“Soft Tip” Rods

[Mat_ski]

8 hours ago, RDB said:

I should say they had the identical LISTED power and action which is provided by the manufacturer.  Action is basically where the rod bends when pressure is applied.  That doesn’t mean the degree of bend will be uniform for every rod. 
 

In the picture I have 2 H/F rods (1 Loomis NRX+ & 1 Steez Bottom Contact).  You can see the NRX+ hangs below the Steez when I balance above the deflection point.  If I move my finger up to the deflection point, they would hang almost identical.  The NRX has a softer tip (i.e. more tip) than the Steez.  Yet they are both H/F jig rods.

 

 

 

I don’t think the handles on your nrx and steez weight the same. 
Hang some lead from the tip on few feet of line and that will give you more accurate loading characteristics. 

[ChrisD46]

*The more expensive rods can have what seem to be more hybrid / multiple actions built into the rod (i.e. MH / F with a soft tip . With less expensive rods , a softer tip only comes with a moderate action . A less expensive rod with say a MH / F or MH / XF rod is likely not to have a "soft tip" . **Often cheaper to change your line and rotate between:  Braid - FC - Mono (i.e. no stretch to most stretch) to work around a rod's behavior / action . Let's hear comments by others who use the same line choices to dial in a rod you already own ! 

[bulldog1935]

ok, I have a soft tip rod for you. 

All along, the goal for my braid-raced 4600C3 was a light frogger from kaykak in small water like this. 

First application I had on hand was this Falcon glass rod,  Just under 6', though with long handle, the blade length is 4-3/4'.   Rated 1/4 to 1/2 oz, I would call the Falcon rod a fast para - it does not have a soft tip, rather the flex is in the mid. 

Smith with their Super Striker made no bones about copying Champion handle that matched with Fenwick bass rod blades 50 years ago.  Nice, though, they made it magnesium.  It places the spool of your big round reel in the same thumb spot as a low-profile reel on straight handle. 

I hemmed and hawed over the available Smith blades, and finally decided on the Top Water Light, nice wide range 5 to 14 g (1/2 oz), and said to be optimized for 12-14 g.  (hard to read, this was a tough photo to get).  The blade length is 4-3/4'

Comparing rod curves on Smith website, https://www.smith.jp/superstrike/curve.html

The FO-56 is the exact mid and butt taper of their WS-51MM deep crankbait blade (rated 7 - 24 g), but with an added 5" of softer tip. 

Casting notes on this soft-tip rod with 1/2 oz (my target). 

The Smith feels less tippy than the Falcon Glass with a half-ounce, it doesn't flex near as deep.  Casting off the tip, it's a close-in scalpel with the half ounce, overall gives more distance than I could ever need, and skips the half-ounce like a champ (reverse spiral cast) - much easier than when I tried skipping a half-ounce on the Falcon Glass (para).
The fast mid of the Smith is also going to strike better than the Falcon - even with the soft tip of the Smith. 

_____________________________________

 

The best definition of a soft tip rod is that it adds a light-lure range to an otherwise fast taper.  This is where new solid-tip tapers are heading, and the Japanese are way ahead on this curve. 

But if you want to give it a name, it's a progressive or super-progressive taper, the opposite of a para taper. 

 

[RDB]

2 hours ago, ChrisD46 said:

*The more expensive rods can have what seem to be more hybrid / multiple actions built into the rod (i.e. MH / F with a soft tip . With less expensive rods , a softer tip only comes with a moderate action .

A soft tip is relative and depends on a number of choices when making of the rod.  I have a H/F Phenix Feather (~$150) and it has the softest tip of any rod I have ever used (too soft for jigs IMO).  I don’t own Dobyn’s rods but I have tried a Dobyns Fury H/F and I found it to have a soft tip and they are slightly more than $100.  Here are a few quotes from pro’s regarding skipping & pitching rods:

 

Bryan Thrift

Another important piece is the rod tip. "I like a softer tip to load up when you begin to make a skip," he said. "It will make the bait go much further." Even with a light tip, the heavy action of his signature series rod has the backbone he needs for bigger fish

 

Denny Brauer

Regardless of which rod you choose, you need one with some flex in the tip. A little spring at the end of your rod will help you properly present your bait. A tip that's too stiff will cause your pitches and flips to turn into lobs. This will destroy both your accuracy and your distance.

 

The Fitzgerald rods Bryan talks about above are ~$180.  You can find softer tip rods in most price ranges.

3 hours ago, PhishLI said:

Then tune back in! By page 3 we'll be debating the nuances of gutter cleaning.

The OP asked a question…it’s a discussion forum ?.  I believe the gutter cleaning question is the 3rd post down on the “everything else” board.

