Central Florida Shiner Chaos

[Zcoker]

It’s a war zone down here in South Florida. Shiner anglers against the artificial guys, one way or the other, folks are up in arms. Headwaters Lake is the focus. A little backstory about the lake: Headwaters Lake is in Fellsmere Florida. In August 2020, after many years, it finally opened for motor boat use.  It’s a manmade 10k acre impoundment located in Fellsmere Florida adjacent to the famed Stick Marsh. It’s managed by the St John’s River Water Management District and by the FWC. It’s catch and release only for largemouth bass and circle hooks only if using live bait for largemouth bass. Headwaters Lake is unique, not just any old impoundment. By design, it was to be a premiere trophy bass fishery. Biologist created and sculpted a terrine of islands, rock pits, staggered ledges. The heavy machinery work that went into excavating that place is utterly amazing. Some of the machine operators even carved big letters and words into the earth. Then the area was flooded and stocked with over 1 million largemouth bass. In short, it blossomed into one of the premier bass fishing destinations in the entire world. That’s right, fishing is THAT GOOD, with one of the highest percentages of a double digit fish daily….most all of which are caught on wild shiners.

 

This is where things get rather touchy. Because of the outstanding bass fishing, the charter captains took up the reigns in a real hurry, and rightly so. It’s not uncommon for a chartered boat to get 50 or more bass daily, with a lot of them 5 pounds all the way upwards to 10lbs or even more. Customers have a guarantee of many fish and a very high percentage of getting a trophy fish, or the biggest fish of their lifetime. The charter business is literally on fire, with big names and the likes taking advantage of the situation. People are booking trips like crazy. The word is out, trips are booked months in advance. A modern day gold rush! The scene at the small, dusty boat ramp is comical with threats, fights ... yet on social media pure rage and jealously … for all those who fish with shiners!

 

Many fear the lake is doomed, plain and simple, by the very act of netting and fishing with wild shiners. With white PVC pipe marker poles sticking out all over the entire lake, side by side, the netters have staked their claim. Doug Hannon predicted and warned against this in an article he wrote years ago. He warned about the depletion of the shiner population in the same area. He stated that the process of netting wild shiners kills hundreds of smaller fish just to get a few “good ones” for a charter trip.

 

Then there is the legality of netting shiners in Headwaters Lake. Some see it as commercial while others see it as their right or their privilege. The FWC says no netting if selling the wild shiners commercially. Some charter captains just say, “I’m not selling them, I’m giving them away to my clients for free.” A loophole? Maybe.  Regardless, the only thing I can say is folks are very ticked off. Rage. Anger. Hostility. The fights over this on social media are downright brutal.

 

These arguments go a few ways.

 

First, is the idea that real fishing implies outsmarting a fish with a fake bait -- only in this regard is fishing considered real. On the flipside of that, the shiner guys say fishing is fishing, whether with live bait or dead bait or fake bait, doesn’t make a darn bit of difference, “and no one can tell me how to fish or what to fish with!” Another group sees shiner fishing as a means to destroy the fishing by fake baits, meaning that the bass are becoming “conditioned” to eat easily wild shiners thus avoiding their fake baits and diminishing the angler’s chances of ever catching a trophy. Another group views shiner netting as slowly depleting the natural food source of the bass fishery, thus wiping out the trophy fishery altogether…..and so the stories go.

 

I, myself, cannot make much sense of it. The hostility is so darn intense and so very hard to see into any argument or disagreement to make any clear meaning.  Thus my reason to put this piece out there.

 

So, what are some of your thoughts on the matter? Have any of you ever experienced anything similar to this in your area? If so, what are some of the outcomes or solutions?

[Finessegenics]

21 minutes ago, Zcoker said:

Another group sees shiner fishing as a means to destroy the fishing by fake baits, meaning that the bass are becoming “conditioned”

 

That makes no sense, of course the bass are attracted to the shiners it's literally what they eat to survive. If anything they are becoming conditioned to not eat shiners if they end up with an extraterrestrial abduction experience every time they go after one ?

 

23 minutes ago, Zcoker said:

Another group views shiner netting as slowly depleting the natural food source of the bass fishery, thus wiping out the trophy fishery altogether

 

Probably what's happening...any old species can  get caught up in the nets. I don't see how it can't be even a bit negative. Why hasn't anyone started a shiner farm? Sounds like it could be a lucrative business.

 

Thankfully, nothing like this in my area and there probably never will be. It's hard to have my own opinion when I don't live down there. Thanks for the write up! Interested to see what others have to say. 

