Lipless changing out hooks

[LrgmouthShad]

Hey ya'll,

 

So some fishermen called Matt Allen and Tim Little (maybe you've heard of them?) argue that it is imperative to use both ewg's and upgraded split rings on lipless to keep big fish hooked. Now I am a skeptical creature and do not immediately believe something I hear on the internet so I'd rather ask ya'll so I can get another internet response to blindly believe. But it's bassresource so that's okay. Kind of several questions. Are ewg's necessary or do they offer a distinct advantage over round bend trebles on lipless? Do most lipless come with split rings at risk of failure under the stress of a big fish? How can I tell if a bait comes with quality split rings? Any reason to use heavier gauge hooks on lipless? 

 

Thanks as always and I look forward to reading your responses. 

[813basstard]

I’ve found through extensive research that the closer I get a hook near a bass’s mouth, the hook up ratio increases. 
 

I realize this may not help you but it’s what the data has shown. 

[LrgmouthShad]

4 minutes ago, 813basstard said:

I’ve found through extensive research that the closer I get a hook near a bass’s mouth, the hook up ratio increases. 
 

I realize this may not help you but it’s what the data has shown. 

Nope I think this is perfect. Excellent empirical data thank you ?

[Aaron_H]

I do find that the tipped in points of EWG trebles have a better landing ratio than round bend, but round bends will hookup easier if they're just slapping the bait so there's a little trade off. I find a lipless bite is generally aggressive enough that I can stick with EWGs regardless. The two replacement trebles that I use are the Gamakatsu EWGs and the Owner 3x ST-56 (my preference between the two). But EWGs are not *necessary*, I've landed large bass on round bends while lipless fishing, though as I said I do believe they are harder for a bass to throw in my experience.

 

Yes, many lipless baits come with split rings that are weaker than they should be. I've had a few split rings on Rapala baits bend out on bigger fish, one of which was on a 7lb 2oz tilapia which I landed but the split ring looked like a pretzel afterward. I use either Owner Hyper Wire rings or the Gamakatsu Superline (both size 3), with an Owner oval split ring (size 4) for the line tie.

 

This is my preference for the different lipless cranks I throw:

 

Strike King Red-Eyed Shad: I swap hooks to EWG, stock rings are fine. You can fish the stock round bends also, they're fine quality.

 

Rapala Rattlin' Rapala: Hooks and split rings all get swapped.

 

Berkley Warpig: Hooks and split rings swapped.

 

Booyah One Knocker: Line tie swapped for oval, but stock hooks and rings are solid.

 

Thunderhawk Sergeant: Split rings swapped, hooks are good.

 

Bill Lewis Rat-L-Trap: Swapped for oval line tie, otherwise stock. The Mustad Triple Grips are fine hooks.

 

Cotton Cordell Super Spot: Hooks and split rings swapped.

[Bluebasser86]

I swap mine to EWG's. Traps are notoriously easy for fish to throw. The EWG's seem to help that situation. 

[GetFishorDieTryin]

IMO wide gaps hold better then round bends if the fish actually eats the bait.  I think round bends do better then EWGs when the fish are slapping at the bait. 

For lipless I like to go with an EWG on the front hook and a round bend on the back.  Its worked pretty well for me.

[swhit140]

I mainly replace hooks on certain baits that I know don't have higher quality hooks.

[A-Jay]

 

  Treble hooks – I change them.  All my topwater, jerk, rattle, square & crankbaits, even blade baits &  even spybaits all get aftermarket trebles.  And topwater baits that have feathers, also get changed out, I just tie up my own.  (So easy, even an A-Jay can do it)

Mustad KVD 1x Strong 2x Short Triple Grip Treble Hook, Gamakatsu EWG Treble Short Shank Magic Eye and Owner Short Shank Treble Hook ST-35 all adorn my baits.  Especially like that Owner ST-35 (Not for a tail hook though) as it features 150-degree Premium Point Position design, which splits two hook points out 150-degrees versus the typical 120-degrees between all three points. This allows the hook points to be positioned slightly farther out from your bait and help increase your hook up percentage. Opening the gap to 150-degrees also minimizes damage to your bait from the hook points, while keeping the hook points sharper over time as well.

    Note: Owner Stinger ST-35 Short Shank Treble Hooks are designed to be used with baits that have the hook hanger in line with the length of the bait.  These will not hang correctly on lures that feature any hook hanger that is perpendicular to the length of the lure – some of the offerings from Megabass for instance.  Had to include that because as great as these trebles are – they do not work in the situation described.

Any & all questionable split rings are traded out for Owner Hyper wires. (including Line ties)

A-Jay

[Columbia Craw]

When A-Jay speaks, the mountains tremble.

[MN Fisher]

9 minutes ago, Columbia Craw said:

When A-Jay speaks, the mountains tremble.

I thought it was the brown bass that shivered in fear?

[A-Jay]

1 minute ago, MN Fisher said:

I thought it was the brown bass that shivered in fear?

It's 5 degrees here today.

I'm shivering.

A-Jay

[Big Hands]

7 hours ago, A-Jay said:

Treble hooks – I change them.  All my topwater, jerk, rattle, square & crankbaits, even blade baits &  even spybaits all get aftermarket trebles. 