[MickD]

2 hours ago, ChrisD46 said:

The more expensive rods can have what seem to be more hybrid / multiple actions built into the rod (i.e. MH / F with a soft tip . With less expensive rods , a softer tip only comes with a moderate action .

This is all subjective.  If you really want to understand rods you have to get into the numbers.  What is "less expensive?"  What is "more expensive?"  What is "MH?"  What is "F?"  Hybrid?  It's all in our minds, which are all different.  With different perceptions.

 

I don't mean to be a pain, but probably am being one by continuing to emphasize that all these subjective descriptions do very little to bring clarity to the issue.  They simply don't mean the same to everyone.  However, a CCS ERN (effective rod number) of 25 means only one thing.  All rods with ERN's of 25 will have the same power.  They will have the same power to all of us.  It's like 60 miles per hour is 60 miles per hour to all of us.  It might be slow to some of us and fast to some of us, but it's 60 miles per hour to all of us.  All rods with AA (action angle) of 82 will have the same action, and most would consider it extra fast.  Some might call it fast instead of extra fast, but it's still 82 degrees to all of us.  

 

The fact is that price has really nothing to do with what powers and actions are available-blank manufacturers can give  you the same powers and actions at many price points.  What will differ between blanks at different price points are the weights and response times. (Think sensitivity) To get minimum weight at the same power takes more expensive materials.  Same for faster response times.  

"

31 minutes ago, RDB said:

Regardless of which rod you choose, you need one with some flex in the tip.

This quote from a pro is the perfect illustration of how little value subjective comments like this are.  I would say that every rod I've ever held had "some flex in the tip."  But he obviously isn't talking about every rod I've ever held, so he and I obviously are not on the same page.   He has something specific in mind, but is not communicating it very accurately.  How much flex in the tip is Denny talking about?  What are the units for "flex?"    Only he really knows from that statement.  I think he is advocating for what most would call  an extra fast action, but I'm not really sure.  

[RDB]

34 minutes ago, MickD said:

This quote from a pro is the perfect illustration of how little value subjective comments like this are. 

I don’t think we are disagreeing on subjective…almost everything in fishing is subjective.  Everything with rod performance is subjective to a degree.  Instead of trying to quantify what universal tippy-ness is, just take what he is saying and apply it to you...or don’t.  As anglers, we should be good at this.  His point is HE believes having some tip matters in a pitching rod performance…Bryan says the same thing and the tippy-ness is not necessarily the same as action.  If you disagree that the same power/action rods can’t have different tip flexes, that’s fine.  You define what that means to you.  If it’s of no value, that’s great.  I personally find some value as even though I may not have a concrete formula for tipy-ness, it’s a component I can consider based on my needs.  The OP asked what pro’s mean when they say soft tip and IMO, this is what they are referring to.

[RDB]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

I think he is advocating for what most would call  an extra fast action, but I'm not really sure.

If you’re asking, he was referring to a rod made by American Rodsmiths and I think it was either MH/F or H/F.  The Bryan Thrift rod was a H/F.  I just grabbed the first 2 articles that came up that dealt with the OP’s question.  I’m likely stating the obvious but XF just means the rod deflects in the upper 20ish% of the rod.

[MickD]

2 hours ago, RDB said:

I’m likely stating the obvious but XF just means the rod deflects in the upper 20ish% of the rod.

Yes, and if it's not too powerful it will have a "soft tip."  If it's too powerful the tip will not likely be what most would call "soft tip."  But I know that if the rod has an ERN of about 16 and an AA of 80 or close, most would consider the tip soft.  If it has an ERN of about 16 and an AA of about 55 most would not call the tip soft.  If I have a rod I like and it's a 16/80 but I call it a "MXF" what chance do you think I could get a very similar rod by ordering a "MXF?" from another maker?  If it's a St Croix it will probably have an ERN of about 20, if a Dobyns, from what I hear, it could be an ERN of 13.  The action would likely be about an AA of 78 from St Croix, and I don't know what I would get from Dobyns.  

 

More and more blank makers are publishing their CCS numbers and we custom builders, by using them, can pretty much duplicate the power and actions of rod people like, regardless of the maker.

 

I think you have to admit that "some flex in the tip" doesn't do a very good job of describing a rod.

 

Good discussion.  I hope some "truths" get through.    

 

 

[RDB]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

Yes, and if it's not too powerful it will have a "soft tip."  If it's too powerful the tip will not likely be what most would call "soft tip."  But I know that if the rod has an ERN of about 16 and an AA of 80 or close, most would consider the tip soft.  If it has an ERN of about 16 and an AA of about 55 most would not call the tip soft.  If I have a rod I like and it's a 16/80 but I call it a "MXF" what chance do you think I could get a very similar rod by ordering a "MXF?" from another maker?  If it's a St Croix it will probably have an ERN of about 20, if a Dobyns, from what I hear, it could be an ERN of 13.  The action would likely be about an AA of 78 from St Croix, and I don't know what I would get from Dobyns.  

