Looking to build the lightest spinning rod possible

[MikeK]

3 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

I can’t begin to address all the misstatements in this thread. Suffice to say the lightest AND best performance guide train for finesse bass spinning is Fuji Titanium Torzite reduction train klh 20h 10h 5.5m 5.5kb recoil runners and Torzite top. Fuji VSS seat up locking cork or Eva, no rear grip and short fighting butt. The weight saving of permagloss is negligible and irrelevant to performance. Short wraps, no decals. The van stahl is a nice reel but I’m not sure it’s the best match to this build. You will not get a sub 3oz finished rod. Sun 4 will be a win. That’s not to be discouraging just realistic. 

Shimano Vanford is a pretty light reel.  Fuji DPSM 17 with a short CFX carbon fiber front/rear grips is a little lighter than Fuji VSS with either cork or EVA.  For the guide train Sea Guide Titanium/Si Nitride reduction guides with Fuji Torzite runners is the lightest overall combination.

 

What you proposed is a quality setup but don't be so dismissive of folks who answer the actual question. ?

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

575-600 grams.

Response time of the rod is part of performance.  With all due respect for your expertise, I invite you to show us your objective data supporting this statement.  The variability of epoxy covered wraps is vast.  There is definitely an advantage in response time of the rod with having a wrap covered in Permagloss vs a football of epoxy times 4-6 guides on a light tip of an Xfast action rod built on a premium blank.  Built on an old Ugli Stick, no, but on a new premium blank, yes.  The OP asked for how to attain the ultimate.  Unless something like Permagloss is used on the wraps, it will not be the ultimate. 

Ultimate has a nice ring to it. ?

22 minutes ago, MikeK said:

Shimano Vanford is a pretty light reel.  Fuji DPSM 17 with a short CFX carbon fiber front/rear grips is a little lighter than Fuji VSS with either cork or EVA.  For the guide train Sea Guide Titanium/Si Nitride reduction guides with Fuji Torzite runners is the lightest overall combination.

 

What you proposed is a quality setup but don't be so dismissive of folks who answer the actual question. ?

I love carbon fiber. ? How's the comfort of that grip configuration?

 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

2 hours ago, MickD said:

575-600 grams.

Response time of the rod is part of performance.  With all due respect for your expertise, I invite you to show us your objective data supporting this statement.  The variability of epoxy covered wraps is vast.  There is definitely an advantage in response time of the rod with having a wrap covered in Permagloss vs a football of epoxy times 4-6 guides on a light tip of an Xfast action rod built on a premium blank.  Built on an old Ugli Stick, no, but on a new premium blank, yes.  The OP asked for how to attain the ultimate.  Unless something like Permagloss is used on the wraps, it will not be the ultimate.  

Epoxy doesn’t have to be a football glob first of all and there’s no data for 90% of this. In hand, fishing a build as described I don’t believe the difference could be felt. Just trying to save a new builder from driving himself nuts over thinking things. Sometimes that’s half the fun of this though. To each his own, that’s the core of custom 

41 minutes ago, MikeK said:

Shimano Vanford is a pretty light reel.  Fuji DPSM 17 with a short CFX carbon fiber front/rear grips is a little lighter than Fuji VSS with either cork or EVA.  For the guide train Sea Guide Titanium/Si Nitride reduction guides with Fuji Torzite runners is the lightest overall combination.

 

What you proposed is a quality setup but don't be so dismissive of folks who answer the actual question. ?

Lightest doesn’t by itself doesn’t equate to best performance. The KR system uses fewer, smaller reduction guides. AmTac makes something close but I forget the model. I don’t believe Torzite are lighter than recoils but the difference either way is minute. Differing opinions aren’t dismissive and my apologies if I came across that way 

[MikeK]

35 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Ultimate has a nice ring to it. ?

I love carbon fiber. ? How's the comfort of that grip configuration?

