Looking to build the lightest spinning rod possible

[MickD]

4 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

As far as the reel seat goes I'm going to put a fuji skss with the hidden threads on. I'm very torn over grip material as I love how cork looks and feels but I'm interested in the less weight and better durability offered by carbon fiber, I'll end up buying both and see which grip setup gets the nod. 

SKSS skeleton, right, with nothing between the pieces?  That is the type of ergonomic compromise I'm not willing to make.  Since the hands don't have a lot of contact with the grip outside of the seat then you don't need much out there.  A carbon fiber butt knob and a couple small ramps off the seat, they can be made of rigid polyurethane seat arbors and weigh almost nothing, and they feel nice and smooth to the fingers.  Easily machined if you have a drill press.  

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

3 minutes ago, MickD said:

SKSS skeleton, right, with nothing between the pieces?  That is the type of ergonomic compromise I'm not willing to make.  Since the hands don't have a lot of contact with the grip outside of the seat then you don't need much out there.  A carbon fiber butt knob and a couple small ramps off the seat, they can be made of rigid polyurethane seat arbors and weigh almost nothing, and they feel nice and smooth to the fingers.  Easily machined if you have a drill press.  

That rod is a beauty!! My current favorite spinning setup uses a fuji skeleton reel seat. So I'm familiar with the feel. I did opt for the model with the hidden threads so there is SOMETHING out front for the fingers to ride on. 

The new vanford is arriving today. ????

[Lead Head]

Casting rods were built with fuji guides all stainless alconite 2 kw, 2 kb, and 6 kt runners. 10-8-6-5- if I had this to do again it would be 1 kw10, 1 kb7, 2 kb5, and 6 kt5 runners. Fuji ecs real seat with kdps hidden thread sleeve and fuji perfect fit components. Carbon fiber grips. 

 

Spinning rod is a sb-724 with a AT Aero seat, hidden threads (fuji perfect fit components), carbon fiber grips and a microwave guide set.

 

I don't know the finished weights but I'll try to get them for you soon. I definitely wasn't as ambitious or dedicated as you when it came to keeping weight down, but they are extremely comfortable and light to me. 

 

Delta blanks are composite. Supposedly a mix of multiple modulious glass and graphite. They are great blanks for the price when on sale, and make excellent moving bait rods. I have a sj-706 delta built into a casting rod similar to those listed above and it comes in at 4.2oz. Not bad for a 1/4 - 1oz lure rated (NFC calls it a heavy, but it is technically a spinning blank) composite rod.

[MickD]

From my experience and that of others you only need two sizes of guides on baitcasters, the first guide, like a double foot 10, or RV 6 (to get the height) then runners of all the same size.  I would use at least two KB's, the rest KT's unless a pretty heavy class rod, then I'd probably use KB's all the way.  

[uno]

If you do hidden thread there is basically no weight difference between a carbon fiber/trim ring cover or a cork cover. Also, if you make it uplocking, you need exactly one cork ring for the "foregrip". Agree with MickD that split reel seats are really uncomfortable, but it really depends on how you hold the rod. If weight is a big concern with your rod building, make sure to get a good scale and weigh every component that you use. If you weigh things yourself you will likely be surprised about which things way more and less. 

[spoonplugger1]

Here's an old computer graphic or 50 lb mono in a 3 mm guide ring, G Loomis was using 4 mm runners on his rods 40 years ago. No one's reinventing the wheel just dusting off an old one.

[MickD]

Now let's see the graphic of a uni knot with 20 pound braid and 15 pound mono leader.  Yes all practical lines will go freely through any available guide size, but not all of the knots will.

 

A uni tied with 15 pound mono will be about .075 inch diameter.  The ID of a 3mm guide is probably about 2mm, or .080 inch.   My numbers can be off quite a bit and there still is a problem.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Really appreciate all of your guys input. Received the guides for the rod today. 3.59 grams 8 guides. I've ordered a kb as recommended and waiting for the blank to arrive so I can size it for a tiptop. Can't imagine it will add more than .1 grams with the additional kb and tip top. How does one select the ring size for the tip top? Is the ring size the same as the runners?

My current spinning outfit has a split seat and I actually don't mind the feel. I haven't experienced any discomfort in using it for extended periods of time. That said, I need to get my hands on something more " ergonomic" some time to see if I'd like it. Not against a comfy grip, just won't be on this particular build. 

[MickD]

I use the same ring size as the guides, but others go up or down a size or so and they all work fine.  With your priority on weight, go the same.  I wouldn't go smaller since you are pretty small now. 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Ordered the kb just now. Am I going a half size up or a full size up on the tube size for the tip top?

 

When wrapping the guides, how many wraps should I have before I get up on the foot? And how far up the guide will I wrap? I Want to keep it to a minimum but don't want to sacrifice strength and durability. I have a rod I plan to practice on. I'm going to carefully shape some pieces of steel wire similar to a guide foot to simulate the process. 

[MickD]

7 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Ordered the kb just now. Am I going a half size up or a full size up on the tube size for the tip top?

 

When wrapping the guides, how many wraps should I have before I get up on the foot? And how far up the guide will I wrap? I Want to keep it to a minimum but don't want to sacrifice strength and durability. I have a rod I plan to practice on. I'm going to carefully shape some pieces of steel wire similar to a guide foot to simulate the process. 

You can do as few wraps as you can get away with before going up onto the foot.  I think my KT wraps are only about 1/4 inch total length.  Wrap all the way to the eye of the guide inserting your pull through thread at an appropriate distance from the end. 