[Deleted account]

I read a brilliant comment yesterday, "Fishing is misunderstood by bass anglers" somewhere on the InterWeb...  

[crypt]

I have fished Headwaters before they put the boat ramp in, kayak only. and I agree that the shiner guys are overfishing with using nothing but shiners. I myself don't use them.but that is my choice. they are making a living, a  very good one right now.but the stick marsh went through the same thing years ago. was there when it opened also. guides from all over came down and used the tar out of shiners to guarantee "the fish of a lifetime" .like all good things someone will use it as long as it works for them.I have not had any bad experiences at the ramp or out on the water. I have been there at least 35-40 time since the new ramp opened. But I have heard of some arguments, buddy got into it with a guide once over who's area it was. it's not going to keep me from going there.but like Zcoker said it is one of the best lakes to fish right now,artificials or live bait, it is an awesome place. 

[Basser2021]

I just don't understand why people are getting into that bad of arguments over fishing

I will fish my way and someone else fish their way it's none of my business

 

But yeah the game and fish agency should definetley put out more strict regulations on how many shiners can be caught and used by these guides.

[rboat]

We all know fishing pressure of any kind can ruin a fishery quickly. They should probably limit the boats that go out each day, for safety and to protect the fishery. Kind of like permits for certain hunting areas.

[TnRiver46]

Let me know when the shiner population is suffering…….. I’ll wait here 

[soflabasser]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:24 PM, Zcoker said:

Many fear the lake is doomed, plain and simple, by the very act of netting and fishing with wild shiners. With white PVC pipe marker poles sticking out all over the entire lake, side by side, the netters have staked their claim. Doug Hannon predicted and warned against this in an article he wrote years ago. He warned about the depletion of the shiner population in the same area. He stated that the process of netting wild shiners kills hundreds of smaller fish just to get a few “good ones” for a charter trip.

 

Then there is the legality of netting shiners in Headwaters Lake. Some see it as commercial while others see it as their right or their privilege. The FWC says no netting if selling the wild shiners commercially. Some charter captains just say, “I’m not selling them, I’m giving them away to my clients for free.” A loophole? Maybe.

 

 

Sounds like they are catching bait like commercial fishermen and not like recreational fishermen. Reminds me of people that use electric reels in the ocean that brag about catching fish this way when in reality this type of fishing is more commercial fishing than sportfishing. I understand using cast nets in the ocean for mullet but I do not like the practice of using cast nets in freshwater. Too much bycatch caught in nets which includes bass. It would be nice if they passed a law that you can only catch shiners and other legal baitfish on hook and line and not with nets.

On 2/21/2022 at 3:24 PM, Zcoker said:

First, is the idea that real fishing implies outsmarting a fish with a fake bait -- only in this regard is fishing considered real. On the flipside of that, the shiner guys say fishing is fishing, whether with live bait or dead bait or fake bait, doesn’t make a darn bit of difference, “and no one can tell me how to fish or what to fish with!” Another group sees shiner fishing as a means to destroy the fishing by fake baits, meaning that the bass are becoming “conditioned” to eat easily wild shiners thus avoiding their fake baits and diminishing the angler’s chances of ever catching a trophy. Another group views shiner netting as slowly depleting the natural food source of the bass fishery, thus wiping out the trophy fishery altogether…..and so the stories go.

 

 

I much rather catch a big bass on a lure than on live bait but I understand there are times live bait works best just like there are times a lure will be the best choice. As long as the fisherman catches his own bait on hook and line I see no problem, its when people get greedy with cast nets that a problem can arise. Cast nets are known for catching lots of bycatch which includes bass, not the best thing you would want in a lake that is being managed as a trophy bass fishing lake.

[Zcoker]

2 hours ago, soflabasser said:

Sounds like they are catching bait like commercial fishermen and not like recreational fishermen. Reminds me of people that use electric reels in the ocean that brag about catching fish this way when in reality this type of fishing is more commercial fishing than sportfishing. I understand using cast nets in the ocean for mullet but I do not like the practice of using cast nets in freshwater. Too much bycatch caught in nets which includes bass. It would be nice if they passed a law that you can only catch shiners and other legal baitfish on hook and line and not with nets.

I much rather catch a big bass on a lure than on live bait but I understand there are times live bait works best just like there are times a lure will be the best choice. As long as the fisherman catches his own bait on hook and line I see no problem, its when people get greedy with cast nets that a problem can arise. Cast nets are known for catching lots of bycatch which includes bass, not the best thing you would want in a lake that is being managed as a trophy bass fishing lake.

