The Live Bait problem

[N Florida Mike]

I live bait fish fairly often. I count to 15 before setting the hook. I still dont gut hook but maybe one out of 4. Before y’all are horrified by that let me say that I haven’t had 1 of those fish die to my knowledge because I know how to get a gut hooked fish  unhooked without killing it. I also found that using a small bait holder hook keeps the bait swimming more naturally and makes the bass  much easier to unhook. 

With soft plastics, I set the hook much faster but still have around the same percentage that get gut hooked. I have more of those fish die on me. I believe it’s largely because the hook is so much bigger, and the bait is smaller and easier to swallow. 

When the fish have been hard to catch on artificials thats when I switch to live bait. I dont think bass would ever tire of eating shiners and small bream. But they do seem to shy away from artificials  that are used too much… Im confident it’s not because people use shiners a lot. If a bass had a choice he would eat the shiner over an artificial…a shiner is like a steak to a bass…

[TnRiver46]

5 hours ago, WRB said:

Thrive yes, Not DD or bass over 18 lbs.

TN LMB record 15.3 lbs, my minimum is 15 lbs for giant bass.

Tom

Whoopdie doo, it also snows every March in TN . Bass get bigger where it’s warmer 

[Dwight Hottle]

9 hours ago, WRB said:

Texas Share a Lunker program is well managed and raising high potential gene level FLMB strains by the tens of thousands each year.

I am not familiar with Florida trophy bass programs but guarantee live shiner caught bass are gut hooked far more often then artificial lures. Circle hooks help but the true giants are caught during the spawn cycle when they are less wary and unfortunately weaker as a result.

Tom

 

I am familiar with the Florida trophy bass programs as a fishing resident and a home owner for the last 12-13 years. Your guarantee of more bass gut hooked with shiners is not defensible based on my experience.   

[gim]

On 3/31/2022 at 12:48 PM, Dwight Hottle said:

The mortality rate of being caught, handled, photographed, put in a live well and mortality as a result is no greater for bass caught on live bait than bass caught on artificials.

It depends on the lure being used and the time of year. A lot of mortality studies have been done comparing the use of artificial lures compared to the use of live bait and they have shown with raw data that live bait increases mortality. It cannot be disputed. Warm water temps only compound the problem.

 

Its not specifically just targeting bass either. Every species of fish targeted has a higher mortality when live bait is used.

[Dwight Hottle]

28 minutes ago, gimruis said:

It depends on the lure being used and the time of year. A lot of mortality studies have been done comparing the use of artificial lures compared to the use of live bait and they have shown with raw data that live bait increases mortality. It cannot be disputed. Warm water temps only compound the problem.

 

Its not specifically just targeting bass either. Every species of fish targeted has a higher mortality when live bait is used.

 

Studies can be found supporting both points of view. Quick strike rigs were put into use by esox anglers to protect from gut hooking. Catch & release anglers and the professional guides almost always strive to protect the species they fish for & adapt their practices to promote lower mortality. Here is a study conducted by the Texas biologists from the Texas Parks & Wildlife Division that supports my opinion.  

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-02-23-9702230224-story.html

 

 

[MN Fisher]

25 minutes ago, gimruis said:

Its not specifically just targeting bass either. Every species of fish targeted has a higher mortality when live bait is used.

Experience panfishing:

 

With bobber and worm or chub minnow (live bait) - quite a few times I had to carefully use my needle-nose pliers to get the hook out cause it was deep.

 

Light jigs under a bobber - rarely deep hooked

Inline spinners - never deep hooked.

 

So based on my history - live bait results in more gut hooking than artificial lures.

 

I'm sure this can be translated to other species.

[Dwight Hottle]

There is a big difference in mouth sizes between panfish & largemouth bass. Also the distance between the mouth & the gullet. I would agree that gut hooking panfish with live bait is pretty common but panfish are not bass. And I always thought that people fish for panfish to harvest them not to catch & release. 

[WRB]

3 hours ago, Dwight Hottle said:

 

I am familiar with the Florida trophy bass programs as a fishing resident and a home owner for the last 12-13 years. Your guarantee of more bass gut hooked with shiners is not defensible based on my experience.   

