The Live Bait problem

[Ravox]

Here in Florida the lake of the moment is headwaters is where everybody is going to catch big bass, at the same lake there is a live bait (shiners) fever, all the guides and occasional fishermen are using live shiners.

 

Have some friends who like me prefer artificially baits that left the lake disappointed, not even senkos worked for them.

 

It looks like the excess of live bait use are making the bass very selective regarding artificial lures.. for those who don’t like to use live baits what to do in situations like that? In a lake that bass sees a lot of shiners is that possible they reject any kind of artificial lure?

[throttleplate]

you need to talk with Roland Martin

[Ravox]

4 minutes ago, throttleplate said:

you need to talk with Roland Martin

He is all about live shiners now

[CrashVector]

2 minutes ago, Ravox said:

He is all about live shiners now

At headwaters too.

 

In a vid he said they have to use circle hooks there now when using live bait?

[WRB]

The reason Florida will never produce a world record bass is the guides kill the potential giants before they can grow to 18 lbs.

Tom

[CrashVector]

40 minutes ago, WRB said:

The reason Florida will never produce a world record bass is the guides kill the potential giants before they can grow to 18 lbs.

Tom

 

You mean by keeping catches?

[schplurg]

Interesting premise: the use of live baits making it harder to catch with artificials in an entire body of water.

 

Maybe I just like to argue sometimes but I wonder about that. If you fished a pond nobody had ever fished before would you not catch fish with artificials? Every fish up until that day would have been eating live bait exclusively.

 

We all want to fish unpressured waters. Isn't that the same thing as fishing a lake where everyone else is using live bait (in other words nobody is fishing it as far as the fish are concerned since they are seeing no fake baits)? Sort of?

 

Show 'em something different, right?

 

How many fish in a lake that size have ever seen an artificial bait? A small percentage? Large? And how many remember it the next day, especially if they didn't bite it?

 

Finally, if fish keep getting caught with shiners I would think they'd stop after awhile and eat something else if they were that smart.

 

I don't think it makes sense. It seems to go against some of what we think about bass fishing. I'm willing to hear any explanations though.

[Captain Phil]

6 hours ago, WRB said:

The reason Florida will never produce a world record bass is the guides kill the potential giants before they can grow to 18 lbs.

Tom

 

This may have been true 40 years ago.  I can remember when the big thing was to have a gold stringer of mounted 10 pound plus bass hanging on your wall.  Hardly any anglers I know keep bass today.  Recently, new Florida rules only allow an angler to keep one bass over 16 inches in length.   The problem I have with rules is the State is too easy on giving out tournament exemptions.  Hauling a live well full of bass around all day kills too many fish, especially in the heat of summer.  Tournaments should drop the limit to three fish per day per angler. This includes pros and locals.  This would put the emphasis on big fish, not a bag full of two pounders.  Lures and techniques would change, all benefiting the sport. 

 

The real issue with Florida producing a world record bass is our bass are in their natural environment, not being force fed trout.  States like California are artificially producing larger bass from Florida stock.  This is not a  bad thing, but comparing the two is not an even match.  The other issue is due to fishing pressure alone.  10,000 people a day are moving here, many come here to retire and fish. The largest bass I have ever seen weighed in a Harris Chain tournament was a little over 13 pounds.  The fish in the photo below has caught two blocks from my home.   In the last ten years, a couple of 17 pound fish have been caught within an hour of my home in Eustis.  I doubt there will ever be another world record bass caught anywhere that grew up in a purely natural environment. 

 

 

[GRiver]

6 hours ago, Ravox said:

who like me prefer artificially baits

I’m prefer artificial baits too, not that I have anything against live bait. I tell everyone I’m “too lazy” to fish with live bait. I don’t want to have go get bait just before I go fish, ether catch it, buy it, or keep it alive while fishing.  
The alternative I use while fishing is a boot tail, pre rigged minnow. One of them I use is made by Storm “ wild eyed”

I’ve used Bass Pro’s version of it too and Berkeley. I keep one of theses rigged and on deck all the time.

 The people that net shiners around here will put a PVC pipe down for a marker, broadcast hog finisher feed around it come back in about 10 minutes or so and cast net shiners and go sell them to the bait house. 
when I’m fishing the shore line and come across one of the markers, I picked up my boot tail rig and fish 15ft-20ft both sides of the marker. Caught a lot fish all different kinds, Crappie, Bream, Bass and , even Cats. 

[Captain Phil]

I can tell you from personal experience that commercial fishing for shiners is tough work and definitely not for wimps.  Try throwing a cast net all day and see what happens to your body.  The idea that bass become harder to catch around shiner fisherman is a myth perpetrated by fisherman who see bass being caught on shiners when they can't catch fish on whatever it is they are throwing.  In Florida, shiners are our bass preferred food.  Guides prefer shiner fishing because it works and it takes no skill on the anglers part.  Another reason that is not talked about is guides make money selling shiners to customers.

