Looking to build the lightest spinning rod possible

[uno]

The size 16 butt guide will work less well with fluoro than braid as fluoro is much harder to "tame" at the first guide. For 6 lb fluoro you should be fine. Much heavier than that I would do a size 20 butt guide. 

The size 16 butt guide will work less well with fluoro than braid as fluoro is much harder to "tame" at the first guide. For 6 lb fluoro you should be fine. Much heavier than that I would do a size 20 butt guide. 

The size 16 butt guide will work less well with fluoro than braid as fluoro is much harder to "tame" at the first guide. For 6 lb fluoro you should be fine. Much heavier than that I would do a size 20 butt guide. 

The size 16 butt guide will work less well with fluoro than braid as fluoro is much harder to "tame" at the first guide. For 6 lb fluoro you should be fine. Much heavier than that I would do a size 20 butt guide. 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

1 hour ago, uno said:

The size 16 butt guide will work less well with fluoro than braid as fluoro is much harder to "tame" at the first guide. For 6 lb fluoro you should be fine. Much heavier than that I would do a size 20 butt guide. 

The size 16 butt guide will work less well with fluoro than braid as fluoro is much harder to "tame" at the first guide. For 6 lb fluoro you should be fine. Much heavier than that I would do a size 20 butt guide. 

The size 16 butt guide will work less well with fluoro than braid as fluoro is much harder to "tame" at the first guide. For 6 lb fluoro you should be fine. Much heavier than that I would do a size 20 butt guide. 

The size 16 butt guide will work less well with fluoro than braid as fluoro is much harder to "tame" at the first guide. For 6 lb fluoro you should be fine. Much heavier than that I would do a size 20 butt guide. 

So 20, 10, 5.5, and 4 runners?

 

Also I'm very interested in the g2 carbon split grips with the CCT aero reel seat. I know this may drive the weight up a bit, but from a sensitivity standpoint can it get much better?

 

I say the 20 size butt guide because this rod could see 8-10 lb fluorocarbon on occasion. 

Also looking at more blanks to check out. I really want to go the mhx elite x but they're gone till the end of August. Does g. Loomis or Croix that comes in at weights comparable to the mhx or the k2?

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

Gloomis doesn’t sell blanks anymore. The NFC x ray, Rodgeeks c4, St Croix SCV, Rainshadow Rx10 or leftover Eternity, PointBlank are all good. IMO grips are 90% cosmetic as little if any of the hand makes significant contact during the retrieve. I like the G2 and have used a lot of them. 

[uno]

16 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

So 20, 10, 5.5, and 4 runners?

 

Also I'm very interested in the g2 carbon split grips with the CCT aero reel seat. I know this may drive the weight up a bit, but from a sensitivity standpoint can it get much better?

 

I say the 20 size butt guide because this rod could see 8-10 lb fluorocarbon on occasion. 

Also looking at more blanks to check out. I really want to go the mhx elite x but they're gone till the end of August. Does g. Loomis or Croix that comes in at weights comparable to the mhx or the k2?

Yep, I think I would go with 20, 10, 5.5M and 4 runners. NFC xray SJ703 is 1.4 oz. St. Croix SCV7ML (have to get it from rod geeks) is 1.5 oz. Either would make an awesome medium light spinning rod. 

[Alex from GA]

I have a couple of rods that weigh less than 3 oz and they are built on Rainshadow Immortal blanks with Minima or Mudhole SSR guides.  One is paired with an under 6 oz Okuma RTX 30 reel.  The whole rig weighs less than 10 oz with line, sinker and hook.  I use it several times a week and It's a pleasure.  The other has a Pflueger President 20 reel that I use in my kayak.  I made it shorter to cast under trees on the river but has still brought in 4 lb Shoal and Alabama Bass.

[MickD]

1 hour ago, uno said:

NFC xray SJ703 is 1.4 oz.

1.48 in my view of their catalog.  NFC , unfortunately so far, is strange in their descriptions which often do not match the measured values for power and action.  If I were choosing between NFC and St Croix, I would go St Croix.  More likely to get what is closer to the description.  I just received an NFC drop shot rod rated Medium power.  Its CCS ERN is 12.8 and it feels about that light in power and weights 1.6 oz. I have asked for their data to confirm the ERN.  I have not yet finished the build, so I have not fished it.   I seriously question whether another NFC blank weighing 1.48 will have any more power than about ERN 13.   

