Is everyone buying into this lie?

[Tennessee Boy]

There’s been a lot of talk here lately about Lithium batteries.  It’s a move I’m strongly considering.  I don’t believe everything on the Internet and I don’t know if the guy in this video knows what he’s talking about.   He make a convincing argument.
 

 I’ve always been a little skeptical about the Lithium battery industry’s claim that lead acid batteries only have 1/2 the capacity of a LiFePO4 batteries.  Everyone now seems to be convinced that your lead acid battery is doomed if you discharge it to 49.99%.  
 

 

[A-Jay]

Still a cost thing for me.

I use wet lead to power the canoe.

Think they are going on 8 or 10 years now.

I use AGM in the Pro-V bass and I got 5 years from them with what I'd call at least average use with superor care. 

The price tag of the newer deals semms disproportionate.

A-Jay

[Choporoz]

I just dropped by to say that batteries suck.   So do chargers.  Such a seemingly simple pair of items always, very quickly becomes so complicated that I want to scream.

 

 

[TnRiver46]

10 minutes ago, Choporoz said:

I just dropped by to say that batteries suck.   So do chargers.  Such a seemingly simple pair of items always, very quickly becomes so complicated that I want to scream.

 

 

I use $80 batteries and a $20 charger and they both work great haha

[DaubsNU1]

All my batteries live in my un-heated, un-insulated shop year round. It can get 100+ in there in the summers...and below zero in winter. 

 

Boat x2, ATV's x2, John Deere, extra truck battery, and even my portable generator. 

 

The boat has an on-board charger / maintainer...that is plugged in year round. All the other batteries are charged and maintained with inexpensive charger purchased through Amazon. ATV batteries are 6-7+ years old, John Deere is 7 years old. 

 

They all seem to perform well. ** I must be lucky **

 

I'm not moving to lithium batteries any time soon. 

[Tennessee Boy]

Just now, TnRiver46 said:

I use $80 batteries and a $20 charger and they both work great haha

I used to use cheap batteries from Walmart and an old rusty charger that my dad gave me.  They worked great.  The problem is,  I'm afraid the fish can tell when I'm using cheap stuff.  I mean just reading the thread on active vs inactive fish makes me think I need to spend more money on batteries.   

[Choporoz]

For crissakes, I made a battery from a potato in 3rd grade.   But I can't get reliable power to a 7 inch fishfinder for under a hundred bucks and a lot of hoodoo voodoo mystery.   New battery?  Oh, you need a new charger for that.  The green light doesn't come on?   Oh...just wait a few more days....still not on....must be your charger....can't be our battery....Our charger?  No way....you got a bad battery....get a new fangled bcdTUvX battery with 500000 cycles....but you will need our new charger for that.....oh, you used most of your ampvoltwatts last time out??  Sorry, you just took 3 years off the life of your battery....better get a new one as back up....just in case.....but that new one will need a different charger

[InfantryMP]

I have had great success with the Duracell AMG batteries from Sam's Club. The 18 month in store warranty was great too. If anything happened I could get it swapped out. They were not that expensive either. 

 

I will say this on the lithium argument. I see a lot of pros using them successfully. I do not doubt however that if one failed on them on a random Tuesday they would not tell you about it. I do not think the price is justifiable for the weekend guys, or even some local tournament folks.  

[Jig Man]

I may take a look at lithiums when they don’t come from China.

[Junk Fisherman]

I've done quite a bit of research on lithium batteries over the last couple weeks.  I definitely won't be dropping close to 2K for lithium batteries and a charger for my boat.  My wet cell Duracells from Sam's Club for my trolling motor are going on 6 years now.  Yes, 6 years.  I expected 3-4 years when I bought the batteries but they have been flawless and easily still last an 9-10 hour day.  I do check the water every couple months and am no longer surprised with how often I must add water.  Tough to beat around $200 for a couple more batteries in a year or so when I need to finally replace them.  

 

But for a 4th battery that I am using for my Livescope, I did go with a 33AH lithium.  The size, weight, and performance is what led me to a lithium.   

[casts_by_fly]

55 minutes ago, Jig Man said:

I may take a look at lithiums when they don’t come from China.

 

Dakota is USA sourced lithium and assembled here.

 

Hold that thought.  I've heard and read it, but can't verify it one way or another.

 

1 hour ago, InfantryMP said:

I have had great success with the Duracell AMG batteries from Sam's Club. The 18 month in store warranty was great too. If anything happened I could get it swapped out. They were not that expensive either. 