 

Shiner fishermen do not gun around the lake on 24 volt high.  They don't fire off cast after cast hoping for a bite.   A live shiner soaking under a float signals it's presence with distress vibrations that a bass can zero in on.  I love pecan pie.  If you sat a slice in front of me for an hour, I doubt I could resist taking a bite.   If you were to fish an artificial bait in the same way you fish a shiner, you would catch bass the same way.  

[Koz]

6 minutes ago, Captain Phil said:

 Guides prefer shiner fishing because it works and it takes no skill on the anglers part.  Another reason that is not talked about is guides make money selling shiners to customers.

 

Bingo!

[Finessegenics]

15 minutes ago, Captain Phil said:

If you were to fish an artificial bait in the same way you fish a shiner, you would catch bass the same way

I like that 

[Dwight Hottle]

First of all Headwaters is catch & release only. So no one is killing bass except for catch mortality. 
I had a buddy send me a short video of him & two others bass fishing with lipless cranks & chatterbaits. All three caught new PB that day last week. Paul fishing in front of his boat caught a DD just over 10lb. So long story short you can still catch them using only artificals. They caught about 60 bass between them that day. 

[WRB]

The problem using Golden Shiners (roach) isn’t the fact it’s easier for guides to use to catch big bass, it’s the mortality rate of being caught, handled, photographed, put in a live well and mortality as a result. 

Yes, C&R helps but doesn’t solve the mortality rate.

We have a similar problem with our trophy lakes catching big spawning females that are fragile to mishandling and have a high mortality rate as a result.

Lets say for the sake of argument 100% of the teener bass are released.  About 3% of the big bed bass die as a result of spawning. Add another 5% for post mortality from being caught. 8% of a very small population die every year. 13 lb+ LMB are extremely rare fish and that population gets smaller every year from fishing pressure.

Not everyone releases their PB and want a mount giving guides what they are in business for Tips.

Tom

[Dwight Hottle]

53 minutes ago, WRB said:

The problem using Golden Shiners (roach) isn’t the fact it’s easier for guides to use to catch big bass, it’s the mortality rate of being caught, handled, photographed, put in a live well and mortality as a result. 

Yes, C&R helps but doesn’t solve the mortality rate.

We have a similar problem with our trophy lakes catching big spawning females that are fragile to mishandling and have a high mortality rate as a result.

Lets say for the sake of argument 100% of the teener bass are released.  About 3% of the big bed bass die as a result of spawning. Add another 5% for post mortality from being caught. 8% of a very small population die every year. 13 lb+ LMB are extremely rare fish and that population gets smaller every year from fishing pressure.

Not everyone releases their PB and want a mount giving guides what they are in business for Tips.

Tom

 

I respect you as a bass fishing expert but totally disagree with your thinking. The mortality rate of being caught, handled, photographed, put in a live well and mortality as a result is no greater for bass caught on live bait than bass caught on artificials. And yes catch & release does help. Catch & release rules on Stickmarsh/Farm 13 next to Headwaters prohibits using live wells to store bass. Since both bodies of water fall under the SJWMA (St. Johns Water Management Area) once the pending catch & release regulations are put into effect officially later this year the rules should be the same for both. 

 

And your comments about teener bass being 100% released but still suffering increased mortality may be true but how is the state of Texas so successfully carrying out the Toyota Sharelunker: Legacy Class catches. Those fish are being handled even more based on the way the program functions. But yet it is probably the most successful program to ever have been put in place promoting big bass capture.

 

 

[Ravox]

I imagine that the possibility of a bass get gut hooked is higher with live baits

 

[BrianMDTX]

23 minutes ago, Ravox said:

I imagine that the possibility of a bass get gut hooked is higher with live baits

 

Maybe. Then again, it’s a heck of a lot higher with soft plastics than with, say, a crankbait or spinnerbait. And since shiners are rather large compared to a Senko or Rage Craw, I’d bet soft plastics are probably a higher probability than live bait. Substantially higher. 

[soflabasser]

I have caught big bass both on live bait and lures, both techniques have times they do best. One is not ''easier'' style of fishing than the other, anyone who is good at both live bait fishing and lure fishing knows this. I have caught big bass on lures in highly pressured waters were many complain that the big bass do not want to bite for whatever excuse they have. Someone always finds a way to catch fish so the best you can do is put in your time on the water. What that said I am in favor of reducing the amount of bass tournament anglers are allowed to bring to the weigh in. It is a well known fact that many bass caught in tournaments die from all the stress being in a live well and weigh in process. What would be even better is if the bass are weighed on the boat with an approved scale and these bass immediately released after the boat weigh in.

[Dirtyeggroll]

Regarding live bait changing fishing pressure, don’t bass eat live bait to survive? 

