Looking to build the lightest spinning rod possible

[MickD]

My opinion on spin seats is that 16 is too small for almost everyone.  I use size 17's and find them fine.  I have a 9 inch span from thumb to little finger tips.  

 

I find sizes larger than 17 a bit "cumbersome" on my lighter rods.  I have built with 18's a couple times, but for my hand size, 17's work fine for all my spin.

 

Make your decision based on your hand size and priorities ergonomics/comfort vs weight.  Fuji DPSSD in size 17 weighs .8 oz.

 

I think you are meaning Permagloss and Lumiseal.  I have only used Permagloss but I believe they are equivalent moisture curing polyurethanes.  You won't get the "epoxy look"  from either.  Both will not yellow with time/exposure to UV.  

[Chris Catignani]

8 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

 U-40 the same company that makes permagloss sells a 2 part finish called duragloss. I did see the car stuff in my web search. Lol I'm not against a thin coat of epoxy. I'm not against permagloss. I'm just spending time while I wait for NFC to get my blank to me to educate myself. 

 

Oh...OK...sorry about that. LS Supreme (Duragloss) is a two part epoxy and Permagloss is a urethane. Either one is good. The Permagloss with take several coats to get a thickness that covers the thread completely.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

https://www.u-40.com/products.aspx?itemid=3299&prodid=16533&pagetitle=Dura-Gloss-LS-Supreme

 

 

This is what I found, it appears to just be a less watery option from the same company. I might buy a few different types and see what I like to work with. 

 

 

 

 

I like the "never yellow" idea that comes with the u40 products. It just seems that they're the least user friendly. People either love it or hate it. 

[casts_by_fly]

11 hours ago, Chris Catignani said:

Duragloss is for washing cars...permagloss is for finishing a rod blank. Now ...you can use permagloss as a finish. But epoxy is pretty much the standard today. In the old days BFC (before Flex Coat) people use varnish...and it took about 5 coats to make it look like one coat of FC. If your intent on using the lightest finish humanly possible...then just a coat of something like Carters Crystal Clear Color Preserver and call it done.

 

The very first rod that my dad and I built together (Pac Bay IM6 maroon blank, 9' 4 wt) we used minwax polyurethane.  It works great, kinda like a poor man's version of permagloss- same properties except it yellows like none other.  The wraps were cherry red, no color preserver, gold trim.  So the yellowing from the finish over time didn't matter.  I couldn't tell you how it looks now though, it was stolen from the back of my buddy's jeep 20 years ago when he borrowed it.

 

 

2 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

https://www.u-40.com/products.aspx?itemid=3299&prodid=16533&pagetitle=Dura-Gloss-LS-Supreme

 

 

This is what I found, it appears to just be a less watery option from the same company. I might buy a few different types and see what I like to work with. 

 

I like the "never yellow" idea that comes with the u40 products. It just seems that they're the least user friendly. People either love it or hate it. 

 

All epoxies will yellow eventually with UV exposure.  Its just a fact of life.  How long it takes and how yellow it gets are down to the UV protectants in the coating.

 

LS Supreme is a good finish and one I would recommend for a first time rod builder for a couple reasons.  Its a good build thickness.  Permagloss is watery and (for the look I want) takes 8-10 coats.  That's a lot of time and I get bored going over the same guides again and again.  Other high build epoxies (I never got along with Flexcote) are too easy to use too much and don't flow well enough for me unless it is 90 degrees in the room (more on that in a minute).  My application method is two coats with any epoxy I'm using.  The first coat is to fill tunnels, wet the wraps, and have enough build that its all covered, but that I can still feel a little bit of the threads here and there if I run a fingernail over them.  The second coat is to put a thin, even coat across the wraps that levels out and makes for the thinnest coat that has no dips or bumps.  All of the important functional stuff happens on the first coat.  Coat two is aesthetics and protection.

 

Another good thing about LS supreme is the working life.  Working life of a mixed pot of epoxy varies with room temperature and epoxy blend.  I remember using one epoxy that was great in all facets, except you had about 10 minutes to get it on the wraps before it was starting to thicken.  The 30-40 minutes claimed on LS is about right.For a beginner, the more working time you have the more flexibility you have if you make a mistake.  Sure, you can always just throw the pot away and start again but in reality you're going to try to fix it and get it done.