 

I will say this on the lithium argument. I see a lot of pros using them successfully. I do not doubt however that if one failed on them on a random Tuesday they would not tell you about it. I do not think the price is justifiable for the weekend guys, or even some local tournament folks.  

 

The duracell AGMs are the best buy for sure in a lead battery,

 

38 minutes ago, Junk Fisherman said:

I've done quite a bit of research on lithium batteries over the last couple weeks.  I definitely won't be dropping close to 2K for lithium batteries and a charger for my boat.  My wet cell Duracells from Sam's Club for my trolling motor are going on 6 years now.  Yes, 6 years.  I expected 3-4 years when I bought the batteries but they have been flawless and easily still last an 9-10 hour day.  I do check the water every couple months and am no longer surprised with how often I must add water.  Tough to beat around $200 for a couple more batteries in a year or so when I need to finally replace them.  

 

But for a 4th battery that I am using for my Livescope, I did go with a 33AH lithium.  The size, weight, and performance is what led me to a lithium.   

 

No need to spend $2k for a full set of batteries and charger.  I'm guessing you're 24V plus a cranking?  I'd leave the cranking battery as lead.  Two trolling motor batteries that will go all day will run you $1400 (amped 100 AH lithium).  A four bank Noco is $170 and each bank can be set for the type of battery so no issue keeping the lead.  There may be other options out there, but Amped and Noco are both high quality.  Depending on your use, a pair of 80 AH for $1100 might be just fine for you.  No doubt it is investment, especially if you have to fully replace what you have.

 

---

 

Lithiums have their place.  I run an 80 and a 30 in my Kayak for motor and fishfinder/lights.  If I were running lead I'd be about 75 lb heavier.  I carry the boat in the truck bed, so there is no way I could load and unload without taking the battery out whereas now I do.  It would also put me right close to the weight limit for the boat between me and gear.  Also since electric is my primary propulsion I couldn't deal with the slow down over the charge of the battery.  I'd start dropping speed quickly and be at a crawl by the end of the day (short of going to a group 31 which would add another 25 lb).  As in the video, well taken care of batteries will last far longer than abused ones.  Making comparisons needs to be apples to apples.  If you use the top 50% of your battery and charge it when you get home then your batteries are going to last a while regardless of chemistry.  If you abuse your batteries you won't get the lifetime regardless of chemistry.  The two main addages of batteries apply- buy the biggest capacity you can fit and charge it when you're done with it.  If you follow those two you'll maximise the lifespan.  At the end of the day though, for the same person using the same nominal capacity, and treating both equally, lithium will last longer and perform better for less weight.  They are more expensive so its just whether that performance it worth it to your application.

 

My dad is also old and struggles (almost can't and definitely shouldn't) to pull his batteries out of the boat at the end of the season (he stores in a unit without power, so has to pull them for the winter).  A 25 lb lithium is no problem, so I bought him one last year for birthday/father's day.  He's also in an underpowered tracker (HP limits) so dropping 75 lb in the back end will help him for sure.  Its not mandatory and he'd have continued with his duracells, but the lithium is better for his use.  It also made for a good gift for someone who has everything or just gets the things he needs/wants.

 

thanks

rick

Edited April 20, 2022 by casts_by_fly
correction for validation of info

[GreenPig]

I've been running my Solix 15, 360 Imaging, and navigation lights off a single Duracell Group 31 AGM for years. The Solix and 360 are heavy drinkers and per my Dual Pro charger it's usually around 30% after a normal day of fishing. I'd like to swap my almost 200 lbs of AGM's out with lithium batterys but the lithiums have got to come down or the AGM's will have to go way up before I do.

[Tennessee Boy]

2 hours ago, Jig Man said:

I may take a look at lithiums when they don’t come from China.

Battleborn batteries are engineered and manufactured in the US.  I suspect that the lithium cells in the battery are made in China but I don’t know for sure.   Battleborn’s get rave reviews but they are pricey.

[AmmoGuy]

13 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Battleborn batteries are engineered and manufactured in the US.  I suspect that the lithium cells in the battery are made in China but I don’t know for sure.   Battleborn’s get rave reviews but they are pricey.

 

They probably use 26650's or 21700s, and I'm pretty sure no one in the US is manufacturing those cells. 

[Tennessee Boy]

13 minutes ago, AmmoGuy said:

 

They probably use 26650's or 21700s, and I'm pretty sure no one in the US is manufacturing those cells. 

I watched a video of a guy tearing apart a Battleborn and they looked like 26650 cells but are supposed to be proprietary cells.  I would bet they are made in China though.

[Jig Man]

Brunswick is supposed to be getting into lithiums.  I don’t have any particulars on that but if American made I might consider a switch as I have 6 31s in the boat.

