Diminishing returns.

[Catt]

On 12/22/2021 at 9:12 AM, Mike L said:

My most expensive rods are reserved for where the most sensitivity is required.
For a long time that level for me was around 300.
But with today’s materials and manufacturing processes, I can live with something a little less without sacrificing the most. 
 

 

 

 

Mike

 

In whose hands is the rod?

 

Not everybody's sense of feel is the same, some need help, some don't.

 

Then you have to consider interpretation, whose brain is interpreting what's being felt.

 

Like Mikey I do just fine with where I'm at.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Catt
Operator Error

[padon]

i think another part of it is just what you enjoy and like to spend your money on. i dont wear designer clothes drive expensive cars (well my truck was expensive but it was used and they are all expensive now) live in the fanciest house or fish out of the fanciest boat. but i do enjoy the feel of a more expensive rod and reel. so thats what i use. doesnt mean i catch any more fish i just enjoy them. i wont buy the true high end stuff because i just cant bring myself to pay that much.

[Junk Fisherman]

I have often thought that the $100 - $200 range is the sweet spot for getting the most value for your rods and reels.  But with the SLX and lower-end Tatula reels, that range is going closer to $100 for reels IMO.  Probably a little less for spinning reels.

 

Most of my rods retail in the $250 to $350 range and I own a couple that cost $475 to $550.  As I go up in the price, my rods do go up in sensitivity.  My $550 Steez is easily the best rod I have ever used but it definitely isn't 100% better than the $250ish Dobyns Champion that I have used for the same application.  Is it "worth it" to pay for the high-end equipment?  That's a personal opinion.  Like others have mentioned, fishing is my only real hobby so I don't mind spending top dollar for my favorite rods.  The only rods I will pay $500+ for are my bottom-contact rods.  Reels I usually keep around $200 or so.  I care much more about getting a top of the line rod than reel.   I am picking up another Steez rod this winter but the reel will be a Curado.  

[Catt]

Said it before ?

 

My Worm Rod is a $100 Powell Inferno 703C Medium Heavy X-Fast.

 

My Jig Rod is a $160 Dawia Tatula TTU711MHXB Medium Heavy X-Fast.

 

On a firm bottom I can feel the instant a 1/4 oz bullet weight hits bottom.

 

[king fisher]

     There was a time, when I lived in a cabin without running water or electricity.  My car was worth south of $500.  I wore clothes bought at the second hand store.  I flew a plane, made in 1947 held together with duct tape, and a prayer.  But my fly rods cost over $400, and a couple reels even more.  I bought more fishing gear than I could ever use, and it was all top end.

           Now I live near the beach in a condo (married now wife requires indoor plumbing and electricity), drive an average used car, even own some brand new clothes bought at Walmart, and only fly in my dreams.  My Kayak cost as much as my cabin did and my fishing gear collection while still large is far more economical, with rods and reels costing around $100 each.

      The important thing is I still feel like a kid, every time I'm on the water with a rod in my hand.  The cost of my gear may go down, but my returns will never diminish.  

[MacJig]

5 minutes ago, king fisher said:

     There was a time, when I lived in a cabin without running water or electricity.  My car was worth south of $500.  I wore clothes bought at the second hand store.  I flew a plane, made in 1947 held together with duct tape, and a prayer.  But my fly rods cost over $400, and a couple reels even more.  I bought more fishing gear than I could ever use, and it was all top end.

           Now I live near the beach in a condo (married now wife requires indoor plumbing and electricity), drive an average used car, even own some brand new clothes bought at Walmart, and only fly in my dreams.  My Kayak cost as much as my cabin did and my fishing gear collection while still large is far more economical, with rods and reels costing around $100 each.

      The important thing is I still feel like a kid, every time I'm on the water with a rod in my hand.  The cost of my gear may go down, but my returns will never diminish.  

Yup. That is truly the wonder of fishing. You can be a kid all over again and no one is going to call you childish. 

[ironbjorn]

Simple for me.

 

I use Dobyns Sierra, Kaden, and Champion XP rods.

 

I use Shimano SLX XT, Daiwa Tatula CT, Lew's Speed Spool, and Lew's Tournament Pro casting reels.

 

I use Daiwa Legalis, Shimano Sahara, and Shimano NASCI spinning reels.

 

That's what I like, and that's where I like to be.

 

[Alex from GA]

Like some of the others my worm/bottom contact rods are the most expensive.  They're not that expensive because I roll my own and a really good blank is less than $150.  For reels I use less than $100 spinning and $150 bait casting.  