 

Are you familiar with the locking loop and prepping the blank and seat parts before epoxy?  https://www.rodbuilding.org/library/forhan.html     https://www.rodbuilding.org/library/waterfree.html

 

I use three loops around the eye of the guide but often do not always use the blocking wraps which I really don't think add much if anything. If I do blocking wraps I only do a couple 2 or 3 .  I think with really small guides like the KT's that the locking loops can prevent pull out, although they are so small they don't get caught on anything very often.  

[Chris Catignani]

I wish I had this resource when I frist started....There is like a 10 step process.

 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Those couple links are very helpful!! I've been watching lots of videos on wrapping and feel like I have a solid understanding of how it works. Those locking and blocking wraps definitely seem to be the answer to guides that won't pull out. The only video I've watched that showed someone prepping the blank the guy used like 60 grit, wrapped it around the blank, squeezed, and proceeded to twist the blank inside the sand paper. I cringed... Definitely I will use scotchbrite..

[MickD]

2 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

60 grit, wrapped it around the blank, squeezed, and proceeded to twist the blank inside the sand paper. I cringed... Definitely I will use scotchbrite..

This is definitely wrong!  Many feel that giving the epoxy grooves to fit into makes the bond stronger, but that is not the case.  Do it like the link recommends.  Don't skimp on epoxy.  The biggest failure I've seen in factory rods is from not enough epoxy bonding the seat either to the arbors/spacers or from the arbors/spacers to the seat.    

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

3 minutes ago, MickD said:

This is definitely wrong!  Many feel that giving the epoxy grooves to fit into makes the bond stronger, but that is not the case.  Do it like the link recommends.  Don't skimp on epoxy.  The biggest failure I've seen in factory rods is from not enough epoxy bonding the seat either to the arbors/spacers or from the arbors/spacers to the seat.    

Yeah I was literally like "?what is this guy thinking?" In order to not get the squeegee effect with the epoxy how tightly should my reel seat and grips fit at their given placements after reaming?

[MickD]

1 hour ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Yeah I was literally like "?what is this guy thinking?" In order to not get the squeegee effect with the epoxy how tightly should my reel seat and grips fit at their given placements after reaming?

A "slip" fit, you don't want them a force fit, and you don't want them sloppy.  You will move some epoxy out, so if the shape allows it, use masking tape to protect as best you can, remove immediately, then clean up with alcohol.  Clean multiple times until when the alcohol dries there is no shiny look from epoxy.  I don't think you are using cork on this one, but you don't want cork to be stretched into position as it will in time probably split.  It doesn't like tension and a force fit puts it into tension.  

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

7 hours ago, MickD said:

A "slip" fit, you don't want them a force fit, and you don't want them sloppy.  You will move some epoxy out, so if the shape allows it, use masking tape to protect as best you can, remove immediately, then clean up with alcohol.  Clean multiple times until when the alcohol dries there is no shiny look from epoxy.  I don't think you are using cork on this one, but you don't want cork to be stretched into position as it will in time probably split.  It doesn't like tension and a force fit puts it into tension. 

Gotcha. Thank you. I'm going to try a very minimal carbon fiber grip setup. If I don't like it I'll be back to cork for life.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

https://www.rodhouse.fr/fr/#comparator. This is a neat tool if it's accurate. Cool way to compare blanks reaction to different loads. The mhx and rain shadow rx10 blanks of similar specs are much less parabolic. I played with it for a bit and was definitely stimulated. Lol 

 

Do I need to use a color protector when wrapping with permagloss if I want my thread colors to keep the color from bleeding out and becoming opaque

[MickD]

Yes, or use no-cp thread.  No-cp thread looks different after finishing, has a duller look, less sheen.  I don't care for it.  

 

I just put lite build epoxy onto 9 guide wraps, the tiptop wrap, about 8-10 inches of a grip area of a rod and the total weight gain of the rod was only .05 oz.  Most of this weight had to be in the area of the grip where it doesn't affect the action.  The wraps need no more epoxy-they look just fine with one coat.  My point is that while Permagloss is more than likely lighter, it cannot be much lighter and the difference is inconsequential.  With a 3/16 oz (.1875 oz)  lure on the end of the line how much different will the rod feel between using Permagloss and epoxy when the difference between the two is concentrated at the butt and totals only .05 of an oz?

 

I expect you already know that you will not get the same look with Permagloss as you get with epoxy. 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

I guess my worry with epoxy is ending up with fat balls ( probably an exaggeration) of epoxy on my guides. I've seen some poor looking pictures in my looking and I definitely want to stay away from that. My guess is that the permagloss with it's near water consistency would be difficult to achieve a "smooth" look like with epoxy. I do not know the exact difference between the two, logic tells me what I thought. I could be way off. 

[Chris Catignani]

One thing you can do with the tread is go with a lighter color and let the finish make it darker. Or use the NCP like @MickD said. If you do use epoxy...just put on a thin first coat.

[MickD]

How the regular nylon will look without cp is quite variable.  I don't think you can get bright colors without using cp, but could be wrong.  I don't know what color one would start with when attempting to end up with candy apple, one of my favorite colors.

 

One way to get a somewhat accurate look at the final color is to do a test wrap then wet it with alcohol.  Not totally accurate, but close.  

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Candy apple or a shade or two darker is exactly what I'm shooting for. Seems like if I really hope to get exactly what I want with color I really need to buy a bunch of colors I like and wrap / finish till I find what I'm looking for. What has your experience with various reds turned up Mick?

[CrashVector]

If money is no object, the Abu Garcia Zenon spinning reel and rods....are amazingly light.

 

Just be be prepared to drop about $1,000.

[Chris Catignani]

If your looking to do Candy Apple Red...I think your gonna have to just use CP.