 

A Point Blank PB701MLF measures ERN 19.9 and weighs 1.76 oz.  It is probably my favorite rod for spin finesse.  I have measured the true natural frequency of blanks and Point Blanks have the highest of any blanks measured which indicates the highest stiffness to weight ratios, the fastest recovery times,and most likely the most sensitivity.   

 

I often fish a St Croix SCV70MF, and it's a very fine rod.  I expect the SCV70MLF (orXF) is also.  I seem to remember many on this forum having the SCV70MLF as a favorite.

 

The Xray that I have is the mirror finish, not the highly textured one.  While the mirror has only very small grooves in the finish, it still is a bit of a pain to wrap due to the difficulty of moving the wrap thread on its surface.  I prefer to build on St. Croix and Point Blank, or any other un-textured blanks.  

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

3 hours ago, uno said:

Yep, I think I would go with 20, 10, 5.5M and 4 runners. NFC xray SJ703 is 1.4 oz. St. Croix SCV7ML (have to get it from rod geeks) is 1.5 oz. Either would make an awesome medium light spinning rod. 

Awesome, thank you. Is there a formula for spacing them? Or some universal guide? I'm assuming since these guides are designed different than anything else I've used that I could just measure side to side with a current rod? 

 

Thanks also for the recommendations for blanks

2 hours ago, Alex from GA said:

I have a couple of rods that weigh less than 3 oz and they are built on Rainshadow Immortal blanks with Minima or Mudhole SSR guides.  One is paired with an under 6 oz Okuma RTX 30 reel.  The whole rig weighs less than 10 oz with line, sinker and hook.  I use it several times a week and It's a pleasure.  The other has a Pflueger President 20 reel that I use in my kayak.  I made it shorter to cast under trees on the river but has still brought in 4 lb Shoal and Alabama Bass.

Under 3 is crazy light! What length blanks were you using? And what was the so called "power"?

2 hours ago, MickD said:

1.48 in my view of their catalog. 

Id call that 1.5.... unless I worked for them. ?

[MickD]

59 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Id call that 1.5.... unless I worked for them.

Yes, not 1.4 when we are picking nits.

59 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Awesome, thank you. Is there a formula for spacing them?

Anglersresource.net use the KR software to locate the reduction guides, locate the running guides with the 2 line stress test, tutorial on same site.  I always use 3 reduction guides + 6 runners on a 7 foot rod.  Most use 5 runners.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

I'm probably going to order guides tonight. 15%off easter sale for rod building parts. Lol 

 

What tip-top do I run? The sizes I'm also a little confused about.

https://www.fujitackle.eu/fuji_torzite_t-mnttf_flanged

Or

https://www.fujitackle.eu/fuji_torzite_t-kgttf

 

5 of these for runners?

 

https://www.hffcustomrods.com/product/fuji-torzite-kt-single-foot-titanium-guides/

 

 

 

[MickD]

2 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

What tip-top do I run?

You should go KG in my opinion, either SIC or torzite.  I've never used Torzite, always use SIC.  Never grooved a SIC.  Use tip top cement, a hot melt, to attach it.  If you use epoxy and ever need to replace it you may sacrifice a half inch of tip of the blank because with epoxy you may not be able to get it off.  Order the ring size that matches or is one size larger than the runners, and a tube size 1/2 size larger than the advertised tip diameter.  It is not a problem if the tube is too large.  It is an unsolvable problem if it's too small.   

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Are those proper runners I linked?

 

[MickD]

16 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

5 of these for runners?

You can go Torzite if you want the absolute best, but they are very pricey for little value over SIC.  I have NEVER grooved any guide of any material, and I used a lot of cheapies before I started building.  If I were doing it I would go with titanium SIC's.  I would get one KB and the rest KT's.  The KB would go right after the 5.5M.  I just weighed the set I'm going to use on a new rod, and to use up stuff I have on hand I have a KLH 16 stainless, a KLH 8 stainless, a 5.5M titanium, a KB4 titanium, and 5 KT4 titaniums.  The whole set (all SIC rings) weighed .141 oz.  9 guides at .141.  This brings what DVT was arguing into perspective.  

4 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Are those proper runners I linked?

