First Rod Build Help: 3pc for mostly light worm use

[RipHair]

Thanks to some of your suggestions on blanks, I ended up settling on a Rainshadow SB841-3 for weightless and up to 1/4oz weight worm use in clear and light cover waters mostly in the NE. I plan on spooling this with 6-8# FC (no leaders of course). Will be paired with a Shimano Stradic FK 2500HGFK spinning reel.

 

@MickD and I did some CCS analysis in the rod-blank specific thread and I think it's agreed this rod should do well.

 

This will be my first ever rod build and my goal is to make this hopefully as light as possible within a reasonable price point. I put together the following table of components I will need to order (blank is already ordered). I'm having trouble deciding on the guides after the reduction train though - do I need Fuji KB and KT? I suppose I need to find a good article or calculator for guides to determine spacing and count and type.

 

I wanted to retain as much lightness as is economically reasonable so went with titanium torzite tip-top. Is it worth using titanium for any of the other guides? Or is there another more reasonable build I should consider?

 

Since I'm using straight FC, I opted for the 4mm guides - never tried micro guides but I figure why not plus they're lighter and a bit smaller for this travel application.

 

I will also order both the SKSS in split grip and VSSM in split grip but I'm having trouble determining which grips and lengths to order. I want to stick with Fuji cork. Any suggestion on SKSS and VSSM configurations? Also is there any difference between VSS and VSSM? Mudhole has only VSSM but GetBitOutdoors has both for the same price.

 

Blank:	Rainshadow SB841-3
Reel Seat:	SKSS - Graphite/Nylon Nut Spinning Kit
Fore grip:	?
Rear grip:	?
Butt:	Fuji® Fighting Butt for SK2 Seats
Tip-Top Guide:	Fuji KG Titanium Torzite, Ring Size: 4, Tube Size: 4.5
Reduction Guides:	Fuji KL-H Alconite 20H - 10H - 5.5M BC Gray
Belly Guides:	Fuji KB 4mm Alconite BC Gray?
Guides:	Fuji KT 4mm Alconite Titanium?

 

Flex Coat Epoxy (Bottle Size: 4oz. Low Build kit)

Batson Forecast Standard Hook Keepers Small Dark Titanium Smoke

Fuji NOCP Poly Thread Size A 001-Black

u40 Rod Bond Epoxy 4oz

 

Some other questions before I do the build:

 

 

1. Do I need to go one size higher on tip-top tube?

2. Is a BIC lighter fine to get bubbles out of the FC epoxy?

3. If for whatever reason I switch to 12# braid + 10# FC and tie an fg leader, should this be able to get through the 4mm guides?

 

Thanks a lot for all your help and suggestions!

 

[MickD]

Most suggest 1/2 size higher on tip-top.  but if the one you have is a little too tight you often can gain a little room by sticking a bodkin or ice pick down its throat and working it around.  If there are any  burrs or local tight spots it most likely will get it to slide on . Do not sand the tip.  I think Torzite is overkill.  I've never grooved a SIC.  While they are great tiptops, even the titanium SIC is pretty pricey.  I use LG or the Arowana in SIC.  but it's your rod.

 

Yes on the BIC  lighter, but just use the edge of the flame near the blank as you rotate the blank.  You don't want to get the epoxy really hot and you don't want any soot to form.  Mix your epoxy, warmed a little by submerging the bottoms of the bottles in hot water in the sink until they feel warm,  for 120 seconds, making sure to incorporate all the epoxy into the mix.  Take it from the center as any not mixed well will be at the edge. 

 

Size 4 guides will pass what you propose, even if you have to use an Alberto.  If you use an Alberto finish it by really pulling it really tight and adding two half hitches of the braid tag end and pull them tight.  I find this Alberto more reliable than the LG, but if you can do a reliable FG, it is the smallest knot.  

 

Since most of the contact of the hand will be on the seat you don't need much of any fore or rear grips.  I just use one inch custom turned ramps off the seat, then a butt knob on the butt end.  I turn my own from cork rings.  I think that seat "kit" you are  using is designed to be up-locking with the nut covering the threads??  If yes, no front grip is necessary.  A minimal rear grip can be used, mostly just for looks since there is not much hand contact there anyway.  

 

Go to the Anglersresource.net for guide help.  I use exactly what you are proposing for guide sizes, KLH 20-10-5.5M, two KB4's , then 4 KT4's on 7 foot rods.  Many builders only use  3 KT's, but for a very fast tip I like an extra one.  The titanium tiptop might make a slight difference in tip response time.  Titanium runners will have a measurable effect on the true natural frequency of the rod (yes I've tested it) but not a major effect.  I've made a lot of rods with stainless steel running guides and they work just fine.  Using titanium reduction guides on this EXFast action blank probably will have no effect on frequency because the butt section is  so stiff.  The minor weight penalty probably will not be noticeable. 