Using today’s circle hooks helps a lot to mouth hook bass hand lower catch mortality rates.

Your assumption is all the guides are good sportsmen and not targeting bed fish for their clients, plus releasing a bass of a lifetime regardless of the clients desire to keep their catch.

Hope that is true in Florida, it’s not where I fish and the primary reason our small trophy bass lakes giant bass population has been over harvested. Northern Cal has produced mote LMB over 15 lbs during the 10 years then SoCal for the simple reason the lakes are much larger with fewer bass anglers and guides that fish everyday possible, less fishing pressure.

Florida is big bass fishing state with anglers visiting from all over the country like California was. The daily fishing pressure is extremely hard on the big bass populations for that reason.

If live bait fishing was outlawed Florida would have more potential to produce giant bass the with guides targeting them everyday with live shiners.

Texas raises trophy to restock their lakes annually, California stocks bass once initially after that the population is on it’s own. Can’t compare Texas to California, maybe Florida is raising trophy bass but I am not aware the program.

Tom

[gim]

6 hours ago, Dwight Hottle said:

Quick strike rigs were put into use by esox anglers to protect from gut hooking.

I agree, the rare instance I use a big sucker for muskies, I always use a quick strike rig.

 

Honestly I find live bait fishing to be boring and expensive. Live bait sucks buying all the time and trying to keep it fresh and healthy so it’s effective is a waste of my energy. Sitting there with a bobber can sometimes be a relaxing way to fish but I’d rather chuck artificial lures nowadays given a choice.

[thediscochef]

This is an interesting thread. In the year I've been targeting LMB solo, I've not once used live bait. I've also never gut-hooked a fish. It hasn't happened.

 

I dislike live bait for my own purposes for logistical reasons, as well as a general desire to avoid killing things unnecessarily too often. The main exception I make for this is venomous snakes. I'm not about to try and shame others from using minnows all the time, cause thats dumb. But I'm not going to use them much.

 

I'm not sure that others using live bait affects my jerkbait fishing. I think the only real way that would be possible is if bass begin to associate a given area with dangerous food that is indistinguishable from non-dangerous food and just stop feeding there altogether. That would probably take some insane pressure and consistency, I would think. I get more upset with the folks dropping green lights off the fishing pier as I suspect that has a greater impact. That said...I may be getting my own light here soon to compete with those dudes on the pier.

 

I have no experienced opinion on gut hooking or mortality with live bait vs lures.

[soflabasser]

On 4/2/2022 at 6:14 AM, N Florida Mike said:

When the fish have been hard to catch on artificials thats when I switch to live bait. I dont think bass would ever tire of eating shiners and small bream. But they do seem to shy away from artificials  that are used too much… Im confident it’s not because people use shiners a lot. If a bass had a choice he would eat the shiner over an artificial…a shiner is like a steak to a bass…

Your post reminds me of a lake I fished in Central Florida that I could only catch bass on lures and the bass completely ignored the expensive golden shiners I purchased. A man I met earlier on that lake told me that I would waste my time fishing with golden shiners since the bass in that lake get hit hard by people fishing with golden shiners. This man was correct since I spent hours fishing with golden shiners without a single bite. At that point I was amazed to see these bass ignore the golden shiners so I decided to use some lures I do well with in South Florida and quickly caught a limit in less than 30 minutes. I learned a valuable lesson that day that there are times lures will outfish live bait, such as a place that most people are fishing with live bait. You have to think outside the box if you want to consistently catch bass in different bodies of water. 

[N Florida Mike]

53 minutes ago, soflabasser said:

Your post reminds me of a lake I fished in Central Florida that I could only catch bass on lures and the bass completely ignored the expensive golden shiners I purchased. A man I met earlier on that lake told me that I would waste my time fishing with golden shiners since the bass in that lake get hit hard by people fishing with golden shiners. This man was correct since I spent hours fishing with golden shiners without a single bite. At that point I was amazed to see these bass ignore the golden shiners so I decided to use some lures I do well with in South Florida and quickly caught a limit in less than 30 minutes. I learned a valuable lesson that day that there are times lures will outfish live bait, such as a place that most people are fishing with live bait. You have to think outside the box if you want to consistently catch bass in different bodies of water. 

