Non-Navigable Waterway Access

[ironbjorn]

6 minutes ago, CrashVector said:

Which is why I always have at LEAST a Ruger 22 pistol in my kayak at all times.

 

The fact that some people think it's okay to KILL someone for floating on the water in a boat *IS* insane.

 

 

Right. The fact that there is a culture in the US that believes this is acceptable, that there are people who think this is acceptable, is sickening. That people can't think past "ur on my land, boy" (as if it's 1874 or something and they don't live in a civilized society) to realize that they're literally taking a life and ruining their own (prison) for something so petty is mentally ill.

[CrashVector]

4 minutes ago, ironbjorn said:

Right. The fact that there is a culture in the US that believes this is acceptable, that there are people who think this is acceptable, is sickening. That people can't think past "ur on my land, boy" (as if it's 1874 or something and they don't live in a civilized society) to realize that they're literally taking a life and ruining their own (prison) for something so petty is mentally ill.

Well, it's widely known that you cannot use lethal force to defend property....or should be.

[Darth-Baiter]

In CA it’s crystal clear the law. 
 

d**n. I’d freak if someone threaten to shoot me. 

[Tennessee Boy]

I can think of countless cases of disputes that made national news where one guy with a gun end’s up in jail and another guy ends up dead.   In almost every case,  either person could have prevented it from happening by simply not escalating the confrontation to the next level.   It’s extremely unlikely that someone is going to just shoot you for being on their land.  They will say something.  Then you have the option to say your sorry and leave or you can say something back.  It always starts with words that turns into an argument,  that turns into anger,  that turns into threats,  that ends in violence.  There’s no shortage of places to fish.  Just apologize and find another place.  When you get home you can complain about it on this forum.  I’ve never found a fishing  spot worth dying for.

[TnRiver46]

14 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

That's ridiculous

 

How can somebody own something that is moving. A piece of land is stationary so that makes sense..water moves so either everybody or nobody owns that.

There is a stretch of the Holston river up towards Kingsport Tennessee where they have an ammunition plant on the water. If you float through there or drive up in a jet boat you will be met with machine gun and unhappy employee. Apparently they own several hundred yards of the river, you have to take out and walk/drive around

17 minutes ago, Darth-Baiter said:

In CA it’s crystal clear the law. 
 

d**n. I’d freak if someone threaten to shoot me. 

It’s best to remain calm in such scenarios haha

1 hour ago, ironbjorn said:

So much talk about getting shot by some idiot for the crime of trying to float down a river and/or fish, as if this is normal. No, this is psychotic, and America is sick.

I don’t think it happens much if at all, mostly just messed up humans wanting to feel powerful. Threaten to

shoot happens frequently. Actual shooting is usually reserved for domestic disputes as opposed to property disputes 

 

you should read about what happened in England before we all came to America! Haha we are slowly improving as humans. Back then you were disemboweled with a hot metal rod if they didn’t like your politics.  Now you just get mean words on Facebook 

[king fisher]

Years ago, I spent most of a winter living at an aroe tow Hang glider park near Orlando Florida.  A young women from Norway, spent a month their gliding.  One day she went cross country and landed in a pasture.  A  women came out on an ATV. and pointed a shot gun at her.  She cussed at her and told her to get off her land immediately.  She then tied a rope to her glider and drug it off.  Being from Norway she already thought the US was the wild west, and was sure the lady was going to shoot her.   A friend flew one of the ultralight tugs around until he found the property and the glider.

       The pilot took the lady to court.  The property owner was sure she was going to win, because the pilot was trespassing.  The judge felt different.  The law basically said that because the pilot had not intentionally trespassed, but only needed to make a non powered emergency landing that the owner could not press charges for trespassing.  The owner could ask the pilot to leave, and not allow her to drive on to the property to get her glider, but could not keep her from carrying the glider off on foot.  She could not threaten her with a gun, and definitely could not keep her hang glider, or damage it.  The land owner could require payment for damages to her property but would have to prove damages.

     The land owner had to pay for the glider, and was also found guilty of assault .  The pilot went back to Norway a month early convinced Americans were crazy.  I wasn't happy because I was single, and she was the only female pilot at the park.  If you think that bass fishing is mostly a male sport it is full of women compared to hang gliding.

       I was lucky and never had a bad experience on cross countries.  Most of the time a farmer will see you land, come and offer assistance, give you a meal, and let you spend the night.  That is the way it used to be with hunting and fishing.  A polite conversation, a point in the right direction, followed by wishing you luck catching the big one.  It is sad those times may be gone for good.  I know it is a to way street, many land owners have had property damaged and trash left, from fisherman and are tired of the hassle.  Sportsman should do everything they can to help improve their image.  Maybe the future is bright.  I sure hope so. 

