1/8-1 1/2 oz?

[jimmyjoe]

   I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but there's something I don't quite get. St. Croix has several rods rated 3/8-1 1/2 (one and a half) ounces. I used one; the Dock Sniper. It didn't really like 3/8 ounce.

   Cashion has some rods rated 1/4-1 1/2 ounces. And Ark has the Randall Tharp Honey Badger Glass series that are rated 1/8-1 1/2 ounces. Yep, I double-checked, and that's correct. One-eighth of an ounce to one-and-one-half ounces.

   My experience with rods is that they either load with a heavier weight but don't load with too light a weight, or they load with a light weight but overload with too heavy a weight. I've never seen a rod that let you eat your cake and have it, too.

 

   Did someone come up with some magic formula? How can these rods load at the light end (and provide accuracy) and still have authority to push the heavy end?

   Or is it all just advertising b.s.?

 

   As always, your insights are welcome.       jj

 

  

[Smalls]

What they do is write each weight on a little piece of paper. They stick each piece of paper on a dartboard and throw 2 darts. Whatever they hit, they sticker on the rod.

[jimmyjoe]

8 minutes ago, Smalls said:

What they do is write each weight on a little piece of paper. They stick each piece of paper on a dartboard and throw 2 darts. Whatever they hit, they sticker on the rod.

 

   Sometimes I wonder whether you haven't hit the nail on the head.  ?           jj

[jcjunior]

I never pay attention to a rods “rating”. It’s usually inaccurate 

[jimmyjoe]

1 minute ago, jcjunior said:

I never pay attention to a rods “rating”. It’s usually inaccurate 

 

   I'll grant you that.

   The rating is supposed to give a buyer an idea of the sweet spot for the rod, where it is and how wide or narrow it is. After all, you can't take the rod fishing inside the store.

   But this sort of rating is downright ridiculous!  And from what I can see, it's becoming more common.        jj

[new2BC4bass]

I don't know how many Ark models carry that lure designation, but the B-Hittay is one.  I've only made it out once with mine, and I for sure didn't try 1/8 oz.  Why?  One reason is because I am only comfortable down to 3/16 oz. with a baitcast reel.  A second reason is because I prefer to stay in the middle of a rod's rating.

 

I did try 3/8 oz. on a 7'6" MHF Villain rated 3/8-1-1/4 oz.  3/8 oz. stank on the rod.  1/2 oz. is the bare minimum I'd use on it.  Tried a 1-1/2 oz. lure (DSG didn't have a 1-1/4 oz. jig) and had to lob that weight.

 

Yeah, I'd have to agree that some rod ratings happened during a dream.

 

[Boomstick]

A lot of rods rated up to 1.5oz need at least 1/2oz or even more to cast well. Some rods do well. Rods like the Dobyns 735C can handle up to 1.5oz but can cast 1/4oz with a little bit of a struggle but will cast 3/8oz quite well. I had a 7'1" Daiwa Tatula H/F and that wasn't much worse. Unfortunately the replacement arrived in pieces and I opted not to order another one as I got a MH-H so I didn't have that much of a need for it.

19 minutes ago, jcjunior said:

I never pay attention to a rods “rating”. It’s usually inaccurate 

Yup. I usually assume I can cast at the lower end but with difficulty. The higher end is more often manageable than the lower end, but even then sometimes it's not quite ideal either.

[jimmyjoe]

   Well, I can't say I'm surprised. There's always some little idea in the back of my head that maybe .... just maybe ..... they found some new space-age adhesive, or new pattern or technique, that does things they didn't do before.

 

   Nope.

 

  I've been selling off rods and reels these last two years, trying to get down to as few rigs as possible and still do what I want, and do it comfortably. (The "comfortable" part has to do with arthritis.) I think I've found my perfect Heavy rig, but I wanted to find a Medium Heavy lieutenant for it, kinda as a do-all backup.

 

   Oh, well .... the search goes on. Thanks, all of you.  ?        jj

[Eric 26]

I own a Lews med hvy rod rated 1/2-1-3/8, it’s a true moderate action so I feel it can handle the low end but as far as anything 1oz and upward not for me to try out.

[bulldog1935]

If you come from fly rods, you might understand this a little better. 