 

The site has a tutorial on a two line stress test.  Use it.  A two line test actually is easier than a one line test as the guides do not have to take the stress of loading the blank and they can be moved without unloading the rod.  I place my first guide 19 inches from the tip of the reel spool shaft, use the calculated spacing of the three reduction guides found on the KR software on the site, then use the two line stress test to locate the runners.  If you have trouble holding the tiny KT's while wrapping, come on back and ask for tips.

 

I put my keepers an inch or inch and a half in front of the front grip/reel seat on the bottom and have had no troubles with line snagging on them.  Do not put it on top or at 90 degrees.  I know those positons don't work well.  

 

If you are using black thread it doesn't have to be NOCP.  Regular nylon or polyester will work fine and will have a little more sheen than NOCP.   

 

I don't think Fuji offers titanium alconite guides any more-you have to go SIC to get titanium.  If I were you I would use stainless all the way.  

 I should point out that the KLH 20 is so high (that's why it works so well) that it won't fit in some round travel rod tubes.  There is a good one that has a triangular section that I use that can hold two spin rods and two fly rods.  It is by Temple Fork Outfitters and comes in two lengths.

 

You may have seen the photo before, but I include it to show how I do this rod and other similar spin rods.  

[Lyman X]

2 or 3 KB's followed by KT's as well. I use 4.5 runners. I don't care for split seats so no help there. Very nice presentation of info pertaining to the build. You're to be commended for that!

[RipHair]

I've updated the list to include a few options. Thanks to feedback I included 2 KBs and 4 KTs. Items in bold are prob what I will use for this build but I'll be ordering the the others since I'll be doing more builds (hopefully this first build won't be a disaster!)

	Model	Component	Price	Count	Ext
Blank:	SB841-3	Rainshadow SB841-3	$79.69	1	$79.69
Reel Seat #1:	KSKSS16/ASH	Hidden Thread Hood	$6.45	1	$6.45
	SKSPSN16/B	Threaded Barrel	$1.95	1	$1.95
	SKSS16/B	SK2 Spinning Body	$2.79	1	$2.79
Fore grip:	BGKS16C	Cork Hidden Thread Sleeve for KSKSS16/ASH	$5.29	1	$5.29
Rear grip:	RGK6016RCW	Flared Taper Cork for SKSS16/B	$5.82	1	$5.82
Reel Seat #2:	VSSM16/B	Fuji VSS Spinning Seat Graphite Body	$6.65	1	$6.65
Fore grip:	FGVSS-16C	Cork Contoured Split Grip	$6.99	1	$6.99
Rear grip:		Not needed
Butt:	BGK485RC	Cork Standard Butt Grip	$5.82	1	$5.82
Reduction Guides:		Fuji KL Alconite BC Grey 20H - 10H - 5.5M	$11.59	1	$11.59
		Fuji KL Alconite CC Silver 20H - 10H - 5.5M	$11.02	1	$11.02
Running Guides:		Fuji KB Alconite BC Grey 4mm	$2.39	2	$4.78
		Fuji KB Alconite CC Silver 4mm	$2.30	2	$4.60
		Fuji KT Single Foot Alconite BC Grey 4mm	$2.30	4	$9.20
		Fuji KT Single Foot SIC Titanium 4mm	$7.47	4	$29.88
		Fuji KT Single Foot Torzite Titanium 4mm	$6.77	4	$27.08
Tip-Top Guide:		Fuji KG Titanium Torzite, Ring 4mm, Tube 4.5mm	$23.65	1	$23.65
		Fuji LG CC Gunmetal SIC Ring 4mm Tube 4.5mm	$5.49	1	$5.49

 

 

 

Indeed going to SIC or Torzite really jacks up the price. I think I settled on BC Grey or CC Silver for the KL, KB and KTs. Switching KT from Alconite to Torzite is another $20 which is about the same as going from LG to KG at the tip-top. I couldn't find specific weights on any of these so it's hard to quantify cost benefit of upgrading either KT or KG to titanium. Going all titanium + torzite puts me at a ~$40 premium but since this will be my lightest rod, it might make the most sense to do it here?

 

I also figured out the grip situation thanks to the PDF at anglersresource.net that lays all this stuff out in a much more clear fashion compared to the MudHole and GetBitOutdoors sites. Not sure how anglersresource makes money as I don't see where you can buy anything but they have one of the most professional websites and thank them for their excellent resource.

