Looking to build the lightest spinning rod possible

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

I'm new to rod building as this will be my first. Hopefully someone here can guide me to find the lightest components available to build a rod that will serve many purposes. Casting and vertical jigging for walleye, Ned rigs, light Shakey heads, and finesse swimbait. I'll run a vanford with 6-10lb fluoro. This rod will never see anything north of 3/8 oz combined weight of trailer and jig head. 7' ML is what I'm shooting for. How light can something like this be made? Once I acquire all of the components I'll be back for guidance on my build. I'm confident in my ability, but I know some of you guys have some tricks and stuff that will allow me to really build something special. 

Price is not really a factor considering the price of buying something on this level assembled will cost

[casts_by_fly]

If you are strictly going for weight I think you’ll come in around 2.5oz, maybe even 2oz if you’re careful.  You can get a blank around 1.2 oz for the length and power. An amtak bravos or wave seat is going to be minimal weight and if you use a carbon bushing it adds next to nothing. I’d guess a half ounce or so. You’re definitely going split grip, so just a rear tiny butt needed for a quarter ounce.  For absolute lightest weight I think a set of small recoil guides would be the lightest.  A set of small fly guides for the running guides plus 3 recoil spinning guides would be around 0.05 oz.  You’ll have epoxy and adhesives, winding check or two, hook keeper if you want. I think you’d be just over 2 ounces. 
 

all that said, light weight is great but just make sure the compromises you’re making are still fishable for you.  A little heavier of a reel seat or rear grip doesn’t change the fishability and might even pull the tip up in use. 
 

thanks

rick

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

That's nuts!! My lightest rod currently comes in at 3.8 and I constantly find myself constantly reaching for it because of how comfortable it is to use. What brand and model blank comes in at 1.2??

6 minutes ago, casts_by_fly said:

If you are strictly going for weight I think you’ll come in around 2.5oz, maybe even 2oz if you’re careful.  You can get a blank around 1.2 oz for the length and power. An amtak bravos or wave seat is going to be minimal weight and if you use a carbon bushing it adds next to nothing. I’d guess a half ounce or so. You’re definitely going split grip, so just a rear tiny butt needed for a quarter ounce.  For absolute lightest weight I think a set of small recoil guides would be the lightest.  A set of small fly guides for the running guides plus 3 recoil spinning guides would be around 0.05 oz.  You’ll have epoxy and adhesives, winding check or two, hook keeper if you want. I think you’d be just over 2 ounces. 
 

thanks

rick

Thanks for the advice!! I'll definitely be back and forth as I acquire the components.

[casts_by_fly]

7 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

That's nuts!! My lightest rod currently comes in at 3.8 and I constantly find myself constantly reaching for it because of how comfortable it is to use. What brand and model blank comes in at 1.2??

Thanks for the advice!! I'll definitely be back and forth as I acquire the components.

Mudhole elite-X  7’ 1/16-3/8 ML F. 

 

https://mudhole.com/collections/mhx-elite-x-rod-blanks/products/mhx-70-med-light-elite-x-rod-blank-np842-mhx

 

i don’t know the blank but it seems about what you want. I’m sure there are others but I’ve not built in a while so don’t know everything out there. 

[Ppennin986]

Yup mudhole

[Chris Catignani]

I recently put a set of these stainless steel guides on an old glass rod...these guides are super light.

CRB SSR Light-Medium Duty Spinning Guides - Model VXG (mudhole.com)

 

But...If your gonna send the $$ on a blank like the good one @casts_by_fly suggested then I would spend some bucks on guides too...at least alconite. I also like the Fuji Fazlite...that blue ceramic is pretty cool. Fuji K-Series Double-Foot Casting & Spinning Guides Model KW - Fazlite (mudhole.com)

 

[casts_by_fly]

28 minutes ago, Chris Catignani said:

I recently put a set of these stainless steel guides on an old glass rod...these guides are super light.