 

Fly rod tapers are called progressive or parabolic.  A para taper loads more of the total rod length as casting weight increases.  As weight increases on a progressive taper, a loaded band of the rod length progressively moves down the rod.  In actuality, all rod tapers are a blend of both ideas, so it's more accurate to call them "more progressive" or "more para" 

 

Rod tapers with a narrow lure weight rating are more para.  Rod tapers with a wide lure weight rating are more progressive. 

My Japanese shore light game rods are progressive tapers, both spinning and BFS. 

The 8'2" bait is rated 2-20 g, which is 1/16 to 3/4 oz.  They offer these rods to 10' with a wider lure range than the 1/8 to 1-1/2 oz. 

 

 

The familiar, traditional short UL rod in the US is the type para rod - typically, the tip is faster, and most of the rod flex is in the butt and handle. 

Doesn't mean all para tapers are UL and slow - they can be Very Fast, and in fly rod examples, the most powerful and unforgiving para taper rods are Sage RPLX and TCR.  Every rod John Harrington (Harnell) made from bass to surf and offshore was para taper. 

 

The extreme progressive rods in bait and spinning tackle are often called "All Range", and they don't have to be tippy, either, the type example is my Valleyhill all-range BFS bass rod. 

[jimmyjoe]

10 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

 

Fly rod tapers are called progressive or parabolic.  A parabolic taper loads more of the total rod length as casting weight increases.  As weight increases on a progressive taper, a loaded band of the rod length progressively moves down the rod.  In actuality, all rod tapers are a blend of both ideas, so it's more accurate to call them "more progressive" or "more para" 

 

   True, but one thing is different between fly rods and casting rods. The weight of a lure on a casting rod varies quite a bit, and the efficiency has to vary with it. In flycasting, the weight is actually in the fly line, and it's always roughly the same. So the efficiency of a fly rod can be assumed to be "x", and not vary much. Makes design a lot easier than the design of rods that cast both light and heavy lures with nylon or braided line.  ?    jj

[bulldog1935]

@jimmyjoe

Exactly untrue. 

3' of fly line is less than 1/10 the weight of the 30' fly line belly, because of the fly line front taper. 

A good progressive dry-fly taper Accurately casts the leader alone - the leader can be 14'

 

 

remember when I said "if you come from fly rods" - you clearly don't, dude. 

Weight is weight, whether it's 3' of fly line = 1/32 oz

or

30' of fly line = 3/4 oz. 

You're talking to the guy who can shoot a 30' 250-gr head on his RPLX7 to 140'

[jimmyjoe]

11 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

@jimmyjoe

Exactly untrue. 

3' of fly line is less than 1/10 the weight of the 30' fly line belly, because of the fly line front taper. 

A good progressive fly rod Accurately casts the leader alone.

 

 

remember when I said "if you come from fly rods" - you clearly don't, dude. 

Weight is weight, whether it's 3' of fly line = 1/32 oz

or

30' of fly line = 3/4 oz. 

You're talking to the guy who can shoot a 30' 250-gr head on his RPLX7 to 140'

 

I see what you mean ..... dude.

I never thought of it like that ..... dude.

But now that I do, I can see that you're clearly right and I'm clearly wrong ..... dude.

I apologize ....... dude.

HAVE A NICE DAY ...... DUDE. ?

[bulldog1935]

must be winter - my fishing is just warming up. 

Anyway, glad you understand the mechanics of rod taper a bit better. 

Thanks for welcoming my insight. 

 

If you want to see the real joke, read how "feely" fly fishers describe para-taper rods. 

[A-Jay]

9 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

   I know I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, but there's something I don't quite get. St. Croix has several rods rated 3/8-1 1/2 (one and a half) ounces. I used one; the Dock Sniper. It didn't really like 3/8 ounce.

   Cashion has some rods rated 1/4-1 1/2 ounces. And Ark has the Randall Tharp Honey Badger Glass series that are rated 1/8-1 1/2 ounces. Yep, I double-checked, and that's correct. One-eighth of an ounce to one-and-one-half ounces.

   My experience with rods is that they either load with a heavier weight but don't load with too light a weight, or they load with a light weight but overload with too heavy a weight. I've never seen a rod that let you eat your cake and have it, too.

 

   Did someone come up with some magic formula? How can these rods load at the light end (and provide accuracy) and still have authority to push the heavy end?

   Or is it all just advertising b.s.?