 

The grips are 1-1/2" long which is comfortable for the way I hold a spinning reel with stem behind ring finger.  The CFX grips from Mud Hole are textured which is also fine with me.  I haven't used any other brands.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

15 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

The KR system uses fewer, smaller reduction guides.

This in your opinion is the best performing guide system?

[uno]

If you run braid 10 lb or less, and can tie an FG knot for the leader, you can run guides 16H 8H 5.5L to size 4 runners. I also find the VSS (or IPS) seats very comfortable and would go that direction. KR guide concept is the best by far when it comes to saving weight.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

21 hours ago, uno said:

phenix k2

The 7'1” ML has a range of 1/16-5/8 lure rating and a 4-12 line rating? That's a big range!I wonder if it's slightly overstated?

13 minutes ago, uno said:

If you run braid 10 lb or less, and can tie an FG knot for the leader, you can run guides 16H 8H 5.5L to size 4 runners. I also find the VSS (or IPS) seats very comfortable and would go that direction. KR guide concept is the best by far when it comes to saving weight.

I really gotta practice the FG. I'm terrible at connection knots. I'll run 6lb fluoro on this setup 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

19 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

This in your opinion is the best performing guide system?

Yes. It’s a rapid choke system. You can see it explained on the Anglers Resource site. As pointed out by UNO you can go smaller with light enough line. 

[uno]

Yes, the K2 range is overstated at the top end. They fish lighter than rated.

[MikeK]

I use P-Line CXX 6# copolymer with DVTs 20H, 10H, 5.5M setup and it works very well.  It is a bit limper than a lot of the fluorocarbon.  Sunline FC (Sniper I think) is comparable but so much more expensive.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

17 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

Yes. It’s a rapid choke system. You can see it explained on the Anglers Resource site. As pointed out by UNO you can go smaller with light enough line. 

I just checked out the videos. Seems like a good direction for guides. 

6 minutes ago, MikeK said:

I use P-Line CXX 6# copolymer with DVTs 20H, 10H, 5.5M setup and it works very well.  It is a bit limper than a lot of the fluorocarbon.  Sunline FC (Sniper I think) is comparable but so much more expensive.

I fish sniper, haven't ever put time in with copoly. Probably time I give it a rip one day and see how I like it. Might have to be forced to make the switch after this build lol. Might also be wrapping my guides in small diameter braid to save too. ?

[MickD]

11 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

Epoxy doesn’t have to be a football glob first of all and there’s no data for 90% of this.

Very true, but I wanted to point out that there is a performance cost for those footballs some builders seem to like. 

 

It can be measured.  I have a process for measuring the true natural frequency (TNF) of a blank or rod that shows the difference in frequency between KT4 stainless and KT4 titaniums.  Titaniums degrade the natural frequency less than stainless guides do, resulting in a faster recovery time for the rod.  The process shows that some premium blanks have higher natural frequencies than others, often by a significant margin.  The process can show whether a specific guide set or tiiptop affects TNF more or less than another. 

 

When a builder is going for the ultimate, little differences can become significant.   The process is possible with miniumal equipment, the most important is an Android phone, Kindle, or tablet plus a free app.  The butt has to be restrained, but forces are low, deflections minor; meaning it is safe and doesn't risk damage to the blank.  It no longer takes expensive equipment to measure the response time of blanks and rods. 

 

Many believe that sensitivity is proportional to true natural frequency.  It has been argued for years that sensitivity is proportional to stiffness to weight ratio, and TNF is a measure of stiffness to weight ratio.  If true, and I think it generally is, then there is a method of actually measuring the value of different components in maintaining the sensitivity of the blank through the build.  TNF clearly directly measures recovery time.

 

Anyone wishing to get the details on the process may PM me and I'll send a short, simple , tutorial.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

13 hours ago, uno said:

Yes, the K2 range is overstated at the top end. They fish lighter than rated.