 

More and more blank makers are publishing their CCS numbers and we custom builders, by using them, can pretty much duplicate the power and actions of rod people like, regardless of the maker.

 

I think you have to admit that "some flex in the tip" doesn't do a very good job of describing a rod.

 

Good discussion.  I hope some "truths" get through.    

 

 

I agree…and I am enjoying the discussion.  I think we are maybe misunderstanding each other’s points.  I agree with your points above.  Remember the OP’s question…why do people refer to a soft tip.  This is something you hear pro’s say ALL the time, especially with bottom contact rods.  My point is that rods with the same off the shelf specs can have different tip flexes.  A “powerful” rod CAN have a softer tip RELATIVE to other “powerful” rods.  IMO, that is what pro’s mean when they say they want a pitching rod, skipping rod, etc. with more tip.  I also agree that “ more tip” or “some flex in the tip” is a poor descriptor.  The problem is I just don’t know how you can have a uniform, objective off the shelf tip measure for rods in the same class.  I may be wrong in my interpretation of the meaning behind why pro’s always say this but after hearing and discussing this thousands of times, this is my interpretation of the thinking behind the statement.

 

Edit:  I appreciate your knowledge…I too have spent some time dabbling in the rod game.  The problem is you are trying to teach calculus when 95% of the class still doesn’t understand basic math (not the people on this board obviously ?).  

[MickD]

Many of the pros don't really understand the numbers of what they instinctively know they like.   I've heard them talking action when they mean power, and vice versa.  

1 hour ago, RDB said:

A “powerful” rod CAN have a softer tip RELATIVE to other “powerful” rods.

Of course.  If it's an "X fast" action it has to have a softer tip compared other "powerful" rods which are  not "X fast."  

 

Regarding teaching, the more we teach the more is learned.

[RDB]

45 minutes ago, MickD said:

Many of the pros don't really understand the numbers of what they instinctively know they like.   I've heard them talking action when they mean power, and vice versa.  

Of course.  If it's an "X fast" action it has to have a softer tip compared other "powerful" rods which are  not "X fast."  

 

Regarding teaching, the more we teach the more is learned.

Fair enough…we obviously are not on the same page based on your XF v. non-XF comment.  I’ll accept the blame for poorly communicating and was only trying to address the OP’s question.  I’m of the opinion that some H/F rods have more tip than other H/F rods and gave a personal example using rods I own.  I’m not talking XF v. non XF rods.  There are a number of skipping & pitching rods that are H/F and are specifically designed with softer tips.  I’ll leave it there.  You obviously disagree that there are differences unless you change power or action and debating is not going to solve either of our positions.  As for pro’s, I’m not going to judge their understanding of fishing or rods as I am in no position to judge…their fishing game is likely stronger than mine.  Even though they often use flip and pitch interchangeably but I’m fairly sure they know the difference.  Anyway, I enjoyed the discussion.  Good luck teaching everyone about ERN & AA, you have your work cut out for you when most still can’t accurately describe power and action.  The bunny slopes may be a more appropriate starting point but some may do well starting on the black diamonds✌️.

[MontclairDave]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:00 PM, kingmotorboat said:

Dobyns champion 735c is the softest tip stoutest backbone rod I’ve ever used. It’s absolutely insane

Would you say the 705c has a similarly impressive soft tip/stout backbone? I always wonder how much (if any) of a longer rod’s characteristics translate to shorter versions of same rod (an important question for us kayakers who prefer shorter rods).

[MickD]

28 minutes ago, RDB said:

I’m of the opinion that some H/F rods have more tip than other H/F rods

Of course that is possible, even probable since all H's are not the same and all F's are not the same.  

[jimanchower]

16 hours ago, MontclairDave said:

Would you say the 705c has a similarly impressive soft tip/stout backbone? I always wonder how much (if any) of a longer rod’s characteristics translate to shorter versions of same rod (an important question for us kayakers who prefer shorter rods).

 

I have the DC705c and I would say that it does have a soft tip for its overall power, but I also don't have any similarly-spec'd rods to compare to. I recently [impulse-]bought a Levante Perfect Pitch, thinking that it would replace the Dobyns, but just based on handling them at the house I think I'll let the Megabass rod go to a new owner.

[kingmotorboat]

On 2/18/2022 at 6:27 PM, MontclairDave said:

Would you say the 705c has a similarly impressive soft tip/stout backbone? I always wonder how much (if any) of a longer rod’s characteristics translate to shorter versions of same rod (an important question for us kayakers who prefer shorter rods).

no it’s got less tip in my experience something bout that extra 3 inches and xf action