 

There’s definitely a fine line between the concept of commercial and sportfishing on that lake. As I pointed out with the netting of wild shiners, and as I understand it, not allowed to sell them if netting them in Headwaters Lake. Some charters just state that they are giving them to their clients for free. In my mind, I see that as “selling” because the client purchases the charter. Some guys refute that by saying that’s not selling anything and, if so, then it’s considered selling the gas for the trip, too. So I guess the argument can go on forever, selling or not, who the heck knows? It must be “not” because the FWC isn’t doing anything about it…or at least not that I’m aware of. 

[Dwight Hottle]

The story I heard is the FWC caught a guide with several hundred shiners coming back to the dock & they determined his take was illegal & made him release all of them. 

[Ski]

I "think" this is incorrect as of right now "It’s catch and release only for largemouth bass" The FWC website still shows... State regulation applies 5 LM, only 1 may exced 16 inch. If I am incorrect, and I may be please post new Reg.

 

[Zcoker]

2 hours ago, Ski said:

I "think" this is incorrect as of right now "It’s catch and release only for largemouth bass" The FWC website still shows... State regulation applies 5 LM, only 1 may exced 16 inch. If I am incorrect, and I may be please post new Reg.

 

 

I believe most know that it's a catch and release fishery for largemouth bass. Below is the FWC regulation about bait. The part about "selling" and "not selling" wild shiners is much of the augment, especially as it pertains to charter fishing on that lake. The charter captains are saying that they do not sell their bait, or at least some of them are claiming that. They instead state that they are "giving the bait away free" to their customers, which may not require a commercial fishing license. Then there's the question if commercial fishing is even allowed on Headwaters Lake. If not, then that would tank everything and make no difference to even have a commercial fishing license.

 

 

 

Freshwater shrimp and golden shiners of any size, or other freshwater nongame fish, including catfish, less than 8-inches total length may be taken for bait, unless specifically prohibited, by the following methods:

 

• Cast nets having a stretched mesh size not greater than 1 inch in fresh waters of the state unless specifically prohibited.
• Minnow dip nets not more than 4 feet in diameter.
  Minnow seines having a stretched mesh size not greater than 1 inch, a length not more than 20 feet, and a depth not more than 4 feet.
• Minnow traps not more than 24 inches in length and 12 inches in diameter, with a funnel entrance not more than 1 inch in spread.
• Any game fish taken by these methods must be released immediately.

• Taking of bait for the purpose of sale requires a commercial fishing license.

There may be other sub-regulations that I am not aware of, maybe specific to that lake only, regulations like no commercial fishing and so forth. I don't know. Others may have to chime in on that one. Sometimes the FWC is not totally prepared (regulation-wise) for areas that they manage. For example, they had to re-write the entire regulatory format for shore based shark fishing. 

[soflabasser]

22 hours ago, Zcoker said:

 

There’s definitely a fine line between the concept of commercial and sportfishing on that lake. As I pointed out with the netting of wild shiners, and as I understand it, not allowed to sell them if netting them in Headwaters Lake. Some charters just state that they are giving them to their clients for free. In my mind, I see that as “selling” because the client purchases the charter. Some guys refute that by saying that’s not selling anything and, if so, then it’s considered selling the gas for the trip, too. So I guess the argument can go on forever, selling or not, who the heck knows? It must be “not” because the FWC isn’t doing anything about it…or at least not that I’m aware of. 

I am not buying the excuse that these guides are ''giving away'' golden shiners to their clients, they are including the golden shiners as part of the guided fishing trip which means they are indeed selling golden shiners to paying customers. To give away something means you give something and not expect anything in return, clearly these guides are making money off these golden shiners. Maybe it would be best to make this lake a lure fishing only, catch and release fishing lake. That way people won't be tempted to take so many golden shiners like they seem to be doing.

[Zcoker]

16 hours ago, soflabasser said:

I am not buying the excuse that these guides are ''giving away'' golden shiners to their clients, they are including the golden shiners as part of the guided fishing trip which means they are indeed selling golden shiners to paying customers. To give away something means you give something and not expect anything in return, clearly these guides are making money off these golden shiners. Maybe it would be best to make this lake a lure fishing only, catch and release fishing lake. That way people won't be tempted to take so many golden shiners like they seem to be doing.

 

That's my opinion as well. I mean, if I charter a boat for good money to take me out fishing, I would EXPECT them to supply the bait, the fuel, the rods and reels...all the necessary stuff to take me out and catch fish. The reason I would expect this is simple: I am paying for it.  Believe it or not, many don't feel this way, and I can't understand why. Regardless, the loophole of "giving away the shiners" seems to be working, as I have not heard anything to challenge it.