[padon]

i fish electric only lakes and alot of us have started moving to lithiums. mainly to save weight. most of us run 48 or 60 volt motors with however many 6volt batteries we need to get the voltage, the guys who have gone to lithiums save aboy 400 pounds in weight and they take up less space. and yes they run longer than lead. i went with a 24volt lithium  battery  for my ultrex this year. saved over 100 pounds only need 1 battery and ive fished 3 trips on it this year and havent needed to charge it yet, that wont happen with lead.the guy in the video can say what he wants and im not saying hes wrong im just tekking you what ive seen with my experience . might not be a big deal with gas boats but for our rigs lithium is clearly better. but they aint cheap.

[Woody B]

My boat came with an Interstate group 24 cranking battery and an Interstate group 27 trolling motor battery.   (bought in Dec 2021).   I would occasionally have to jump the big motor if I stayed on the trolling motor for a long time.  I added a trolling motor with anchoring, then I'd run through the trolling motor battery in 4 or 5 hours.   I decided to add a lithium trolling motor battery, and combine the Interstates to make 1 big cranking battery.   Last Saturday I fished from dawn until dark in strong winds and my 2 teenage grandsons in the boat.  My trolling motor battery (125 amp hour) was at 52% when I got home.  Combining the 2 lead batteries solved my electronics/cranking battery problems.   I already had a Noco charger.  

 

 

The cost of lithium stung.  I'll decided if it was worth it in 10 years or so.   

[gim]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:56 AM, Junk Fisherman said:

My wet cell Duracells from Sam's Club for my trolling motor are going on 6 years now.  Yes, 6 years.  I expected 3-4 years when I bought the batteries but they have been flawless and easily still last an 9-10 hour day. 

The wet cell interstate deep cycles for my bow mount that came with the boat when I bought it in 2015 lasted 4.5 seasons and I just last week replaced the wet cell interstate cranking battery that came with the boat, so I got 6 full seasons out of that one. Feel pretty good about both those, in terms of cost and durability.

[Bird]

Advancement in technology is no secret. Every lead acid battery I replace is with lithium.

Guess I'll see about longevity but that's the claim.

[Bankc]

One thing to keep in mind about lithium batteries is they have higher voltage.  So for auto pilot type trolling motors, they'll use less amperage to stay put or follow a path at a given speed.  This will increase the number of hours a battery will run.  They also, unlike lead acid type batteries, have a pretty flat discharge curve.  When a lead acid battery starts running down, the voltage drops, so the trolling motor becomes slower, and has to run longer or at a faster speed, thus drawing more amps.  LiFePo4 batteries tend to stay pretty flat in their discharge curve, so they use less amps throughout their charge cycle, assuming your traveling the same speed.  An you'll usually get a bit higher top speed out a lithium battery at full throttle on the trolling motor versus a lead acid, so you'll spend less time running the motor to cover the same distance.  Plus the weight savings will help efficiency.  

 

Watts = Volts x Amps.  Which means if you up the volts, you get the same power at proportionally less amps.  

 

Also, while it's true that LiFePo4 batteries don't get damaged as badly as lead-acid batteries when fully discharged, it's still a good idea to not draw them down below 20%.  A fully charged LiFePo4 lithium battery will output 13.5v and run down to 12.9v at 20%.  A lead-acid will start off around 12.7v and drop down to about 12.2v at 50%.  So you can see how you get more power at every step along the way with a lithium battery than you do with even a fully charged lead-acid.  Of course, with sonar and other electronics, none of this will matter.  But it will make a noticeable difference on a trolling motor.  

[Boomstick]

What is true is the way that acid batteries and lithium batteries drain is different. When acid batteries drop in charge so does the power output which is lower to begin with so they can no longer power your device. Lithium batteries power output hardly drops with the charge so they produce enough power to power your device until they're essentially dead. As a result, my 18ah battery gets me maybe 30 hours of use per a charge, where on my 12ah acid battery (which is a little larger in size and the largest acid battery I can fit in my drypod) only gets me about 12 hours of use.

 

As a kayaker, the lithiums make sense because they are smaller and lighter, and one battery lasts me a week long camping trip for the most part.

The other thing that is generally true is fully discharging an acid battery reduces its life somewhat. Where with a lithium, once your device turns off it'll generally be fine unless you try to turn it back on again without charging it.

 

So far I'm on season three with my lithium and it seems to perform well. At some point, they do stop holding as much of a charge, just like your cell phone but my Amped Outdoors battery has beat out any cell phone battery I have owned.