 

Lastly, the LS kits have the syringes and for single rod jobs by a beginner a syringe is mandatory.  When I was doing lots of rods I would use a clear disposable cup with marks and its fine, but a syringe is more accurate.

 

I would recommend that you use LS Supreme for all of the above reasons.  At the end of the day, you're putting on an organic poly urea/urethane/epoxy coating to a certain thickness.  It doesn't matter which of the chemistries you're using, the difference in weight between them is negligible.  So then use the one that gives you the best chance of success in making a rod for a lifetime.

 

thanks

rick

[uno]

Flex coat light. Two thin coats. The only size 16 reel seat that is comfortable is Fuji IPS, mostly because it is larger than a typical size 16.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

On 4/29/2022 at 10:29 AM, casts_by_fly said:

it was stolen from the back of my buddy's jeep 20 years ago when he borrowed it.

Man I'm sorry to hear that. Some people suck. 

 

 

Thank you for your input on the subject!!

 

After fishing a buddy of mines legend elites for a weekend I've opted for a size 17 Fuji TVS reel seat. I think I will run it up locking and go with a small nub transitioning from reel seat to the blank. It was very comfortable in my hand. One is on the way, along with some minimal carbon fiber accents. Can't wait to share build progress with you guys!

 

On 4/29/2022 at 10:29 AM, casts_by_fly said:

 

What's everyone's preference on arbors? What are the benefits of poly foam vs graphite vs tape? 

[MickD]

I only use masking tape when the wall thickness of a polyurethane arbout would get too small.  I don't use dry wall tape (too messy, hard to handle), and don't use the black Fuji hard graphite because they are difficult for me to get to the size I need.  The white/ivory colored rigid polyurethane arbors are very light, easy to ream,  and work great.  I usually will use two of about 1 1/2 inch length on a seat.  Use liberal epoxy to assure a lifetime bond. If using masking tape totally encapsulate the tape arbor so it will not deteriorate if water gets in.  I have even used them for ramps off the ends of spin seats and with a couple coats of wrapy epoxy on them, they have lasted fine.  There is nothing that works so well and is as light.

[Chris Catignani]

11 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

What's everyone's preference on arbors? What are the benefits of poly foam vs graphite vs tape? 

I will use the poly urethane arbors when I can...they are by far the lightest and the most sensitive.

When the tolerances are really, really thin...I will take and crush a scrap piece of graphite rod and make a shim.

I also have used the mesh drywall tape. You wrap in on and then take thread to hold it it place.

I dont like the masking tape period. Every reel seat I ever had to repair used masking tape. The tape (basically the adhesive) will break down over time. Plus it weighs more and is a less sensitive material.

[MickD]

I agree that polyurethane is the best answer, but I don't agree that all masking tape arbors are destined to fail.  I recently took apart a rod I made decades ago and the masking tape arbor was still in fine shape.  I have always wrapped them very tightly so they feel rock hard, and always totally encapsulate them in epoxy.  The failures I've repaired have either been cardboard arbors, called boxboard by the recyclers, or factory rods that didn't use nearly enough epoxy.  Keep the surface prep issue in mind, too.   https://www.rodbuilding.org/library/waterfree.html

 

Keep in mind too that if you do the gluing of the seat to grip properly no water will be getting into the arbor even if it's not totally encapsulated.  

 

But it's good advice to use polyurethane whenever you can, IMHO. 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Is it a good idea to epoxy the reel seat, grips, and arbors all together to be reamed as 1 piece? Or is this a terrible idea? 

[cyclops2]

Long rods always favor the fish. WE are using a lever to pull the fish to use.

The fish is using the LONG lever to make lifting more difficult.

 

Dinner time

 

[Chris Catignani]

2 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Is it a good idea to epoxy the reel seat, grips, and arbors all together to be reamed as 1 piece? Or is this a terrible idea? 

You could do the seat and the arbor as one piece....but I would install the grips and seat separate.

[uno]

Glue the arbor or arbors into the insert. Ream the insert. Ream any cork separately. Then glue it all up.

[MickD]

Always do a "dry assembly" assembling all parts together without epoxy, EVERY piece including winding checks if you use them, before even starting to mix your epoxy. Have everything laid out logically.