 

@Lyman X I think I'll follow @MickD's suggestion and use 2 KBs on this light-weight spin outfit but will prob use 2-3 for my casting setup. Is your reasoning to use 3 KBs for casting or heavier spin builds?

 

@MickD that's a sweet rod and I wish I could work with raw cork and not have to buy these off the shelf ones but I think you need a special machine to spin the cork? Wonder what they did before electricity if that's the case...

 

Thanks for the catch on the tip-top size up, I'll put that in. Also, I calculated that I should be able to get away with VSS size 16 which has an ID of 13mm.

[MickD]

I strongly recommend going with a size 17 seat for better ergonomics-I NEVER use size 16 any more, even on ultralights.  If you change to 17 make sure that any other parts that are specific to seat size are changed.

 

I have quantified the advantage of a titanium tiptop vs stainless on true natural frequency on a different blank and it was measurable but small.  You would never be able to feel the difference.  But if you want to do the absolute lightest you can do and the cost doesn't scare you, go for it.  

 

I alway use 2 KB's on spin just to be on the safe side, don't feel that 3 KB's or even more on cast would be overkill.  With cast I use the RV 6 for the first guide, then KB's and KT's all the same size to the tip, usually 5.5 on cast.  With cast I figure I'll be using heavier leaders if using braid (which I'm getting away from to get better casting quality with mono-without leader knots one can go as small as he wants if icing is not an issue)

 

Are you familiar with the Forhan locking loop for single foot guides?  Makes sense for these small guides and only takes a few seconds more per wrap.  I always use it for all single foot guides.

[MickD]

I didn't answer your question about machining cork rings.  They can easily be machined on a drill press with a cheap, easy, "jig" that stabilizes the lower end of a mandrel on which the cork components are mounted.  If you need details message me and I'll  send the details.

[spoonplugger1]

Just for reference, the SB720-4 was a more powerful and faster blank than I anticipated by it's specs. If you want a four piece, just might work for you.

[RipHair]

2 hours ago, spoonplugger1 said:

Just for reference, the SB720-4 was a more powerful and faster blank than I anticipated by it's specs. If you want a four piece, just might work for you.

Thanks for reporting on this. Do you think it would do well with weighless worms? Reason I ask is because while this thread is detailing my "light" spinning setup I will also want to be building a similar "light" casting setup so will be looking for something comparable to the SB841-3.

[RipHair]

@MickD I think I'll have to order both sizes to be sure, I have no idea what sizes are on my existing rods to be able to compare and I don't have a micrometer to find gauge. I sure hope dry-fitting is secure enough to get a basic feel for ones reel seat/grip setup.

 

For this first build I think I'll prob forgo the titanium since I'm going 4mm anyway and once I have a few builds under my belt I'll reserve the expensive builds for later when I know precisely what I want.

 

Will certainly keep the Forham locking loop in mind, thanks for let me know about it.

 

I think working with cork is out for me. I don't have a drill press or anything similar. Heck I don't even have a cuisinart.

 

[MickD]

The 17 size in that seat is not big, but does fit the hand well.  On another forum the moderator, one of the experts in ergonomics of fishing rods, uses sizes 18-20 in pipe seats.  I assure you that you can order just the 17 and be pleased.  'and you won't have a 16 to get rid of.  

 

An idea to give you some confidence:  measure the distance from your thumb tip to your pinkie tip with the hand opened as far as you can.  Mine is 9 inches.  Unless yours is significantly less than that, a 17 will serve you better than a 16.

[RipHair]

1 minute ago, MickD said:

The 17 size in that seat is not big, but does fit the hand well.  On another forum the moderator, one of the experts in ergonomics of fishing rods, uses sizes 18-20 in pipe seats.  I assure you that you can order just the 17 and be pleased.  'and you won't have a 16 to get rid of.  

 

Fair enough and thanks!

 

One point I forgot to ask about: are winding checks or epoxy ramps 100% required? I didn't include them but I notice most builds have them. Do they have any sort of functional purpose or are they mostly just for aesthetics?

[MickD]

Winding checks are used to provide a finished look at the end of a grip.  

but they are not necessary, it's all cosmetic.   Epoxy ramps are used to provide a smooth transition between the front of the seat and the blank.  I think you plan to use a thread cover over the reel seat threads, if so, then nothing else is necessary.  If you look at my photo carefully you'll notice that I do up-locking seats, which put the threads at the bottom.  I use a small ramp, not epoxy, but often cork or polurethane reel seat arbors "machined" to what I want off the front of the reel seat hood.  Nice transition to the blank, but not absolutely necessary.  

