birdsnests, intelligent thumbs or brakes? which is better?

[fishhugger]

i'm a new baitcaster.  i just got a medium power 7' glass rod. my first rod is graphite, MH 7'. i would guess i was naive, in that i immediately went fishing with my new rod, but current reel w 10# mono, etc.  i was getting quite a few birdsnests --- much more than typical for me. finally, i thought - maybe it's the rod. i'm really not used to it?  

 

after a couple hours, the birdsnesting stopped. i noticed that sometimes it felt like my thumb could tell when the line was starting to loop off the spool, and my thumb seemed to be able to completely take care of the issue, because the loops that it felt like were forming were not there at the end of the cast.  my slx has all the breaks off, and i use 10# mono.

 

my question is, is the thumb the best way to deal with casting on the baitcaster, or the brakes? or some combination of the two.  do some people just use their thumbs, and not rely on the brakes?  i guess i assumed that using the brakes can decrease the cast, but if your thumb isn't super smart, that would also decrease the cast... i think my thumb is smarter than me, btw, but not sure.

[Finessegenics]

It's a combination of the two. A lot of people use no brakes and rely solely on the thumbs. For someone who is new to baitcasters, I'd say it's unwise to use no brakes.

 

 So, experienced-  not intelligent, thumbs will prevent backlashes. You might understand how to use a baitcaster but until you get your reps in, backlashes are going to come your way. Keep practicing and you'll get the hang of it eventually. I'd also take a look at Glenn's video on how to cast a baitcaster. I used it years ago when learning how to use a baitcaster, and it helped me immensely. I had already been using one for a few weeks but I decided to watch the video anyways, it was a game changer for me. There were so many things I was doing wrong without realizing it.

 

 

[MickD]

Do what works for you.  For me, my Tatula helps a lot.  But to directly answer your question, a combination of thumb and brakes is necessary, in my opinion.  As you get more expert the thumb will do more and the brakes less.  The problem with brakes is that they cost distance, so the more expert your thumb becomes, the longer your casts will be.

 

Line is important too.  I have found mono the best line for baitcasters, and I use about 14 pound test.  Not FC and not braid.

[MickD]

13 minutes ago, Finessegenics said:

I'd also take a look at Glenn's video

Excellent advice, excellent video.

[TOXIC]

It would really help to know what reel and size you are using.  

[fishhugger]

thanks for the video suggestion -- i've watched it. definitely helped. i'll  review it.

 

my reel is an slx with 10# mono. 

 

i'm assuming i was naive in just literally immediately casting with my new rod, and not expecting some birdsnesting or issues. after an hour or hour and a half, the birdsnesting stopped. i figured i had kind of gotten used to the rod. 

 

does that sound logical? i hadn't thought, beforehand, that i would have to adjust myself to the new rod. and i'll see what feels better - using my thumb and or the brakes... 

 

[MN Fisher]

As already stated - thumb and brakes. Even a good dual-braking reel (Lews Tournament MP, Pflueger Patriarch, etc) will still need thumbing.

[fishhugger]

2 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

As already stated - thumb and brakes. Even a good dual-braking reel (Lews Tournament MP, Pflueger Patriarch, etc) will still need thumbing.

ty... i'm not asking about removing the need for thumbing, i'm asking whether the thumb is mightier than the brakes - once you get more experience..... seems like most advocate a combination. currently, i'm just thumbing. it works fine --- until i just jumped in with a new rod.... 

[MN Fisher]

Just now, fishhugger said:

ty... i'm not asking about removing the need for thumbing, i'm asking whether the thumb is mightier than the brakes - once you get more experience..... seems like most advocate a combination. currently, i'm just thumbing. it works fine --- until i just jumped in with a new rod.... 

Even with correctly set brakes - especially on a dual-brake reel - it's the balance between them that really gets going for me. Correctly set - my thumb is mainly as a safety thing as well as letting me drop the lure where I want it if it seems it's going to overshoot my target.

 

Now when changing lure weights, you usually want to tweak the brakes...when in a hurry, the thumb becomes more important as the brakes aren't 'perfectly' set for the new lure.

[dodgeguy]

Lews top end reels have a externally adjustable centrifugal brake that almost never backlashes if set right. I run mine looser so my thumb does come into play. Braid backlashes the least and is easiest to remove backlashes from. It also does not get damaged when you do get a backlash.

[WRB]

Your reel has centrifugal brakes ( 6 ) as I recall. Start by using every other brake engaged, 3 on and 3 off. 

Adjust the spool tension knob as the video suggest with the lure weight not free falling just enough to slow the lure down slightly so when it hits the ground the spool stops spinning?

Thumb training is essential to become a good caster.

Your medium glass rod is moderate action, slower then a fast action that makes it easier to cast. Let the rod load up, no snap casting.