[DitchPanda]

6 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Air also moves but that doesn’t mean it should be okay to fly a drone 3 feet away from someone’s bedroom window.   How much airspace you own above your land is another legal area that’s being discussed a lot recently due to the popularity of drones.  Those laws are very similar to the water navigation issues being discussed here.

Flying a drone by a bedroom window is hardly the same as floating a creek hundreds of yards or maybe even miles away from somebody's house. At that point it's not about property..I don't think people should able to own air just like I don't think they should own water. But peeking in someone's window isn't about ownership its about invasion of privacy.

[moguy1973]

9 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

I can think of countless cases of disputes that made national news where one guy with a gun end’s up in jail and another guy ends up dead.   In almost every case,  either person could have prevented it from happening by simply not escalating the confrontation to the next level.   It’s extremely unlikely that someone is going to just shoot you for being on their land.  They will say something.  Then you have the option to say your sorry and leave or you can say something back.  It always starts with words that turns into an argument,  that turns into anger,  that turns into threats,  that ends in violence.  There’s no shortage of places to fish.  Just apologize and find another place.  When you get home you can complain about it on this forum.  I’ve never found a fishing  spot worth dying for.

This happened on the same river a couple years ago as the court case I posted above.  Guy confronted a bunch of drunk floaters he said were on his property, he produced a gun and shot one of them in the head.  He was convicted of 2nd degree murder.

[Tennessee Boy]

As you go up stream, rivers become creeks.  Creeks become branches.  Branches become ditches.  I hope we can all agree that a little water in a ditch does not make it public property.   Where a stream stops being navigable and becomes private property is a judgment.  Saying your okay as long as you don’t touch the bottom is a joke.  I can’t think of any stream around here that is not on the list of navigable streams that you could navigate in a kayak without touching the bottom.  Here is one example.  The bridge in the photo is where the Corps of Engineers says this creek becomes a navigable stream.  I’ve fished this creek.  There is no way you could go a quarter mile  in a kayak without running into shallow water or a lay down.  I can’t speak for other parts of the country but around here the definition of navigable water clearly favors the boater over the landowner.  I think the laws are fair.  That doesn’t solve the problem of landowners and boaters that do not know or follow the law.

 

[AJ Hauser]

Thank you fellas for all the feedback... it appears we have a bit of a mess on our hands, and the general consensus is that no fishing spot is worth lead-poisoning. 

 

It also seems that my best bet is to go and do a bit of door knocking to just ask for permission to pass through... and I'll probably offer to pick up trash while I do so. 

 

We shall see... hopefully I don't have nightmares about all the fish I'm missin' if they tell me to get lost!

[Chris Catignani]

20 minutes ago, AJ Hauser said:

...

It also seems that my best bet is to go and do a bit of door knocking to just ask for permission to pass through... and I'll probably offer to pick up trash while I do so. 

...

Its been my experience that the land owners have some real concerns. There are those that will climb and break a fence, leave a gate open, damage an out building, steal equipment. So...yeah I think a little recon at the put in and take out will do you volumes.

[newbiedmv]

I have this same concern with ALL VA lakes. I've been told the property owners own the water, the development owns the water, no one owns the water.

As a result I have not touched any VA lake at all. Supposedly a local lake put a jetty through with pipes to prevent boaters from coming in.(Lake Anna). Many private lakes in MD with security guards also.

I've had to escort ahole hunters off my land a few times at gun point. They were charged and one went to jail.

I avoid them mostly and wait with the cops or DNR when they come out now.

I don't need that crap.

[Catt]

There was a time back in my prime but in today's  world I'll walk away.

[Alex from GA]

In GA if you own both sides of the river/creek the bottom is private property.  I've been yelled @ twice for kayaking through a property.  One time I was with a DNR group that was tagging fish.

[AJ Hauser]

18 minutes ago, Alex from GA said:

In GA if you own both sides of the river/creek the bottom is private property.  I've been yelled @ twice for kayaking through a property.  One time I was with a DNR group that was tagging fish.

 

How deep was the water? I don't think it matters much but just curious. The creek I was in I was floating on like 6 inches of water in spots and had to walk the riffles.

 

[gim]

This is an interesting topic. I have floated a mid sized river for over 15 years here in central MN from one canoe access to another without an issue. It was too shallow to do it this season because of a historic drought, but even in normal flow there are some spots where my Jon boat might scrap bottom so I have to get out and walk briefly. To my knowledge, the waterways here are all public and no one owns the river/creek or the land under it. As long as I stay off the shore I am not trespassing.

 

I’ve run into a few encounters while I’ve been hunting but never a problem for fishing. Every time I encountered someone on the discussion of hunting and trespassing, I apologized and agreed to leave even if I knew the other guy was wrong. Our hunting regs specifically state that you can enter private property without permission to retrieve wounded game.

[AJ Hauser]

11 hours ago, gimruis said:

As long as I stay off the shore I am not trespassing.