I imagine there are fine details to the selection of replacement treble hooks for all of these baits, but jerkbaits are the most perplexing to me, especially those known for being balanced in a particular way.

 

The Vision 110 comes to mind for me because I had an interesting experience replacing the trebles on one that had become inadvertently attached to a tackle bag so badly that I was either going to have to severely damage the bag or sacrifice the hooks. The decision to sacrifice the hooks began my odyssey of getting the bait to be pretty neutral at rest in the water similar to the way it had been when it was new. . . . and I got to watch an 8.5 pounder charge it from several feet away and annihilate it.

 

The first hooks and split rings I used were ST-36 or ST-35 (can't remember for sure) and some split ring that I don't remember the origin of either. What I do remember is that the bait would steadily sink instead of lingering at roughly the same spot. I suppose that there might be times when a sinking bait might be the ticket, but I just wanted my lucky Vision 110 to be what it was.

 

I eventually found some original Megabass trebles with the outward barbs just like the originals. But that wasn't the end of the story. The bait still wasn't very neutral, and it turned out to be the split rings. I ended up getting some different sizes and strength split rings and really had to play around with it in my garage wash basin to get it to sit pretty neutral (not really sinking) and slightly nose down like it used to when new. the split rings are all different, but the trebles are original now. I never could find out what split rings Megabass uses so I had to mix and match on my own.

 

So, you do seem to genuinely detailed deliberate in this regard, and I am curious why you do what you do to your jerkbaits and what concerns you have when replacing hooks on them?

[A-Jay]

35 minutes ago, Big Hands said:

So, you do seem to genuinely detailed deliberate in this regard, and I am curious why you do what you do to your jerkbaits and what concerns you have when replacing hooks on them?

I'll be very happy to share my methods and perhaps more importantly my philosophy

regarding the changing of hooks & hardware on jerkbaits.

However, I think it's only fair to warn you that my ideas on the subject do vary quite a bit from 'common thinking'.

First here's the jerkbait hook changing deal . . . 

I make NO ATTEMPT to ensure that the after I'm done changing hooks that the bait suspends perfectly level, or even suspends at all.  I add weight to most baits to get them away from the boat more and to ensure they run DEEP; especially on silent baits that cast like a potato chip to start.

Once I start working the bait, how it sits on the pause - in my mind does not matter.

Nose up, Nose Down, whatever. Because when a bait fish if fleeing for it's life, it does all kinds of crazy stuff trying to get away.  Bass Don't care - they'll eat it if they can catch it. 

That level/neutral suspending stuff IMO is more of marketing deal, and not something the bass have ever bought into, just us basshead. Does it get bites, of course, but IMO it's more about where the bait is & when, than whether it's sitting perfectly still or perfectly level.  Some of my best baits, sink like a rock. 

So in the end, I want the bait to have quality hardware on it, cast well, especially in the early & late season winds that are often blasting me in the face, and stay deeper or closer to the bottom, where the bass I'm looking for are usually at. 

This approach works for me.

YMMV.

A-Jay

[Big Hands]

33 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

I'll be very happy to share my methods and perhaps more importantly my philosophy

regarding the changing of hooks & hardware on jerkbaits.

Thanks, I appreciate the detailed, thoughtful response. We all have our own ways and theories, and it's far more likely that there are several paths up the same mountain that will all get us there.

 

And those are two gorgeous smallies right there. 

[ChrisD46]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:24 PM, Aaron_H said:

I do find that the tipped in points of EWG trebles have a better landing ratio than round bend, but round bends will hookup easier if they're just slapping the bait so there's a little trade off. I find a lipless bite is generally aggressive enough that I can stick with EWGs regardless. The two replacement trebles that I use are the Gamakatsu EWGs and the Owner 3x ST-56 (my preference between the two). But EWGs are not *necessary*, I've landed large bass on round bends while lipless fishing, though as I said I do believe they are harder for a bass to throw in my experience.

 

Yes, many lipless baits come with split rings that are weaker than they should be. I've had a few split rings on Rapala baits bend out on bigger fish, one of which was on a 7lb 2oz tilapia which I landed but the split ring looked like a pretzel afterward. I use either Owner Hyper Wire rings or the Gamakatsu Superline (both size 3), with an Owner oval split ring (size 4) for the line tie.

 

This is my preference for the different lipless cranks I throw:

 

Strike King Red-Eyed Shad: I swap hooks to EWG, stock rings are fine. You can fish the stock round bends also, they're fine quality.

 

Rapala Rattlin' Rapala: Hooks and split rings all get swapped.

 

Berkley Warpig: Hooks and split rings swapped.

 

Booyah One Knocker: Line tie swapped for oval, but stock hooks and rings are solid.

 

Thunderhawk Sergeant: Split rings swapped, hooks are good.

 

Bill Lewis Rat-L-Trap: Swapped for oval line tie, otherwise stock. The Mustad Triple Grips are fine hooks.

 

Cotton Cordell Super Spot: Hooks and split rings swapped.

*Round Bend vs. EWG Treble hooks depend on whether bass are just "swiping at" a crank bait or eating a crank bait aggressively taking it whole . **This can vary throughout the year, so it is common for Bass Pros to switch back and forth between round bend and EWG treble hooks .