Tom

[bulldog1935]

this may help, once again, the primer I wrote on the 3 types of backlash ad 4 types of brakes

 

[diehardbassfishing]

It might be better to think of a reel's brake as a "Cast Control System". It might sound like a politically correct statement, but it's an accurate description.

 

A reel's brake is a very well designed device to INCREASE your casting distance while maintaining control of overrun. A thumb is great, and important, but adjusting a reel's brake control is critical to getting a maximum distance.

 

The biggest thing that the brake helps control is the initial part of the cast. This is by far the hardest job for a thumb to control.

 

Mid to end part of the cast, thumb becomes more useful. Myself, I only count on my thumb largely at end of cast. If I feel the line "fluffing" up mid-cast, I thumb it down a bit. When controlling around a case of mid-cast fluff, you know your reel brakes are in the max distance setting. You're coming frightening close to a nasty bird's nest. I like to call this "dancing with the devil"!

 

 

Karl

 

 

[fishhugger]

39 minutes ago, diehardbassfishing said:

 

 

Mid to end part of the cast, thumb becomes more useful. Myself, I only count on my thumb largely at end of cast. If I feel the line "fluffing" up mid-cast, I thumb it down a bit. When controlling around a case of mid-cast fluff, you know your reel brakes are in the max distance setting. You're coming frightening close to a nasty bird's nest. I like to call this "dancing with the devil"!

 

 

Karl

 

 

thanks, karl. the paragraph quoted is exactly what my thumb experienced... the line fluffing up --- yet the thumb took care of it (often). i guess at times i was using my thumb to kind of ride the spool, but  at the same time, do as little as possible --- except catch 'the fluff' beginning to occur. i'd never experienced this exact aspect of casting ----- hence my OP....  your point about the thumb becoming a factor mid cast to the end --- yeah, exactly what i felt. but i'm a newbie at this,.... 

 

happy dancing with the devil.... but don't  get bit.

[fishhugger]

1 hour ago, bulldog1935 said:

this may help, once again, the primer I wrote on the 3 types of backlash ad 4 types of brakes

 

thank you bulldog... i had already read your post awhile ago (and didn't understand it much). i got  more from it rereading it. nicely written. it's kind of dense.

i definitely try to 'load' my rod (especially since this new one is glass, which i've never used). but i've heard they load well.  and my longest casts seem to be when i load them, and smoothly send it out.. .pretty fun stuff. i had read a lot about not jerking or whipping the rod, like a spinning rod.

still working on my release point.

the 'wind backlash' i guess i began to experience, and seems like i was able to use my thumb to correct this... never experienced that before. but, i was backlashing a lot that evening. i think as i got used to the glass, i was able to make corrections. but not conscious. it just happened. i was suprised to feel line coiling up about mid or late cast, yet then controlled by my thumb. no nest. 

i understand the third backlash --- lure hits water. .

i'm unclear on spool overshoot (quoted)

***Centrifugal brakes are nonlinear.  They exert a centrifugal force on the spool, respond to acceleration and jerk, and their best effect is limiting start-up overshoot.****

idk if i've experienced this kind of backlash... maybe i'm just not noticing exactly when the backlash occurs, and so don't notice this type. id' say maybe the centrifugal brakes control this, except i turned them all off. i started with most of them on, then gradually turned them off as i got more comfortable with casting.

btw, i only cast side arm or backhand... haven't really tried overhand.  should i cast overhand???

so idk if you're advocating the thumb as mainly the best system for successful (longer) casting. you mention the thumb results in longest casting --- i'm assuming an experienced thumb, etc --- but that some of the brake systems can detract from distance. most guys seem to use a little of both brakes and thumbs... i guess i'm wondering if thumb only is preferable........... at this point, i don't understand enough about the various brakes, lure weights, line weights, wind, etc to have a valid opinion.

 

thanks so much......... hope this is clear enuf.

 

 

[Oklahoma Mike]

It’s a combination if the two. Also, I would suggest reconsidering the line you’re using. 10 lb test is a little on the smaller side for most bc reels. 

[bulldog1935]

if I advocate anything, it's use mag brake for distance casting, light lures, and facing the wind, and centrifugal brake for heavy lures, but always use your thumb.  What I linked above was just explaining, not advocating.   

 

Start-up overshoot - the first backlash - occurs because of the spool initially being jerked by the lure weight - this happens regardless of how you cast, though you can make it worse by adding jerk in your cast. 

Think of jerk as force-squared, and you only need force to keep the spool spinning once it starts. So the spool starts with way too much force left over.  If you had an old Ambassadeur, you've be very familiar with it. 

Centrifugal brake takes off that excess energy on start up. 

Centrifugal doesn't do much on mid-cast, unless you have it set so high it shortens your cast distance - so without a mag brake, you should be using your thumb mid-cast. 