[Zcoker]

These high end bass fishing rods are all over the place, just like the saltwater high end fishing rods. I have the high end Zenaq $1500 GT popping rods all the way down to the $700 St Croix Legend surf rods and these rods DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE in catching fish, a very big difference IMHO. The engineering and the components that goes into them is absolutely incredible. They go a long, long way in every single solitary detail to get the job done as perfectly as possible. Often times, one needs every single detail of the entire setup to perform flawlessly in order to get that nice fish landed. I agree, however, that most see this as purely subjective, thinking that a $50 Walmart setup will do the same thing. And just maybe it might. It all boils down to anything that will get that fish, expensive or not. Anything that instills pure confidence when trying to win something (like a nice fish) is usually the best way to win outright, in my opinion. 

[Mike L]

42 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

My Jig Rod is a $160 Dawia Tatula TTU711MHXB Medium Heavy X-Fast.

 

On a firm bottom I can feel the instant a 1/4 oz bullet weight hits bottom.

 

The more I use mine the more I like it!

Didn't expect it to be as light and sensitive as it is for the price.

The most expensive rod I own is a Loomis GLX. While the Tatula isn’t exactly on par to it, it’s becoming my favorite. 

 

 

 

 

Mike
 

[Darth-Baiter]

Im probably a middle of the road guy. There are certainly some rods and reels I feel are outside my self imposed budgetary limits. I don’t even want them.   Some guys think I’m a baller. 
 

I do know we kinda like what we start off with.  I’m happy with my gear.  I don’t covet anyones stuff. Hell I don’t even look at peoples stuff.  Maybe just their baits. 

[Catt]

20 minutes ago, Mike L said:

The more I use mine the more I like it!

Didn't expect it to be as light and sensitive as it is for the price.

 

The Tatula remains me very much of the Crucials I've owned.

 

That Inferno is every bit as sensitive but is ideal for lighter Texas Rigs.

[Deleted account]

21 hours ago, MacJig said:

I also think weather an angler is more of a shore angler or a boat angler comes into play as well. Does a very expensive rod help out the shore angler more than the boat angler or vice versa?

No. The tackles' suitability to it's intended purpose isn't affected by where one uses it or the skill/experience level of the user, it only seems that way to that particular person. 

 

[DitchPanda]

For years I made very little money...like less than 25k a year. When that was the case my most expensive rod was $150. Back then I said someday when I make more money ill buy myself an arsenal if $500 rods. Now days I make pretty good money and my most expensive rod is? Around $150! Just don't see the reason..for me.

[T-Billy]

Prices are all over the place as far as what you get for your hard earned dollar in the rod dept. Some companies prices reflect their warranties and/or name recognition more than others.

 I've been touting ARK on here since buying my first one this summer. I now have 11 of them. 9 Tharps, a Cobb, and a Lancer Pro. I find them to be excellent values that fish well above their price points, especially for bottom contact techniques.

 Fit and finish has been fine. Well balanced, sensitive, built on the spine, and the action and taper descriptions seem spot on to me. Lots of good choices out there, but this is where I've found the most bang for my bucks. 

 My local dealer told me ARK does a great job standing behind their products too. He had a guy griping about his lancer pro (one of their cheaper series) guides shaving his flouro. They sent a replacement. He claimed the replacement was doing it too. They sent another. He was still having the issue. Shop owner checked it out and found a nick in his reels line guide. No issue with the rods. 

 I think the sweet spot with this companies rods is at the Tharp or Invoker Pro series. Just as was mentioned above, about second or third from the top. Diminishing returns above that.

 

 All my reels are in the $100-$180 range, and all are holding up well. Lew's, Penn and Shimano. I see no reason to spend more and think the point of diminishing returns is just above this neighborhood. 

 

 

[MickD]

The original question was, to paraphrase, "at what price point does one get a diminishing return from paying more for a rod."  Depends on what one is looking for in a rod.  As someone already mentioned, the most expensive rods are made of the most expensive and sensitive material, and will have high quality guides and often higher levels of bling.  But for some techniques sensitivity is not that important.  So you have to define what you want in a rod to answer the question, and it will be answered only for you and your definition of quality.  For example, is salt water corrosion capability important, or included in your definition of quality?  If not, paying for that corrosion capability is wasted money.  