But…, were the shiners commercially / hatchery raised or wild ?  They know the difference. The wild shiners have that true golden color and maybe they taste better or give off a distinct odor that bass can’t resist… All I know is, Bass will usually eventually eat them if they are in the water, and bass are nearby.

Most of the captivity raised ones have more of a silver color. Bass would rather eat a bream than one of them…A lot of bait stores sell them , and people buy them , not knowing any better…

[gim]

Golden shiners are very hard to come by here in Minnesota. When you do find a bait shop that has them, they are extremely expensive. Like 15 bucks for a dozen, and they count them out.

 

The mortality on those things is absurd too. They are so fragile. They die if you look at them wrong.

 

That being said, people love them for ice fishing, especially for walleyes. That “shimmer” they have is irresistible for walleyes.

 

The state of MN banned importation of golden shiners here years ago because they were known to carry septicemia. Most of our supply here used to come from Arkansas. The amount that are trapped here in the state is minimal, which has skyrocketed the price at the bait shop for them.

[Dwight Hottle]

10 hours ago, gimruis said:

Golden shiners are very hard to come by here in Minnesota. When you do find a bait shop that has them, they are extremely expensive. Like 15 bucks for a dozen, and they count them out.

 

The mortality on those things is absurd too. They are so fragile. They die if you look at them wrong.

 

That being said, people love them for ice fishing, especially for walleyes. That “shimmer” they have is irresistible for walleyes.

 

The state of MN banned importation of golden shiners here years ago because they were known to carry septicemia. Most of our supply here used to come from Arkansas. The amount that are trapped here in the state is minimal, which has skyrocketed the price at the bait shop for them.

 

$15 per dozen is cheap for wild shiners in FL. 

[Captain Phil]

6 hours ago, Dwight Hottle said:

 

$15 per dozen is cheap for wild shiners in FL. 

 

I'll say!  Around here they are $20 or more a dozen if you can get them. Don't feel bad, my son who lives in South Florida fishes offshore tournaments.  He buys "goggle eyes" for bait and pays $100 a dozen for them. 

 

 

[the reel ess]

11 hours ago, gimruis said:

Golden shiners are very hard to come by here in Minnesota. When you do find a bait shop that has them, they are extremely expensive. Like 15 bucks for a dozen, and they count them out.

 

The mortality on those things is absurd too. They are so fragile. They die if you look at them wrong.

 

That being said, people love them for ice fishing, especially for walleyes. That “shimmer” they have is irresistible for walleyes.

 

The state of MN banned importation of golden shiners here years ago because they were known to carry septicemia. Most of our supply here used to come from Arkansas. The amount that are trapped here in the state is minimal, which has skyrocketed the price at the bait shop for them.

There's nowhere near me you can even buy them. Shad and blueback herring are the main forage in our big lakes. They exist in my local reservoir that I usually fish. I caught one Saturday. But I haven't learned how to bait them for the net. I tried spreading some oatmeal around the dock and came back later with the net. Nothing.

[gim]

50 minutes ago, Dwight Hottle said:

 

$15 per dozen is cheap for wild shiners in FL. 

Are the wild caught versions hardier than the bait shop ones?  When I would buy shiners years ago, half of them were dead by the time I got to the lake.

[Dwight Hottle]

58 minutes ago, gimruis said:

Are the wild caught versions hardier than the bait shop ones?  When I would buy shiners years ago, half of them were dead by the time I got to the lake.

 

I think the wild caught ones are more durable. 

[Captain Phil]

6 hours ago, gimruis said:

Are the wild caught versions hardier than the bait shop ones?  When I would buy shiners years ago, half of them were dead by the time I got to the lake.

 

In most Florida bait shops you will find two types of shiners.  The small silver ones are farm raised.  They aren't worth the trouble and will quickly die on a hook.  What you want are large native golden shiners which are much hardier.  In years past, I have done my share of shiner fishing.  My personal opinion is live bait fishing kills too many bass.  Bass caught on shiners are often deeply hooked, so I never used live bait unless the customer demanded it. 