CRB SSR Light-Medium Duty Spinning Guides - Model VXG (mudhole.com)

 

But...If your gonna send the $$ on a blank like the good one @casts_by_fly suggested then I would spend some bucks on guides too...at least alconite. I also like the Fuji Fazlite...that blue ceramic is pretty cool. Fuji K-Series Double-Foot Casting & Spinning Guides Model KW - Fazlite (mudhole.com)

 

if it were mine I’d be looking at SiC Ti framed guides. I’ll take the slight weight penalty for what I think are the best guides ever made (at least that I’ve built with). 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

Is the weight difference negligible? I do hear those SiC Ti guiders are the cats pj's. Does the strength and durability justify the extra cash? I'm certainly not opposed as long as the weight difference is not going to have much impact. I'm only asking because of my lack of use with SiC Ti and I'm assuming you definitely have that. Lol

[Chris Catignani]

2 hours ago, casts_by_fly said:

if it were mine I’d be looking at SiC Ti framed guides. I’ll take the slight weight penalty for what I think are the best guides ever made (at least that I’ve built with). 

Why stop there...Torzite Titanium is the top shelf.

[MickD]

To have a rod that really doesn't make too many ergonomic compromises AND actually has what most would consider ML power (unless one uses CCS ERN or IP the power is a guessing game, open to interpretation) the rod probably will probably come in at about 3 oz.  A 1.2 oz blank of 7 foot length is not going to have real ML power. I believe about 1.5-1.6 is more like it.  

 

I won't compromise ergonomics in order to achieve even 3 oz; with full size 17 reel seats I get about 3.6 for 7 foot ML or M power (premium blanks/titanium guides), and they fish comfortably all day long.

 

 

 

Not yet mentioned are the guide wraps.  They should be no longer than just past the foot of the guide and Permagloss or similar light finish will cut the weight of the wraps.  It can be significant to the response of the finished rod.  

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

A 1.2 oz blank of 7 foot length is not going to have real ML power.

So you're saying this blank is likely to be more of a light + action? That mhx rod recommend perfectly covers the range of baits and the line I'd pair it with. 

 

What blanks would you suggest? I'm very open to opinions here and every recommendation I get I'm going to research until I make my own decision. 

 

Everyone's idea of what's best is going to be a different, I want to ask questions and do research based on recommendations to find the starting point faster and take out most of the guess work. I strongly encourage professional debate in this thread regarding the topic to gather people's experience using certain components. 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

2 hours ago, MickD said:

Not yet mentioned are the guide wraps.  They should be no longer than just past the foot of the guide

You're saying use the bare minimum wrapping material correct?

[MikeK]

2 hours ago, MickD said:

To have a rod that really doesn't make too many ergonomic compromises AND actually has what most would consider ML power . . .

Mick, this is where power measurements like CCS IP shine.  I'm not familiar with the techniques the OP describes.  What would be the power range he is looking for?

[casts_by_fly]

9 minutes ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

You're saying use the bare minimum wrapping material correct?

 

for sure.  A half a dozen wraps or so past the end of the guide foot.  The thread itself is pretty light, but the finish has to cover it and that will add a bit of weight.  Since you're going for minimal, every little helps.  Like Mick said, permagloss is (I think) the lightest finish to get a full coating, but It takes too many coats for me.  I'm a 2-part epoxy guy with the first coat just enough to wet the wraps and fill the tunnels.

 

8 hours ago, Chris Catignani said:

Why stop there...Torzite Titanium is the top shelf.

 

because I didn't know about it?  I've been out of the game for a while (I lived in the UK and had no reason to build much of anything).

[spoonplugger1]

SkinnyWater,

What Mick is saying, is there is no such thing as a ML blank, a 6-12 line blank, a 1/8 to 3/8 oz blank, a 5 wt. fly blank. These are all manufacturer interpretations, best guesses. A St. Croix ML will not be the same as a NFC ML, or a MHX ML, the reason it makes much more sense to pick a company when you start out and learn to build from there than to use the shotgun approach and learn very little.

The very reason so many are disappointed, you hear it all the time, "This isn't a MH, it more a medium". Compared to what? "It's not a fast, it's a medium fast". How do you know it's not a power difference and not the action?

The very reason the CC system was designed, it doesn't tell you what to buy, but it will compare products in the verifiable and repeatable fashion so you can make educated decisions.

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

3 hours ago, spoonplugger1 said:

SkinnyWater,

What Mick is saying, is there is no such thing as a ML blank, a 6-12 line blank, a 1/8 to 3/8 oz blank, a 5 wt. fly blank. These are all manufacturer interpretations, best guesses. A St. Croix ML will not be the same as a NFC ML, or a MHX ML, the reason it makes much more sense to pick a company when you start out and learn to build from there than to use the shotgun approach and learn very little.

The very reason so many are disappointed, you hear it all the time, "This isn't a MH, it more a medium". Compared to what? "It's not a fast, it's a medium fast". How do you know it's not a power difference and not the action?