 

I have to say at this point though that one never gets a "diminishing return," regardless of price.  But there is what I call a "sweet spot" in price where adding more money gets you a lesser increase in value. (And I think the original poster really meant to get at this issue)   I think, from my personal perspective, that that point on rod blanks for our typical bass fishing is around $80.  When you pay more, you will get more, but the differences in sensitivity/weight  between $80 and $100 will be less than you got when going from $60 to $80.  When you go from $100 to $150 you will get more "quality" as I define it, but not at the same ratio of "quality vs dollars added" that you got going from $80 to $100.  

 

For factory rods, which I'm not as familiar with, I would guess that the sweet spot is probably around $150.  But this is more of a guess than an informed declaration.

[thediscochef]

9 hours ago, MacJig said:

Okay, here is a topic that I would love to get your collective opinions on. Let me start with a question. At what price point does a fishing rod provide diminishing returns to the angler? In other words, is there really much difference between a $500 rod and a $300 rod, or $300 rod and a $200 rod? At what price point do you stop getting more bang for the buck? Like many anglers I like trying new fishing gear including new rods. But, would buying a $300 rod be ultra beneficial when I could get the same quality from a $150 rod? What about fishing reels? Is there more value comparatively with a higher end fishing reel? And if there is more benefit in buying the higher end rod, what manufacturers provide that kind of quality? Just curious what others think!

I think the line for diminishing returns is varied by angler. Some will be able to make use of the difference between $100 and $500 combos, some won't. I generally hover around the $200 mark for a combo that I'm just in love with (Tac40 plus Daiwa Fuego). That gets me into nicer guides and blanks, a reel with sealed innards, and some serious sensitivity. I think when you get to a point that you can't really pinpoint what you wish was different about your setup...that's where diminishing returns start.  

[MickD]

8 hours ago, Chris Catignani said:

Looking at the rods at the component level:

Guides: Anything over a $20 set of Aconite guides is overkill.

Handle components: Cork is cork...cheaper cork is a little more pitted.

Reel seat: Functionally they all do the same thing...though some seats are more desirable.

Thread: Is just thread.

Rods: This is where the rubber meets the road. Graphite typically cost more than a glass rod. Long rods cost more than short rods.

Higher modulus rods typically cost more the lower modulus rods. 

 

So...if you ask me, "What's a better deal?"

A: 6'6" - 57 modulus graphite for $100.

B: 6'6" - 57 modulus graphite for $300.

 

I have to go with A.

 

Reminds me of what is the best kind of salt to buy. Kosher, sea, flake, Himalayan, black, Hawaiian,  Celtic....etc...etc...

Under the hood its all NaCl (sodium chloride).

 

Gotta comment, all reel seats are not the same for doing their function, which is "seating the reel."  And holding it securely.  And all reel seats are not the same for ergonomics.  Simply the difference between a size 16 and 17 is significant.  But there are other differences, too, which may mean something to some but not to others.

 

Some cork on factory rods is so bad that it doesn't last.  It's not just about cosmetics, the pitting in some cork is so bad that it breaks down in a few years.  I've done repairs on some of the rods that are very popular and considered "premium" on this forum, and the seats were coming loose and the cork was disintegrating.  You most likely will not find a seat coming loose on a St. Croix or a J. Loomis.  And if the cork looks highly pitted, it most likely will not last.  Watch out for fillers which closely match the main cork color, but fill the pits and often come out in a few years.

 

I will argue that the rods which cost $300 and those that cost $100 will not have the same material in the blank.  I have a method of measuring the natural frequency of rod blanks, and sure enough, the pricier premium blanks have a higher natural frequency than the cheaper blanks.  While it is just my opinion, backed by some testing, I don't think that you will find a $100 rod with the same modulus as the $300 rod.

 

You have to define your requirements, what your definition of quality is, and then you can define YOUR sweet spot.

[CrankFate]

All I’m going to say is I routinely fish combos that are over $500 and I rarely ever see others fishing with such expensive gear.

[Columbia Craw]

I can’t establish what you can or can’t afford, want or need.  I know what I like and what works for me. I want certain features, powers and actions.  I spend/invest what I have to to get what I want. What I can say is I am open to 300.00 for very specific rods and 275.00 for reels but they are above the norm.

[Koz]

Good question and one I've often asked myself over the past 5 or 6 years as I got back into fishing again. When I got back into it I bought a cheap Flueger spinning reel and an Ugly Stick rod and I was catching a lot of bass.