See my other comment.  The link doesn't show the size.  If you go into the 4 and 4.5 size you need to be prepared to tie some pretty small knots, like FG or at least an Alberto in order to get the knots between braid and leader through the guides somewhat cleanly.  

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

5 minutes ago, MickD said:

You can go Torzite if you want the absolute best, but they are very pricey for little value over SIC.  I have NEVER grooved any guide of any material, and I used a lot of cheapies before I started building.  If I were doing it I would go with titanium SIC's.  I would get one KB and the rest KT's.  The KB would go right after the 5.5M.  I just weighed the set I'm going to use on a new rod, and to use up stuff I have on hand I have a KLH 16 stainless, a KLH 8 stainless, a 5.5M titanium, a KB4 titanium, and 5 KT4 titaniums.  The whole set (all SIC rings) weighed .141 oz.  9 guides at .141.  This brings what DVT was arguing into perspective.  

For me I'm looking at it as I'm going to put the best of the best into this. The 15% off sale will almost cover the jump to torzite. 

[MickD]

1 hour ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

I have a couple of rods that weigh less than 3 oz and they are built on Rainshadow Immortal blanks with Minima or Mudhole SSR guides. 

The real issue is the length and objective power, not described power.  What is the blank length and  ERN of the blanks on which they are built?  The two biggest components of rod weight are the weight of the blank and the weight of the reel seat.  Everyone brags about their light rods without even knowing the objective specs for them.  

2 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

For me I'm looking at it as I'm going to put the best of the best into this. The 15% off sale will almost cover the jump to torzite.

Go for it!  Love the attitude.  I'm a little cheap.  But I have a LOT of rods.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

10 minutes ago, MickD said:

You can go Torzite if you want the absolute best, but they are very pricey for little value over SIC.  I have NEVER grooved any guide of any material, and I used a lot of cheapies before I started building.  If I were doing it I would go with titanium SIC's.  I would get one KB and the rest KT's.  The KB would go right after the 5.5M.  I just weighed the set I'm going to use on a new rod, and to use up stuff I have on hand I have a KLH 16 stainless, a KLH 8 stainless, a 5.5M titanium, a KB4 titanium, and 5 KT4 titaniums.  The whole set (all SIC rings) weighed .141 oz.  9 guides at .141.  This brings what DVT was arguing into perspective.  

See my other comment.  The link doesn't show the size.  If you go into the 4 and 4.5 size you need to be prepared to tie some pretty small knots, like FG or at least an Alberto in order to get the knots between braid and leader through the guides somewhat cleanly.  

I'll fish straight fluorocarbon or opt for copoly if the fc line is too much to deal with. Never a connection knots to pass through the guides

[MickD]

3 minutes ago, MickD said:

I'm going to put the best of the best into this

The best of the best for the blank, IMHO, is the Point Blank 701MLF.  You may go lighter, but you won't get the same power, and you won't get a faster recovery, I've tested all the best for true natural frequency, and PB is the best.  Period.

1 minute ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

I'll fish straight fluorocarbon or opt for copoly if the fc line is too much to deal with. Never a connection knots to pass through the guides

Then any size guide will work.  

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

27 minutes ago, MickD said:

Then any size guide will work

I just bought the 20h 10h 5.5m and 4x 4.5 kts. All titanium torzite, for less than a hundred. I figured I'd play it safe. I rarely fish braid to fluoro, but when I do I tie a mean Alberto Lol. I'm going to pick up the blank in a week or two, after that I'll just need a tip top ( which I figured I'd wait to buy until I knew what blank I was going to get for sizing purposes ) a reel seat / grip, thread, permagloss, reamers, etc. Long way from finished but the ball is rolling.

27 minutes ago, MickD said:

 

 

[Lead Head]

If you go with permagloss instead of epoxy, do some practice wraps on a scrap rod first. That stuff isn't super difficult to work with, but can be... unforgiving. 

[MickD]

Permagloss is a very light, tough, flexible, thin, coating and doesn't build anywhere near what epoxy wrap finish does. It is said to never yellow like epoxy ultimately will.  It has nasty fumes and hardens very fast.  Practice with it is good advice, IMHO.  It will probably require a number of coats to get a look you like.  But it definitely is a good, serviceable, coating.

 

In the past it had problems hardening in the bottle before one could use it but improved packaging has about solved that, I think. I have a bottle in my fridge that I've had for a couple years and it's still good.