The very reason the CC system was designed, it doesn't tell you what to buy, but it will compare products in the verifiable and repeatable fashion so you can make educated decisions.

This makes perfect sense. I'm brand loyal to a couple companies and each time I've fished outside of those brands I find they're " too stiff" " too soft" "too heavy " etc etc etc.

11 hours ago, MickD said:

Not yet mentioned are the guide wraps.  They should be no longer than just past the foot of the guide

You're saying use the bare minimum wrapping material correct?

[MikeK]

Yes, shortest thread wraps possible with size A thread.  A thin coat of permagloss is more durable than a single thin coat of epoxy but both will still show the thread texture rather than be smooth.

[MickD]

11 hours ago, SkinnyWaterBasser said:

You're saying use the bare minimum wrapping material correct?

Yes, and not finishing with epoxy, which is heavier than Permagloss, although the difference is slight and the appearance is different.  But, if going for the absolute lightest. . .

11 hours ago, MikeK said:

Mick, this is where power measurements like CCS IP shine.  I'm not familiar with the techniques the OP describes.  What would be the power range he is looking for?

My Point Blank 701MLF has an ERN of 19.8.  Recently a person with NFC stated he was talking about an ERN of 19-21 when he mentioned MH power.  So you can see the difference in interpretation when you don't use objective measures.  I think my St Croix SCV70MF is less than 19, and it's called M power. 

[SkinnyWaterBasser]

29 minutes ago, MickD said:

But, if going for the absolute lightest. . .

Are we talking several grams more going epoxy vs permagloss? It seems like such an insignificant amount of weight in my head. ( That's my inexperience talking lol)

[uno]

Fuji titanium torzite are the lightest guides at each size, lighter than recoils (better too). You need to put on a comfortable reel seat. Weight there doesn't really matter, and there is nothing worse than an uncomfortable reel seat. The lightest blanks are the elite x mentioned above, point blank, phenix k2, and nfc xray. Stated weight may not match actual weight

[MickD]

Relative to blank weight, I have never found a discrepancy in the weight of a graphite rod blank, actual vs claimed weight.  I'm not a high volume builder, but over the years I've totaled quite a few.  The only discrepancy has been with a glass blank which weighed 2.3 oz vs a claimed weight of 2.0.  There is no logical reason why weights should vary much since  the material that goes into the blank is carefully prepared, measured, cut, and then processed.  

[MikeK]

14 hours ago, MickD said:

My Point Blank 701MLF has an ERN of 19.8.  Recently a person with NFC stated he was talking about an ERN of 19-21 when he mentioned MH power.  So you can see the difference in interpretation when you don't use objective measures.  I think my St Croix SCV70MF is less than 19, and it's called M power. 

What would you consider the IP range that matches the OP techniques?

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

I can’t begin to address all the misstatements in this thread. Suffice to say the lightest AND best performance guide train for finesse bass spinning is Fuji Titanium Torzite reduction train klh 20h 10h 5.5m 5.5kb recoil runners and Torzite top. Fuji VSS seat up locking cork or Eva, no rear grip and short fighting butt. The weight saving of permagloss is negligible and irrelevant to performance. Short wraps, no decals. The van stahl is a nice reel but I’m not sure it’s the best match to this build. You will not get a sub 3oz finished rod. Sun 4 will be a win. That’s not to be discouraging just realistic. 

[MickD]

5 hours ago, MikeK said:

What would you consider the IP range that matches the OP techniques?

575-600 grams.

2 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

The weight saving of permagloss is negligible and irrelevant to performance.

Response time of the rod is part of performance.  With all due respect for your expertise, I invite you to show us your objective data supporting this statement.  The variability of epoxy covered wraps is vast.  There is definitely an advantage in response time of the rod with having a wrap covered in Permagloss vs a football of epoxy times 4-6 guides on a light tip of an Xfast action rod built on a premium blank.  Built on an old Ugli Stick, no, but on a new premium blank, yes.  The OP asked for how to attain the ultimate.  Unless something like Permagloss is used on the wraps, it will not be the ultimate.  

[MikeK]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

575-600 grams.

Average of 15 blanks 7' or under with this power range = 2.00 oz

Lightest 7' I've measured MHX NMB843 1.75 oz, 592 IP

Lightest overall I've measured MHX MB752XF  1.64 oz, 575 IP, 6' 3"