[Lyman X]

I use KB's where there's more force being applied than I like the very small foot of the KT to handle. I always use at least 2 and have used as many as 4. How many I use and on which type rod is a judgement call. KB's are a good bit stronger guide.

[RipHair]

Anyone have any pictures of what non-color treated nylon thread wraps look like after using epoxy? I'm just curious to know how subtle the color ends up to help me be able to pick a color for my wrapping.

[MickD]

Not sure whether pics on a computer would be good enough, also, with all the colors the question is not easily answered.  

 

Lighter colors tend to go translucent and get a little lighter.

 

Darker colors tend also to go a little translucent, but change tone and get darker.  

 

Best way to figure it out is to take the colors you think you might use and do some test wraps on an old blank which is about the same color as the one you plan to use, then wet the wraps with alcohol.

 

It will be fairly close.  One example of one that I like is Gudbrod garnet, a dark red. Similar to Pro Wrap Merlot.  It turns into a color resembling ripe sweet cherries.  

 

No CP threads have a chalk or something in them that allows them to retain color without CP, but they just don't have the sheen that regular thread with CP has.  I think your best bet is to choose your color that you want from regular threads and use CP.  I put on a lot on the first coat, let it set a couple minutes then blot the excess off.  Let it dry and then do another thinner coat.  If you do it right one coat should do, but I do two just to be sure.  Make sure you see it capillary into the tunnels as you apply it, and keep applying it until it doesn't capillary into the tunnel any more.

[RipHair]

55 minutes ago, MickD said:

Not sure whether pics on a computer would be good enough, also, with all the colors the question is not easily answered.  

 

Lighter colors tend to go translucent and get a little lighter.

 

Darker colors tend also to go a little translucent, but change tone and get darker.  

 

Best way to figure it out is to take the colors you think you might use and do some test wraps on an old blank which is about the same color as the one you plan to use, then wet the wraps with alcohol.

 

It will be fairly close.  One example of one that I like is Gudbrod garnet, a dark red. Similar to Pro Wrap Merlot.  It turns into a color resembling ripe sweet cherries.  

 

No CP threads have a chalk or something in them that allows them to retain color without CP, but they just don't have the sheen that regular thread with CP has.  I think your best bet is to choose your color that you want from regular threads and use CP.  I put on a lot on the first coat, let it set a couple minutes then blot the excess off.  Let it dry and then do another thinner coat.  If you do it right one coat should do, but I do two just to be sure.  Make sure you see it capillary into the tunnels as you apply it, and keep applying it until it doesn't capillary into the tunnel any more.

 

Thanks for this. I think it was actually your advice before that made me cancel my NoCP black in the first place as you said regular CP thread would turn slightly translucent and have subtle overall effect which is precisely what I want! Would be great to have a very subtle dark red or gold you'd only really see if you looked closely. Was just curious if there were any example pics I could use to try to extrapolate start CP color -> end color to help in my purchase decision.

 

I think I'll take your advice and buy a few colors of regular nylon Size A and wrap one of my triumph blanks to see how it looks.

[MikeK]

Gudebrod 720 Light Gray

 

Photos don't do justice.  Doing your own tests are best.  FYI you can wrap nylon thread and put a couple drops of isopropyl alcohol on it to get a pretty good idea of how it will change with finish.

[RipHair]

17 minutes ago, MikeK said:

Gudebrod 720 Light Gray

 

Photos don't do justice.  Doing your own tests are best.  FYI you can wrap nylon thread and put a couple drops of isopropyl alcohol on it to get a pretty good idea of how it will change with finish.

 

 

I see what you mean and I certainly will. Thanks for posting nonetheless. How do you like the effect vs using NoCP or CP'ing thread?

I think I found an excellent example from one of the Flex Coat folks. Right at 2:16 he said he likes using untreated threads although not sure if it's because of the look or because he said it makes it strong? Indeed the finished product looks almost black but I bet you can see the subtle gold if you look close!

 

 

[MickD]

There is a lot of debate about whether CP weakens the joint between the thread/guide and the blank.  It is logical that it would since the way it works is to prevent the penetration of the thread by the epoxy.  From my experience in removing guides and wraps done both ways, it is definitely stronger if CP is not used.  BUT, a very big BUT, guides wrapped with CP on the threads are plenty well attached, and there is no reason to not do CP because you are worried about strength.  I have not done a build without CP in a long time, and I do not have any problems with guides moving.  As stated before, I do use the Forhan locking wrap on single foot guides.  (I don't do the blocking wraps, don't think they are needed, it's the loops around the guide that are most important).