[Deephaven]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:23 AM, MickD said:

Very true, but I wanted to point out that there is a performance cost for those footballs some builders seem to like. 

 

It can be measured.  I have a process for measuring the true natural frequency (TNF) of a blank or rod that shows the difference in frequency between KT4 stainless and KT4 titaniums.  Titaniums degrade the natural frequency less than stainless guides do, resulting in a faster recovery time for the rod.  The process shows that some premium blanks have higher natural frequencies than others, often by a significant margin.  The process can show whether a specific guide set or tiiptop affects TNF more or less than another. 

 

When a builder is going for the ultimate, little differences can become significant.   The process is possible with miniumal equipment, the most important is an Android phone, Kindle, or tablet plus a free app.  The butt has to be restrained, but forces are low, deflections minor; meaning it is safe and doesn't risk damage to the blank.  It no longer takes expensive equipment to measure the response time of blanks and rods. 

 

Many believe that sensitivity is proportional to true natural frequency.  It has been argued for years that sensitivity is proportional to stiffness to weight ratio, and TNF is a measure of stiffness to weight ratio.  If true, and I think it generally is, then there is a method of actually measuring the value of different components in maintaining the sensitivity of the blank through the build.  TNF clearly directly measures recovery time.

 

Anyone wishing to get the details on the process may PM me and I'll send a short, simple , tutorial.

Considering the other excitation of the fish is not modal in behavior measuring the natural frequency is really only an indicator that describes stiffness.  A floppy rod will definitely have a lower first bending mode than a stiffer one.

 If you have any data that draws other conclusions or papers I would love to see them.

[uno]

Hate to throw a wrench in your plans after you bought the guides, but 4 runners may not be enough. I usually have 8 total guides on a 7 ft spinning rod. You may even need 9 depending on how fast the action on the blank is. This is more advanced stuff, but since you are jumping into the deep end with high quality parts, you might as well build the best rod you can. The smaller the length of the blank that bends under moderate pressure (how fast the action is) the more guides you will need to get a good line path. If you don't put enough, your line will have flat spots and not follow the curve of the rod. The two line technique on anglers resource will help you visualize this. 

[uno]

I see you are on the rod building site now, which is great. Best place you can get info. Guess I will continue here because I started here. I know CCS has been talking about, but wanted to give you some info in one place. "Medium light" doesn't mean anything, every blank maker is different. I looked up some good options, in order of power, strongest to weakest: PB701MLF 530, PB701LXF 430, NFC xray 732 422, SCV 70 ML 375, Batson eternity 72MLF 343, NFC 703 343. These are all CCS numbers which is the number of grams required to bend a rod 33% of its length. As you can see the point blank "light" is more powerful than all the other "medium lights." Also, note that the NFC 2 power rod is more powerful than the NFC 3 power rod. Having said all this, were I building the rod, I would probably give the PB701LXF a try.

[Chris Catignani]

1 hour ago, uno said:

... As you can see the point blank "light" is more powerful than all the other "medium lights." ...

I have really never been much into all the various different kinds of blanks....BUT...

If CCS is about how many grams it take to bend a rod 33% of its length...

then looking at those numbers means nothing when comparing an extra fast rod to a medium rod. An extra fast rod (who tips section bends say on the top 15-20% of the rod) will, in some cases, have a higher number than its medium counterpart. I may have this wrong...but I have for the most part just ignored the CSS stuff to a point.

[uno]

I should explain CCS a little better. It measures intrinsic power by figuring the amount of weight it takes to bend the rod a distance equal to 33% of the length. For example on a 7 foot rod, it is the weight to pull the tip 28 inches from the horizontal. Yes, 33% is arbitrary. Yes, rods with the same IP and different action angles feel different. However, it is objective a way as is possible to measure blanks. Also, the blanks above have action angles from 73 to 78, so they are all on the fast to extra fast range, and thus power measurements can be compared pretty well. Otherwise you are stuck with advice like "St. Croix blanks tend to be more powerful than their rating" which is true sometimes, but clearly not true above, at least in relation to point blank, or even what NFC call a 2 power.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

19 hours ago, Lead Head said:

If you go with permagloss instead of epoxy, do some practice wraps on a scrap rod first. That stuff isn't super difficult to work with, but can be... unforgiving. 

I'll make some wraps on my frog rod, thing is ready to retire. Is it alone and done coat or multiple?