I thought so. Thank you for clearing that up for me. I'm going to sit down and do some research tonight since it's my Friday. I'm between the mudhole elite x and the k2. I think both would be amazing. Just figuring which will be best for me. 

 

 

Aside from everything else talked about, how recommended is it to maybe build something super cheap as a true practice run vs trying to get it right on something super high end the first go round??

 

[MickD]

Just now, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Aside from everything else talked about, how recommended is it to maybe build something super cheap as a true practice run vs trying to get it right on something super high end the first go round??

I think this is a very smart strategy.  I recommend starting with a kit, and before that review the good tutorials at places like Flexcoat.com and Mudhole.com.  Additionally the Library at this site has excellent information.  https://www.rodbuilding.org/library/library.html

 

I don't know exactly what "super cheap" is, but get what appears to be a decent kit from Mudhole.com or Getbitoutdoors.com, and maybe  there are other sources I'm not familiar with.  Search on line for "fishing rod building kit" and see what you get.

 

There are an untold number of videos on line, search by the subject you are interested in, including the word "video."  Keep in mind that what you will be seeing are opinions and everything may not be fact, that there are many ways of doing different  things, and when we describe what we are doing to others, we may not always include the subtle things we are doing to make it work.  Don't hesitate to ask specific questions on rodbuilding forums.  

[Chris Catignani]

9 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Aside from everything else talked about, how recommended is it to maybe build something super cheap as a true practice run vs trying to get it right on something super high end the first go round??

Another additional option is to take one of the rods you have and make some mods or improvements. Like add a hook keeper...strip and replace the guide...shorten/lenthen the butt grip...just a thought.

[MickD]

7 minutes ago, Chris Catignani said:

Another additional option is to take one of the rods you have and make some mods or improvements. Like add a hook keeper...strip and replace the guide...shorten/lenthen the butt grip...just a thought.

Good advice, too.  One thing that always stumps new builders is reel seat location-what is important is where the reel is, not the seat.  Seats vary.  But one good way to locate it is to do it in the same location as a rod you have that you like.  Or put it close, then move it a little if you feel you can improve on it (seats can be taped to a blank for evaluation before gluing in place.  

 

One of my first  spin rods I made I used a stock rear grip and it put the reel too far forward.  It ended up snagging my elbow area when going from tip up to down and vice versa.  I ended up having to cut 1 1/2 inches off the butt to fix the ergonomics.  Since then I've used the rod for many years and it's been a good rod.  But I still regret cutting 1 1/2 inches off the butt of a $160 blank.  On another rod I mis-aligned the guide with respect to the seat/reel stem.  I had to totally rebuild that one.  Moral:  Your first or second build will usually not be the best work you are capable of doing once you get some experience under your belt. 

[casts_by_fly]

1 hour ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Aside from everything else talked about, how recommended is it to maybe build something super cheap as a true practice run vs trying to get it right on something super high end the first go round??

 

 

Yes.  Rod building isn't hard but there is a learning curve.  I'm assuming that you want to build this very specific rod because you have a specific and ongoing need.  That tells me you want this to be one of your primary rods for a long time, not one that is a niche technique you'll fish a couple times a year.  So in that case, make it nice.  No sense spending a couple hundred bucks on components if you're going to assemble it with epoxy all over the place, thread tags left sticking out, etc.

 

My recco would be to find an application that you will use occasionally (or could gift to someone) to get the basic techniques down.  An inexpensive kit is a good shout.  Practice thread wraps and finishing on the butt end which will end up being covered by the grip or seat in the end.  Its also easier to wrap on a stiffer section than on a tip section.  If possible, pick the same color blank and thread that you're going to use on the final rod so you can get get a feel for what it will look like and if that's what you want.  

 

Heck, this thread has me wanting to build a similar rod.  I don't fish a spinning rod enough to justify it, plus I have a pair of spinning rods here that do well enough.  But this is a fun exercise.