[the reel ess]

On 3/31/2022 at 6:56 AM, Captain Phil said:

Guides prefer shiner fishing because it works and it takes no skill on the anglers part.  Another reason that is not talked about is guides make money selling shiners to customers.

It seems to be the easiest route to a 10+ bass. I'd like to do it in my lake too. We have shiners and a population of big bass. I've caught a couple shiners in excess of 6" here and there. But I've never been able to catch any with the net. And I don't have the tank to keep any. I've considered trying small bluegill. But then I have to fish for them instead of bass. 

 

1 hour ago, Dirtyeggroll said:

Regarding live bait changing fishing pressure, don’t bass eat live bait to survive? 

That's a fine point. Bass don't eat spinnerbaits and jigs. So they're eating wild shiners round the clock.

18 hours ago, Ravox said:

I imagine that the possibility of a bass get gut hooked is higher with live baits

 

That's why Roland uses the circle hook.

[DINK WHISPERER]

I visit headwaters frequently and never have any issues catching big fish. My biggest there came on the savage gear line through shad in golden shiner though ?

Big EZs, chatterbaits and hollow body frogs have also produced well for me. 

On 3/31/2022 at 6:29 AM, Captain Phil said:

 

This may have been true 40 years ago.  I can remember when the big thing was to have a gold stringer of mounted 10 pound plus bass hanging on your wall.  Hardly any anglers I know keep bass today.  Recently, new Florida rules only allow an angler to keep one bass over 16 inches in length.   The problem I have with rules is the State is too easy on giving out tournament exemptions.  Hauling a live well full of bass around all day kills too many fish, especially in the heat of summer.  Tournaments should drop the limit to three fish per day per angler. This includes pros and locals.  This would put the emphasis on big fish, not a bag full of two pounders.  Lures and techniques would change, all benefiting the sport. 

 

The real issue with Florida producing a world record bass is our bass are in their natural environment, not being force fed trout.  States like California are artificially producing larger bass from Florida stock.  This is not a  bad thing, but comparing the two is not an even match.  The other issue is due to fishing pressure alone.  10,000 people a day are moving here, many come here to retire and fish. The largest bass I have ever seen weighed in a Harris Chain tournament was a little over 13 pounds.  The fish in the photo below has caught two blocks from my home.   In the last ten years, a couple of 17 pound fish have been caught within an hour of my home in Eustis.  I doubt there will ever be another world record bass caught anywhere that grew up in a purely natural environment. 

 

 

You hit the nail on the head here! We let our bass grow themselves. I'm sure if we flooded trout and huge golden shiner in every major body of water here we would have 20lb + fish too. SMH.....

[WRB]

On 3/31/2022 at 10:48 AM, Dwight Hottle said:

 

I respect you as a bass fishing expert but totally disagree with your thinking. The mortality rate of being caught, handled, photographed, put in a live well and mortality as a result is no greater for bass caught on live bait than bass caught on artificials. And yes catch & release does help. Catch & release rules on Stickmarsh/Farm 13 next to Headwaters prohibits using live wells to store bass. Since both bodies of water fall under the SJWMA (St. Johns Water Management Area) once the pending catch & release regulations are put into effect officially later this year the rules should be the same for both. 

 

And your comments about teener bass being 100% released but still suffering increased mortality may be true but how is the state of Texas so successfully carrying out the Toyota Sharelunker: Legacy Class catches. Those fish are being handled even more based on the way the program functions. But yet it is probably the most successful program to ever have been put in place promoting big bass capture.

 

 

Texas Share a Lunker program is well managed and raising high potential gene level FLMB strains by the tens of thousands each year.

I am not familiar with Florida trophy bass programs but guarantee live shiner caught bass are gut hooked far more often then artificial lures. Circle hooks help but the true giants are caught during the spawn cycle when they are less wary and unfortunately weaker as a result.

Tom

[TnRiver46]

People worry, and the bass thrive. Happens everywhere 

[WRB]

1 hour ago, TnRiver46 said:

People worry, and the bass thrive. Happens everywhere 

Thrive yes, Not DD or bass over 18 lbs.

TN LMB record 15.3 lbs, my minimum is 15 lbs for giant bass.

Tom

[Mbirdsley]

Yeah I’m not buying the because, they are using live bait it’s harder to fish for bass.  Bass eat live bait around the clock. 
 

Any of the new age guides are going to make sure the bass survive.  Maybe the old school guides let clients keep them but, most guides are very in tune with the body of water they are fishing.
 

 

Up here guides start getting Antsy if clients keep steel head on the rivers. It is in the guides best interest to make sure the fish survives so that another client can catch it. 
 

take a guy that knows what he’s doing with live bait and a yokel with artificial.  The yokel is going to gut hook more fish with artificial than the live bait guy. I’ve seen it done plenty