 

This was what I thought too, but apparently the land underneath the water - the creek bed - is owned. I read that typically it is owned to the middle of the creek... although the first guy I ran into said that his land extended across the whole creek, and the guy further down owned the parcels on both sides of the creek so he owned the whole way across for sure.

 

I think if I were a land owner in a similar situation I would put a sign up that said "Fishermen call 555-555-5555 before proceeding" instead of the standard NO TRESPASSING signs if I wanted people to let me know they were coming through. 

 

The first guy I ran into, when he came down and yelled and said what he said, started to complain about other people that had started fires this year during low water (we had super low water too this year) and people that had yelled and argued with him, saying that they didn't even have the common decency to come knock on his door and ask for permission. 

 

I get that, but at the front of his driveway when I went to meet him the following day there were "Dead End" and "No Trespassing" signs at the front of the drive... so... I mean if I wasn't on a mission I would have turned around just from seeing that. 

 

He also asked me what I was doing with the smallmouth I was catching, because people fill stringers up with little smallmouth and take 'em. What the heck. Between that and the fires and the garbage... I mean I get it. It's a shame, but I get it. 

 

*sigh* 

[gim]

1 hour ago, AJ Hauser said:

He also asked me what I was doing with the smallmouth I was catching, because people fill stringers up with little smallmouth and take 'em. What the heck. Between that and the fires and the garbage... I mean I get it. It's a shame, but I get it. 

Unfortunately, this guy has probably had some unpleasant experiences on his land from trespassers.  People leaving crap behind, starting fires, etc.  All it takes is one person to ruin it for everyone else and the landowner has a poor experience which often leads to rejecting everyone in the future.  This is why I'm very careful when I'm hunting on private land.  Leaving the property as you found it and thanking the landowner will often result in them granting permission again in the future.  A package of venison, pheasant, or walleye helps too.

 

As for filling stringers of smallmouth...wouldn't take very long in a small body of water like that to decimate the local population of brown bass so I can see the point he's trying to make with that too, even if its legal to harvest them.

[AJ Hauser]

30 minutes ago, gimruis said:

A package of venison, pheasant, or walleye helps too.

 

Funny you should mention that... I'm thinking when I go talk to this next guy I take him some of my homemade beef jerky... with inflation growing at the rate it has been by next spring jerky is going to be worth more than a block of gold!! 

 

 

[TnRiver46]

54 minutes ago, AJ Hauser said:

 

Funny you should mention that... I'm thinking when I go talk to this next guy I take him some of my homemade beef jerky... with inflation growing at the rate it has been by next spring jerky is going to be worth more than a block of gold!! 

 

 

[Zcoker]

Man, all this flack about who owns the creek....try that on the friggin ocean! Here in Florida they tried (and still are trying) to implement such a law where the condos and home owners can put up fences and no trespassing signs blocking off ALL public access for large costal areas. There's ongoing political shuffle as to the fate of this law but it may someday become reality. There's also this funny clause about "high tide line" where below it is legal and above it is not legal. Crazy bizarre things gong on out there lol Pretty soon everything will  be owned and off limits!

[Fishingmickey]

We've got sections of the Guadalupe river here in Texas that used to be accessible by pay to launch places. They have been sold and now there is no access at all.

Fishingmickey

[king fisher]

Every state has different laws.  In Alaska all the water belongs to the State, meaning the citizens of the state.  Even the Federal Gov. can't keep you off of the water.  On the Island of Kodiak the Feds.  tried to make it illegal to land a plane in one of the Federal Wild life Refuges on the Island. They were successful in banning wheel planes from landing on land, but could not keep float planes from landing on the water and dropping people off on the shore to fish.  After a few years other pilots figured out they couldn't keep them from landing wheels on the beach below high tide and hunting deer.  A native tribe on Kodiak owned some land on a river where a lodge walked guests to catch salmon.  The lodge paid the Natives a fee every year to walk a few hundred yards across their land to access the wildlife refuge land to fish.  They kept raising the price of the fee every year.  When the cost became to great, the lodge owner went to the state and asked if he could buy an air boat to run the shallow stretch of river the natives owned.  The state said go ahead, and they would be glad to help out if the natives took it to court.  The Feds. said they were not going to allow the air boat in the wildlife refuge, and the state again said go ahead the water belongs to the state.  He now has ran the airboat for 15 years, driving the boat through the native section into the wild life refuge with out any problem.  Alaska is the extreme on one side of the issue.  Other states, the land owner, has way more rights.  I imagine most states are somewhere in the middle.  Unfortunately, some states have a lot of gray area in the law, and finding out if you are wrong or right, might mean an expensive trip to court, where you might loose.  Making friends with the land owner may be a better way to catch some fish.

[AJ Hauser]

Thanks again everyone - this has been very helpful. Much appreciated!