[MikeK]

1 hour ago, RipHair said:

 

How do you like the effect vs using NoCP or CP'ing thread?

 

I don't use CP.  Most NOCP (ProWrap is called ColorFast) is OK, a few colors look really flat.  I use a lot of metallic thread too.

 

[Chris Catignani]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:31 PM, RipHair said:

Anyone have any pictures of what non-color treated nylon thread wraps look like after using epoxy? I'm just curious to know how subtle the color ends up to help me be able to pick a color for my wrapping.

The color will always go dark...like its wet. Black looks the same...but any thing else goes dark. It will actually take on a lighter (more colorful) look in the sun.

 

I have on occasion created trim bands and also a camo appearance with just color preserver on that part of the thread.

[RipHair]

4 hours ago, Chris Catignani said:

The color will always go dark...like its wet. Black looks the same...but any thing else goes dark. It will actually take on a lighter (more colorful) look in the sun.

That's exactly the effect I'm after and I could swear I had some rods back in the day that sound sort of like this - being pretty dark but lit up under direct sunlight.

 

Also, just wanted to update everyone that I'll be building this in the next few weeks. I'm in the middle of a move so not sure if I want to take it on before or after. Also, I'm still waiting on the 2 Rainshadow blanks to arrive which haven't shipped yet...

 

Here is the final list except not sure about butt grip: BGK485C vs BGKSC; would prefer the smaller one but hard to visualize if it's too small without ordering both. Don't plan on putting any grips on this but will dryfit and check if the SK2 is enough on its own.

 

Actually ordering both size 16 and size 17 reel seats to compare. Same with KL-H: 20H - 10H - 5.5M and 16H - 8H - 5.5M. Will try16H for this lighter weight rod and see how it goes.

 

	Model	Component	Price	Count	Ext
Blank:	SB841-3	Rainshadow SB841-3	$79.69	1	$79.69
Reel Seat:	SKSS17/ASH	Fuji SK2 Graphite Hood with Graphite Nut SKSS - Size 17	$6.15	1	$6.15
	SKSS17/B	Fuji SK2 Spinning Body SKSS - Size 17	$2.95	1	$2.95
	SKPSN17/B	Fuji Threaded Barrel for SK2 Hoods SKPSN - Size 17	$1.95	1	$1.95
	NSA-17	Fuji Graphite Arbors - Size 17	$1.09	2	$2.18
Fore grip:		None
Rear grip:		None
Butt:	BGKSC	Butt Grip for Fuji Split Grip SK2 Reel Seats	$4.59	1	$4.59
Reduction Guides:		Fuji KL Alconite CC Silver 16H - 8H - 5.5M	$9.17	1	$9.17
Running Guides:		Fuji KB Alconite CC Silver 4mm	$2.09	2	$4.18
		Fuji KT Alconite CC Silver 4mm	$2.05	4	$8.20
Tip-Top Guide:		Fuji LG CC Gunmetal SIC Ring 4mm Tube 5mm	$4.89	1	$4.89
					$123.95

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by RipHair
formatting and more info

[Chris Catignani]

On 1/4/2022 at 2:37 PM, RipHair said:

Right at 2:16 he said he likes using untreated threads although not sure if it's because of the look or because he said it makes it strong?

If you have ever had to strip the guides off a rod you would know that thread without and CP is way harder to remove...its like concreate.

So ...yes it is by far a better bond for the guide.

When you use color preserver...its seals the thread and doesnt let the epoxy seep down to the guide foot.

Using CP will make your thread look like what it looks like on the spool...and it just a tad bit lighter vs thread with no CP at all.

Each way has its merits. Over the years I personally have opted to use no CP....and tend to use a lighter color thread (since it will eventually go dark)

[MickD]

Yes, without CP it's a lot stronger, but I don't think the bonding strength we are talking about is a significant issue since epoxy over  CP is plenty strong.  I almost always use CP and have never had an epoxy/thread/guide failure because of my choice.  The real question to be answered, in my opinion, is what color effect is desired.

 

The only way to see exactly what will happen with regular thread without CP is to do real test wraps on a similarly colored blank section, finish them, and see what it looks like.  Short of doing that, one really cannot predict it accurately. 

[Chris Catignani]

46 minutes ago, MickD said:

Yes, without CP it's a lot stronger, but I don't think the bonding strength we are talking about is a significant issue since epoxy over  CP is plenty strong.  

I have to agree...to a point. Sometimes when a guide gets bent and bent back...it can come loose and be able to pull out of the thread.