 

The majority of my customers were tournament fishermen looking for local knowledge. Back in the day, guides supplemented their income by fishing money tournaments where there were no rules prohibiting professionals.  The toughest bass tournament format I ever fished was limited to anglers over 50.  Some of the people in those tournaments could have won a Bassmaster tournament with one hand tied behind their back.  One actually turned down an invite to the first Classic from Ray Scott himself.  You can read about it in the book Bass Boss. 

[soflabasser]

On 4/5/2022 at 8:37 PM, N Florida Mike said:

But…, were the shiners commercially / hatchery raised or wild ?  They know the difference. The wild shiners have that true golden color and maybe they taste better or give off a distinct odor that bass can’t resist… All I know is, Bass will usually eventually eat them if they are in the water, and bass are nearby.

Most of the captivity raised ones have more of a silver color. Bass would rather eat a bream than one of them…A lot of bait stores sell them , and people buy them , not knowing any better…

The shiners that I purchased were wild golden shiners. The bass in this lake did not care for them and only seem to care for lures fished in a specific way. These bass are used to seeing thousands of fishermen every year so they are not as easy to catch as a bass from a private pond, you have to work to get these fish to bite with lures. Fortunately I caught my limit which made the trip better. 

[N Florida Mike]

I fished one small lake  many times that was stocked by the state, and the bass wouldn’t hardly bite a shiner OR an artificial. Never figured it out…

There was a HUGE forage base in that lake though. Maybe that was the case where you were fishing. Just lots of bait already there so they weren’t impressed by just another shiner.

 

[DINK WHISPERER]

On 4/1/2022 at 11:24 PM, WRB said:

Texas Share a Lunker program is well managed and raising high potential gene level FLMB strains by the tens of thousands each year.

I am not familiar with Florida trophy bass programs but guarantee live shiner caught bass are gut hooked far more often then artificial lures. Circle hooks help but the true giants are caught during the spawn cycle when they are less wary and unfortunately weaker as a result.

Tom

I find it to be the complete opposite actually. I've gut hooked far more bass on a senko or a T-rig than anything else. 

When fishing live shiners or bluegill I always tail hook them and use a balloon. That way if the bass does swallow it quicker than I can react on the hook set it's still likely they don't get gut hooked. 

 

On 4/1/2022 at 11:24 PM, WRB said:

 

 

[N Florida Mike]

1 hour ago, DINK WHISPERER said:

I've gut hooked far more bass on a senko or a T-rig than anything else. 

Same here. Especially if Im using a wide-gap hook. I don’t get many gut hooked fish with a straight shank hook though.

For shiner fishing , I use a smaller hook than most people because I don’t want the action of the bait to be diminished by a large hook. I can’t find big shiners like I used to, so small hooks are best for smaller baits, like little bream.

If I gut hook a big fish and it’s too risky, I just cut the line and let the fish go. The hook will rust and disintegrate before long.

[DINK WHISPERER]

2 minutes ago, N Florida Mike said:

Same here. Especially if Im using a wide-gap hook. I don’t get many gut hooked fish with a straight shank hook though.

For shiner fishing , I use a smaller hook than most people because I don’t want the action of the bait to be diminished by a large hook. I can’t find big shiners like I used to, so small hooks are best for smaller baits, like little bream.

If I gut hook a big fish and it’s too risky, I just cut the line and let the fish go. The hook will rust and disintegrate before long.

It's the complete opposite here on my waters ?. I can't seem to catch a shiner under 8". Even a 1 lb Bass will eat one of those though so it's all good. After much trial and error I have settled on the mustad wide Gap weedless hooks. Shiners love to run into cover to try and hide and this hook prevents them from getting all snagged up. My hook up ratio with them has been flawless in two years of using them as well. 

[NoShoes]

I agree more fish at gut hooked on live bait all day. 
 

i also feel gut hook ups are very dependent on the bass temperament that day. I rarely but hook on my Texas rig, but one weekend I gut hooked a half dozen. Everyone was set on the hit, they just seemed to swallow the bait that day. Never happened again that.