 

Have paper towels and alcohol handy for clean up of the epoxy immediately after glueing parts, going over it a number of times to ensure you have it all.  Be careful of tracking epoxy onto the blank away from the seat/grips area.  

 

Once epoxy cures it is about impossible to get it off without damaging the blank or grip parts.

 

[casts_by_fly]

Dry Fit the arbor to the blank. Dry fit the seat on top. When you’re happy  glue it in place. 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

On 5/1/2022 at 5:57 PM, uno said:

 

Well guys, the wrapper should be here this weekend along with some epoxy and thread finish, and a bunch of thread, I got a cheapo rod from goodwill that I'm going to practice on before I take the step to my build. I'm going to start sharing pictures for opinions and pointers as I practice, NFC has my blank on the way, grips are also en route, reel seat is shipping from Japan, should be around 2 weeks I was told. All the pieces to the puzzle are almost here!!

[Lead Head]

Good luck. Looking forward to pictures of your progress. I hope you understand the massive rabbit hole you are peeking down right now. This stuff is addictive, I just ordered the stuff to build a Point Blank jig rod that I don't need. I'm building it for no reason other than I want to try a Point Blank. Before long, every rod you carry will be one you built.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

2 hours ago, Lead Head said:

I hope you understand the massive rabbit hole you are peeking down right now

Now the bait monkey ain't the only monkey I gotta feed. No doubt about it, I'm already searching out what I want in a jig rod. Lol my excitement has me talking about it to a couple buddies who are now interested in customs, might recoup a couple bucks there ?glad you decided to stick around to check out the process!!

[Lead Head]

Its funny, I commonly refer to a rabbit hole when its actually a skyscraper sized sinkhole. I would hate to see the size of the rabbit that would come out of it.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Stranger things type monster rabbits ?

[MickD]

3 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

buddies who are now interested in customs, might recoup a couple bucks there

You might keep in mind the hassles that can arise when you start selling.  Federal Excise Tax, warranty issues, response to rod abuse, time pressures, nebulous not-objectively-stated expectations.  You probably have noticed the discussions on the subjective specs most companies use and how different people interpret them differently.  Even within the same company often the action and power specs are all over the map depending on the technique they are pushing the blank for.   I only build for me, my family, and a local educational charity.  

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

That's all I would build for, good friends and family, and not necessarily for a big profit but to just recoup some of my supply costs. If things go well I would definitely be interested in doing some donations too, possibly to veterans. I don't want a business out of this at all, my job pays me enough. I'm just trying to find a hobby for when I'm not on the water. 

I just researched the whole federal excise tax thing and it just sounds like more responsibility than I want to deal with not to mention all the other things you mentioned. 

 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Any reason I couldn't use rubber o rings to help in placing my guides? I can get them super cheap on Amazon.

[MickD]

7 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

Any reason I couldn't use rubber o rings to help in placing my guides? I can get them super cheap on Amazon.

The problem I have with rings to hold guides on is that they have to be slid down the length of the blank and you need a few sizes to work well.  Also, they don't, in my opinion, work that well with the really small feet of the Fuji KT micros I use.  For the stress test (use a version of the two line test on Fuji's site or elsewhere-easier since the guides don't take the load of stressing the blank and they can be moved without unloading the blank).  Many do use rings; I just have  never found them as handy as :  First I use narrow masking tape to initially locate and hold the guides for the stress test.  When I get them located I mark their location on the blank with a china marker just a little off from their desired position (so I can wipe the mark off after the guide is wrapped).  I then use hot melt, just a tiny bit, applied to the foot of the guide to stick it to the blank in the proper place for wrapping, then wrap the guide.  It takes a little practice to get this down pat, but I have made it work.  After wrapping the alignment of the guides can still be adjusted slightly before (and after) applying CP.  Once epoxy is applied you will NOT be able to move a guide at all.  Which is what you want.

[MickD]

I just thought of something else that may not be obvious, be very careful in handling the rod with the guides only on by some temporary measure because if a KT or similar micro guide falls off, you may not find it.  When I take  my builds to the garage for the stress test I always  have a line passed through the guides so if one falls off the blank it will be held by the line (which is fastened at both ends to the blank).