 

Then I bought a baitcaster - an inexpensive Lew's American Hero combo ($80) and I caught a lot of bass. When I decided to add to my arsenal, I spent what I though was a lot of money on a Lew's Mach II combo ($179( and I caught a lot of bass.

 

This year I got a little caught up in spending and bought a pedal kayak and it snowballed from there. I didn't go wild, but I spent a lot more than I usually spent on gear including some $200 Shimano reels and some Dobyns and St. Croix rods.

 

And you know what I learned by upgrading my equipment? Nothing. Well, that's not quite true. I learned that the most important thing for me was being comfortable. That is in being comfortable with how much I spent and the comfort of the rods and reels I paired.

 

I love my Shimano reels. They feel and operate so much better than my less expensive reels. And I love my St. Croix rods. But you know what? I still have that old Lew's American Hero reel (now paired with a Dobyns) and it's still part of my arsenal out on my kayak. And it still catches fish.

 

So my advice - be comfortable with whatever you fish. I'm sure people that fish for a living feel differently, but for most of us the only diminishing returns we have is spending beyond our means and not enjoying the time out on the water. And I would bet that the guys that overspend on gear get a lot more ticked off about getting skunked than I do!

[txchaser]

My observations:

1) there's a major inflection point around $100. I think it is an important retail price point and there's a race to see how much a manufacturer can push to that price point. And often (but not always) below that price point it seems more cost engineering than value engineering.

2) For me, while I notice a difference in the 500+ price point in rods and reels, it isn't enough to warrant buying more. I gave it a shot, but wasn't for me. They are definitely better, but it isn't something I notice on the water. I treat them just like the other ones, no preference etc.

3) On a rod, getting the action just the way I want it is probably the most important thing. The rod I use for heavy open hook/medium swimjig/big but not enormous cranks is a MH fast mod rod that is below my typical price point. But I really like the way it fishes.

4) After a bunch of trial and error, I settled at about 350 retail on rods and reels, in my case the daiwa zillion reels and either kistler helium or poison adrena rods. Open to other rods but haven't had an application that would require it yet. As a bonus there's almost always a 20-25% sale price floating around if I'm patient, and that is much more rare in the $500+ zone.

 

However, I don't think we talk nearly enough about line quality in the context of rod/reel price points. Premium line really is different. Super-round no-fade braid casts a littler further and lasts way way longer than standard braid. Good flouro really is different than Vanish, and different products from teh same manufacturer have really different feel and properties. Mono seems to have less of a difference, but Armilo Defier is certainly different than my spool of big game. 

If you said I could choose between a $200 combo and any line I wanted, or a $1k combo with off-brand mono, I would take the former every time.

[schplurg]

Something like:

 

X = ((how much I want to spend) + (how much I can afford to spend)) / 2;

 

If married {

    X = X / 3;

}

[MacJig]

4 hours ago, Koz said:

Good question and one I've often asked myself over the past 5 or 6 years as I got back into fishing again. When I got back into it I bought a cheap Flueger spinning reel and an Ugly Stick rod and I was catching a lot of bass.

 

Then I bought a baitcaster - an inexpensive Lew's American Hero combo ($80) and I caught a lot of bass. When I decided to add to my arsenal, I spent what I though was a lot of money on a Lew's Mach II combo ($179( and I caught a lot of bass.

 

This year I got a little caught up in spending and bought a pedal kayak and it snowballed from there. I didn't go wild, but I spent a lot more than I usually spent on gear including some $200 Shimano reels and some Dobyns and St. Croix rods.

 

And you know what I learned by upgrading my equipment? Nothing. Well, that's not quite true. I learned that the most important thing for me was being comfortable. That is in being comfortable with how much I spent and the comfort of the rods and reels I paired.

 

I love my Shimano reels. They feel and operate so much better than my less expensive reels. And I love my St. Croix rods. But you know what? I still have that old Lew's American Hero reel (now paired with a Dobyns) and it's still part of my arsenal out on my kayak. And it still catches fish.

 

So my advice - be comfortable with whatever you fish. I'm sure people that fish for a living feel differently, but for most of us the only diminishing returns we have is spending beyond our means and not enjoying the time out on the water. And I would bet that the guys that overspend on gear get a lot more ticked off about getting skunked than I do!

Well put!

[QED]

If you know which rod characteristics you like, then bespoke rods are best, but the cost can be pretty high.  As for reels, bespoke isn't really an option but one can buy aftermarket "hop-up" parts such as spools, bearings, handles, etc., to get just what you want.