 

   As always, your insights are welcome.       jj

 

  

 

As all rods have a 'line & lure weight rating',

it's mostly a recommendation rather than a hard & fast rule.

Offers a buyer an 'idea' of where the rod might perform at it's best.

However, when it comes to 'lure weight ratings', some companies get pretty liberal with what they list.

So while the rating range might be listed as 1/4 to 1 ounce, the top & bottom end of that is usually a bit of a stretch.

So the Sweet spot for a particular blank might be somewhere in the middle.

In this example like 3/8 to 5/8 oz would be where I'd guess it to be.

Clearly not all lures weigh exactly what they are listed as and when a trailer is added that changes it some too. 

Line type & size effects all of this as well. 

 

Pretty sure you're on top of this but for those who might not be:

I highly recommend that you find a line of rods you like and stick with it.

In the long run you'll be better off knowing what to expect from a product,

especially if your making purchases on line.

If you can be hands on before you buy, bring the reel you'll be using to the vendor,

(or get one out of the display case) and mount it on a few sticks in the store.

Usually helps.

Fish Hard

A-Jay

[LrgmouthShad]

8 hours ago, Eric 26 said:

I own a Lews med hvy rod rated 1/2-1-3/8, it’s a true moderate action so I feel it can handle the low end but as far as anything 1oz and upward not for me to try out.

Kinda same experience with my spinnerbait rod rated 3/8 to 1oz, moderate fast. It casts 3/8 and 1/2 phenomenally well but 3/4 loads it pretty good and with a 1 oz I'm using a lob cast. Wouldn't trade the rod for anything though

[Hulkster]

the muskie rods over in the muskie world are even worse. some are rated for 3/4 oz up to 12 oz I don't understand

[new2BC4bass]

Here's another example.  iRod has at least two rods in the Genesis line that are MHF and rated 3/16-3/8 oz.  To me this rating is closer to a ML.  I emailed them and was assured my rod was in fact MH and capable of handling the normal range for MH rods.  I can only assume iRod rated the rod for jig weights.  We all know a jig is rated for the lead and doesn't include hook, skirts, added plastics, etc.  I've yet to test its limits.

 

I personally try not to fish a rod at either of its limits (with the exception of the above iRod).  That is why I have Light, ML, M, MH, MH+ and Heavy rods.  (No need for an XH at this time.  ) I don't use a 1/4 oz. lure on a MH rod even though 1/4 oz. may be its lower limit.  I'd use a rod like my 6'10" MF Smallmouth that is rated 1/8-5/8 oz.

[MickD]

I too doubt that a rod can cast efficiently from 1/8 to 1 1/2 oz.  However, action can affect the effiecient/effective lure weight range of a rod.  X-Fast actions, because of the power of the butt section can cast heavy lures pretty well (you might say that the soft tip just "gets out of the way") while the softer tip inherent in them can handle lighter lures pretty well.   

 

X-Fast action rods have a wider efficient/effective lure weight range than slower actions.   Many of the Anglers Resource Point Blank blanks have Extra-Fast actions and they will cast a wider than "normal" range well, in my opinion.

[bulldog1935]

The rods I showed above, I don't even think about heavy weights on my shore light game rods, because I'll switch to ML or MM, and I use them primarily for light end capability. 

 

The one rod I own that excels at each end of its lure weight rating is the Valleyhill all-range BFS. 

It's really remarkable to get all this from a 6'7" rod, especially throwing 1/16 oz to 100'

And it does that without being tippy on the heavy end. 

[jimmyjoe]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

I too doubt that a rod can cast efficiently from 1/8 to 1 1/2 oz.  However, action can affect the effiecient/effective lure weight range of a rod.  X-Fast actions, because of the power of the butt section can cast heavy lures pretty well (you might say that the soft tip just "gets out of the way") while the softer tip inherent in them can handle lighter lures pretty well.   

 

X-Fast action rods have a wider efficient/effective lure weight range than slower actions.   Many of the Anglers Resource Point Blank blanks have Extra-Fast actions and they will cast a wider than "normal" range well, in my opinion.

 

   I think I'm gonna get an education today on all the stupid ideas that have been rollin' around in my head.  ?  Here are some things I've thought or been told. They ALL assume that "all other things are equal", which we all know can't be 100% true.

 

   1) Fast and Extra-fast actions cast farther, length being the same.