 

thanks,

rick

[uno]

I actually wouldn't get a kit. It's a nice way to get everything, but it removes the effort and learning involved to pick components. Also I hate the giant heavy guides they tend to come with. I would pick a nice but inexpensive blank (rainshadow rx6, mudhole crb) and get a set of Fuji fazlite KR system guides so you can learn how they work. Then pick whatever reel seat and handle you like. Nothing wrong with kits, but for spinning rods at least I think the guides they come with really hurt the performance of a rod. 

[Chris Catignani]

19 minutes ago, uno said:

... and get a set of Fuji fazlite KR system guides ...

I've been buys different kinds of guides lately and got some fazlite to put a rod for myself.

I love the blue ceramic! Kind of reminds me a little of agate.

[MickD]

All good points.  The advantage of a kit is that it familiarizes one with the parts and processes.  I still at times don't exactly know what to buy.  

 

Fuji fazlites are fine guides for a very fair price.  Use the right software on the anglersresource site to match the KR guides (to locate the reduction guides).  Use the two line stress test to locate the runners.  I would not go super small on the runners, the smallest ones are tough to wrap.  I'd suggest 5.5's for a first rod.  They still are probably smaller than you're used to.

 

 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

9 hours ago, casts_by_fly said:

 

Yes.  Rod building isn't hard but there is a learning curve.  I'm assuming that you want to build this very specific rod because you have a specific and ongoing need.  That tells me you want this to be one of your primary rods for a long time, not one that is a niche technique you'll fish a couple times a year.  So in that case, make it nice.  No sense spending a couple hundred bucks on components if you're going to assemble it with epoxy all over the place, thread tags left sticking out, etc.

 

My recco would be to find an application that you will use occasionally (or could gift to someone) to get the basic techniques down.  An inexpensive kit is a good shout.  Practice thread wraps and finishing on the butt end which will end up being covered by the grip or seat in the end.  Its also easier to wrap on a stiffer section than on a tip section.  If possible, pick the same color blank and thread that you're going to use on the final rod so you can get get a feel for what it will look like and if that's what you want.  

 

Heck, this thread has me wanting to build a similar rod.  I don't fish a spinning rod enough to justify it, plus I have a pair of spinning rods here that do well enough.  But this is a fun exercise.

 

thanks,

rick

I junk fish... this rod fills a very big spot in the line up. I carry one spinning rod and I want to go all out on one. Ive always bought nice casting gear but bought bargain type spinning gear.( Not ugly sticks but not NRXs either. ) This time I'd rather try building something amazing vs buying it. I feel like the value that I get in a custom is going to get me something that to buy from a high-end retailer I would not pay for. Lol 

 

As far as where this trial run rod would go. Probably make a nice walleye rig for my Dad. That's a great idea.

 

 

 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

I think 6lb braid could definitely be used in place of size a thread. Both have a .005 diameter. Almost feel like it could work well. ?

[MickD]

Many braids have a coating for lubricity, and they have no stretch, which nylon wrapping thread has, and which helps to keep it tight to the blank.  Using braid for guide wraps may or  may not work.  What I know will work is nylon or polyester wrapping thread.  Thread designed for rod building.

 

If you want to buy something locally that will work, then the polyneon embroidery threads available in sewing shops will work IF you use color preservative to keep the lubes in it from affecting the epoxy coating and to retain its color.  

 

The rayon embroidery threads are to be totally avoided.  Even CP will not save their color. 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

On 4/13/2022 at 7:15 PM, uno said:

If you run braid 10 lb or less, and can tie an FG knot for the leader, you can run guides 16H 8H 5.5L to size 4 runners. I also find the VSS (or IPS) seats very comfortable and would go that direction. KR guide concept is the best by far when it comes to saving weight.

Would this guide size also work well for straight fluorocarbon? 

[MickD]

Yes.  straight floro is only about .3 mm for 16 pound test, the ID of size 4 runners is way above that.