloppy feel of one rod.  But without subjective measurements, there is no way to truly understand. 

 

   Here is a good place to start:  https://www.common-cents.info/

[CrashVector]

14 minutes ago, MickD said:

I submit they are not the same power or their action descriptions are wrong or your impressions of tip stiffnes are being misled by the sloppy feel of one rod.  But without subjective measurements, there is no way to truly understand. 

 

   Here is a good place to start:  https://www.common-cents.info/I get

 

I get it ..I'm all for a standardized system.  I'd like it to be regulated in fact so that consumers had an industry-wide standardized system so that fishermen could directly compare rods from different manufacturers to one another.

[CrashVector]

2 hours ago, Deleted account said:

This is also a possible cause. It is not unusual, in fact it's very common for an athlete to prefer equipment he/she is familiar with, rather than new, technically superior equipment, that is new to them, and thus have an adjustment period, or indeed be unable to adjust to it. You see in in most sports. 

 

This is true as well to a large degree.

 

People tend to do best with the equipment/lures they've used the most, and therefore have confidence in.

 

When I got my fantasistaX combo, the first few times I used it, in my head I was going "Oh crap.  I just wasted $600." because it was just different from what I was used to, and there was an adjustment period where I missed fish bc I wasn't used to the way the rod felt, despite it being FAR superior to my tournament edition veritas rods.

 

Regardless of the exact specs, a rod that you are accustomed to will feel more "natural" in your hands, and you'd likely not miss many fish despite it possibly being inferior and less sensitive than the new rod.  I know that was my case at least until I got used to the newer one.

[Wprich]

11 hours ago, ACGOG said:

I hate gut hooking fish. Absolutely hate it. Every time I pull a bass out of the water and I don't see the hook poking out of the mouth, I couldn't care less how big it is - I just want to get the hook out. Up until recently, I've only had it happen a couple of times.

 

The rod I have been using forever for my Senkos, TX Rigs, and recently Ned Rigs is my trusty NRX 803s. I love this thing. After my experience with the NRX, I turned into a bit of a G.Loomis fanboy so I thought spending the money on a Conquest was a no-brainer. I picked up an 842s second hand, and a member here was kind enough to trade me a 782s. The 782s has become my new Senko/TX/Ned Rig rod for the past two weeks.

 

With this rod, however, the past two times I've picked up a smaller fish and didn't even realize it was there until I went to pull back to get a little action on the bait. I always keep a close eye on my line but I'll also occasionally look for action elsewhere on the water or near to where I'm standing while I'm slowly reeling it in. On my NRX I'll feel the little nibbles or the bite and then snap my attention back to set the rod and reel it in. On the CNQ this is proving to be substantially more difficult, which I find extremely odd.

 

Since I switched I've gut hooked 3-fish - one more than I can recall in all of my years of fishing.

 

I'm using the exact same reel and the exact same line that I was on the NRX. The only thing I can think of is that the NRX is a Medium-Heavy/Extra Fast Action while the CNQ is a Medium/Fast.

 

I mean, could it just be the CNQ isn't as sensitive as the NRX is? I know there's a lot of debate as to if "sensitivity" is actually a thing or a marketing gimmick, but I feel like I really can't feel as much as I could on the NRX. Maybe I'm just subconsciously fishing differently or something, I don't know. Maybe the fish are just hitting the lures more aggressively now? I've thought about switching to barbless or circle hooks, but I've read circle hooks aren't good for bass because they require the fish to eat it and then swim away.

 

Sorry for the long post, just getting a bit frustrated and hoping for some insight.

 

Edit: Got the power and tip actions mixed up.

I've had same issue to an extent and I have a nrx 852S/872S and a Conquest 842S.  I feel fish much better on the NRX models.  With the Conquest 842S it's been many times that like you I went to pick up or move a bait mainly Ned's and Neko rigs and had a fish on that got off because I was late to setting hook.  I've noticed the nrx to me has either a ting like sensation or sudden absence of contact feeling for me when a fish bites while the conquest 842S it's a noticeable thump IF I feel it.  I think it comes down to the different tips of each and the different guide train that make the NRX more sensitive.

[RDB]

Like you said, you are talking about a 2 v. 3 power but IMO, for wacky it shouldn’t matter as both highly sensitive rods.  I use the NRX 852 for wacky and have no issues.  I personally switched to all NRX but there are many who prefer the Conquest.

[Deleted account]

I'm rubbing my quartz pyramid pendant... 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Part of the problem in this conversation is that some are speaking in absolutes. In the veritas example , the Mod fast may feel softer than the fast but that doesn’t mean it will be true of all or any other examples. Blank makers use a number of techniques to achieve power and action results. There’s no uniformity or standards for any labeled spec. 

[WRB]

Sensitivity regarding rod feedback is misunderstood and used terminology. No fishing rod is sensitive or can attenuate line vibrations because line doesn’t vibrate underwater. 

what you can feel is line axial moments and increased or decreased pulling forces.

Sensitivity comes from a feeling sensed by your finger tips and interpreted by your brain, something fishing rods don’t have.

Tom   

 

[MickD]

Some rods transmit those axial forces better (so that they can be felt) than others.  Compare an old Ugli Stick to a modern graphite rod.  

 

  Most rod experts for many years have believed that sensitivity of the rod is proportional to the stiffness to weight ratio.  

[RichF]

This will be a very unpopular suggestion but…quit using Senkos and neds. Those 2 baits account for the majority of gut hooked fish.  One of the biggest reasons I almost never use them.  

[thunderblack]

8 hours ago, WRB said:

interpreted by your brain, something fishing rods don’t have.

This is untrue. The nrx does have a brain