   2) Extra-fast actions break easier under load, like fishing for bass and hooking a musky, or setting the hook on a snag. (I've never done that! ? ?)

   3) Moderate and Slow actions don't break as easy under load.

   4) Moderate actions favor the lower end of their weight range.

   5) Fiberglass favors the lower end of its weight range.

   6) Fast actions favor the upper end of their weight range.

   7) Graphite favors the upper end of its weight range.

   7+1) Moderate actions are more accurate with light lures.

   9) Faster actions can be more accurate at distance than moderate actions, but need heavier lures to do so. (rod loading.)

 

   Therefore the best combination for an all-around rod (or do-it-all rod) is a moderate or moderate-fast action for strength and reliability under load, with fiberglass/graphite composite or straight fiberglass for the ability to cast a wide range of lure weights accurately.

 

   Okay..... I'm not gonna stand pat on 15. Hit me.  ?      jj

 

  

[WRB]

Your questioning the lure weigh rating of a glass crank bait rod 1/8-1 1/2 Lures is within the realm of reason. For example Loomis PR845C can perform that task using light weight crank baits and heavier structure spoons, use it years for that.

Tom

PS, fly rods cast line the fly goes along for the ride.

[jimmyjoe]

2 minutes ago, WRB said:

Your questioning the lure weigh rating of a glass crank bait rod 1/8-1 1/2 Lures is within the realm of reason. For example Loomis PR845C can perform that task using light weight crank baits and heavier structure spoons, use it years for that.

Tom

 

   I was thinking of spending money for a new rod on Black Friday, Tom, but not quite that much! ? ? ?             jj

[new2BC4bass]

I was under the impression that Moderate actions cast further.  I will say my older Powell Endurance 7'2" MH-EF gets very good distance.  I just had to do a little research.    This is from an article by a saltwater guy.

 

"For casting accuracy, fast and extra-fast action rods provide more speed and power to pitch a lure to a target, thwarting any wind-related deviation. However, their stiffness reduces casting distance, compared to medium and slow actions, unless heavy lures or baits are used..."

 

"However, the action ­— determined by how far down the blank (starting at the tip) the bend of the rod extends — is the primary contributor to a rod’s performance. In essence, rods with fast to extra-fast action are best suited for casting accuracy and solid hook-sets with large baits and lures intended for bigger fish. A medium to slow action is prime for extended casting distance, pitching live baits, and working smaller lures and baits."

 

"Medium to slow actions often promote better ­hook-sets, especially with lighter and smaller lures. With fast and extra-fast rods, anglers sometimes pull the lure away from a fish during the strike because of the rod’s stiffness. By comparison, that little bit of extra time, albeit brief, that it takes to come tight with a medium- to slow-action rod is often enough for a fish to fully engulf a lure, which in turn results in solid hookups."

[T-Billy]

8 hours ago, A-Jay said:

Pretty sure you're on top of this but for those who might not be:

I highly recommend that you find a line of rods you like and stick with it.

In the long run you'll be better off knowing what to expect from a product,

especially if your making purchases on line.

If you can be hands on before you buy, bring the reel you'll be using to the vendor,

(or get one out of the display case) and mount it on a few sticks in the store.

Usually helps.

Fish Hard

A-Jay

OUTSTANDING ADVICE!!! Once you've fished a couple from the same manufacturer/series you have a much better idea what to expect from the rest of the lineup based on rating and can be more comfortable buying them online. 

As to the original question, I haven't fished the Tharp composite rods mentioned, but I have handled the B-Hittay in my local shop. Taper is very similar to my Veritas 7'6" MH Winch which is awesome for squarebills, chatterbaits and topwaters with braid, but I'm not a big fan of the Abu reel seat. 1/8 is a stretch, as is 1 1/2, but 1/4 fishes ok, and the sweet spot is really in the 3/8 to 3/4 range. A-Jay's guesstimate is spot on.

I've gone all in on the Tharp series this year. I think they're outstanding for their price point, and they've sidelined my Abu Veritas and Veracity's and relegated my Dobyns Kadens and Sierra to moving bait duty. I currently have the Guntersville, King Cobra, Moneymaker, One Eyed Jack, Meterman, and Meterman Special, and I ordered a pair of B-Hittay's and another Moneymaker from TW today. I managed to fend off the monkey until the sale started. ?