 

Daiwa SV is a special non-linear mag brake that duplicates centrifugal on start-up, then reduces to a linear mag brake for mid-cast.

[fishhugger]

thanks everyone for the comments and advice... i was looking for one answer, but it's not that simple. i'll experiment with the brakes along with the thumbing.

[Boomstick]

There is no right or wrong answer here. A well trained thumb can definitely compensate for crappy brakes, but at the same time sometimes it's nice to set the brakes to a point where I can cast and focus on my cast and not worry so much about thumbing the spool properly.

 

A case where the latter can be really well appreciated is if I am switching between lures of different weights (obviously on different rods and reels), I can especially appreciate the latter because my thumb will be accustomed to throwing a heavy jig and then I'll switch to a lighter lure like a 1/4oz popper and have to thumb that less initially but more later on and that will throw me off. Other scenarios include when I'm shore fishing and there is a guard rail behind me, and when the wind is changing.

 

If I am primarily throwing one lure all day, I can back way off on those brakes and I'll be good to go, but as soon as I switch I often regret it.

[PhishLI]

8 hours ago, fishhugger said:

i'm a new baitcaster.  i just got a medium power 7' glass rod. my first rod is graphite, MH 7'. i would guess i was naive, in that i immediately went fishing with my new rod, but current reel w 10# mono, etc.  i was getting quite a few birdsnests --- much more than typical for me. finally, i thought - maybe it's the rod. i'm really not used to it?  

A rod is just part of a dynamic system. You're part of that system. Your thumb is a small element here. The biggest factor is how you unconsciously calibrate to the rest of the moving parts, but mostly to the rod, then any particular lure you have tied on at the moment. The weight of the lure hanging off the tip of the rod will instantly inform you about casting velocity, speed, and release point. It's a feel issue that you'll get better with over time. If you end up with multiple setups eventually, rods with different power and actions, you'll become calibrated to all of them and nesting will all but disappear.

[Smalls]

Obviously using both makes life easier, but technically you can eliminate the braking system and just use your thumb, and your reel will work. Unless you're ok with only 10 feet, you can't eliminate using your thumb and rely solely on the brakes.

[JustJames]

At beginning you will need more brake or even more spool tension. Once you feel comfortable with the reel and know when to use thumb, you can relax on spool tension. Once you know how to tether the line with your thumb when line fluffing you will need less brake. Once you feel like you will never get backlash, start flush and clean your spool bearing (and you might feel like noob again ???)

At this point for me, I don’t need a lot of brake and spool tension is loose (set it and forget it) for both day and night.

I will not hesitate to add more brake when it needs like in wind or when I cast from tight space. 
 

 

 

[Tennessee Boy]

When I was a little guy my grandfather tied a good size weight on a rod with a reel like this one.  He told me to go out in the yard and learn to cast with it.   I wanted to be a big boy fisherman so I stuck with it.   It’s one of many gift my grandfather gave me. Some guys enjoy tinkering with the setting on their reel just like some enjoy tinkering under the hood of their car.  If that’s you then you will probably enjoy utilizing the brakes on modern reels.  If you just want to fish then the time spent training your thumb is an investment that will pay dividends for the rest of you life.  No braking system can out perform a well trained thumb.

[fishhugger]

22 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

When I was a little guy my grandfather tied a good size weight on a rod with a reel like this one.  He told me to go out in the yard and learn to cast with it.   I wanted to be a big boy fisherman so I stuck with it.   It’s one of many gift my grandfather gave me. Some guys enjoy tinkering with the setting on their reel just like some enjoy tinkering under the hood of their car.  If that’s you then you will probably enjoy utilizing the brakes on modern reels.  If you just want to fish then the time spent training your thumb is an investment that will pay dividends for the rest of you life.  No braking system can out perform a well trained thumb.

idk... want to go back and experiment with my brakes... i'm pretty sure i cast 3/8 oz jig/trailer over 80'... no brakes at all, except spool tension (and i still need to study that to see what that really controls). i'm a newbie baitcaster, and was under the impression the less u use the breaks, the better. so - still getting experience and trying to figure out baitcasters and their braking systems...

 

appreciate all the great comments. 

[JustJames]

4 hours ago, fishhugger said:

i'm pretty sure i cast 3/8 oz jig/trailer over 80'... no brakes at all, except spool tension

i'm a newbie baitcaster, and was under the impression the less u use the breaks, the better.

Brake is that just brake, spool tension is more like emergency brake. Why you can only cast 80’ with no brake.

Using spool tension, you restrict the spin rate at all cast length, using brake you apply restrictions only when needed( when spool spin the fastest). You use thumb mostly to stop spool and tether the line when the line start to come loose out of spool.