Line tangling

[Whangler]

While trout fishing out of state in Wyoming last week, my 45 year old spinning rod and reel both failed within one day of each other (Fenwick 5’ rod and a green Penn Spinfisher ultralight reel). I needed a new outfit pronto! The best outfit I could find there was a Pfleuger President 30 and a 6’ Berkley medium light rod. I had the store wind 4# Trilene on the new reel. 

 

The line comes off the spool looking like a slinky when slack. If not careful when retrieving after a cast, the line might wind back on the spool over a coil causing a loop on the spool. I couldn’t cast far enough to clear that loop from the spool.  Pulling line off the spool in order to clear that loop resulted in major birds-nest so I ended up cutting off a good bit of line each time this happened. Major waste of time.
 

This doesn’t happen with my older reels and line (Shimano Sedona, Penn Spinfisher, Mitchell 302).
What might be the problem?

Thanks

 

[jimmyjoe]

   Please see Tom's post below.  ?        jj

[Whangler]

This my first time having line installed at a store, I’ve always done it myself by running the line inside of a phone book while reeling it in. Hmmm, bad line or faulty installation, Couldn’t be the reel could it?

[WRB]

Do you have a boat?

Whom ever installed line put it on backwards. Spinning reel the line comes off the filler spool from the bottom of the spool, casting reels off the top of the top of the filler spool.

You run the line behind a boat at walk speed without anything ties on the end. The water will untwist line in a few minutes.

Tom

[jimmyjoe]

10 minutes ago, WRB said:

Do you have a boat?

Whom ever installed line put it on backwards.

You run the line behind a boat at walk speed without anything ties on the end. The water will untwist line in a few minutes.

Tom

 

   Occam's Razor at work!        jj

[Bluebasser86]

What lures are you using? A lot of trout lures cause lots of line twist and could be contributing to your issues if you're not doing something to solve the line twist like using a swivel. 

[bulldog1935]

@Whangler  This means something. 

You are counting on auto bail closure to do the same thing on a new reel that it did on your old Penn. 

Doesn't work that way - the spool on your new reel is made for line to peel off so that it will cast farther. Even the new line is stiffer to reduce line memory, and that makes the line springy just like a slinky. 

You need to switch to manual bail closure and, you need to manage your line with good manual bail technique. 

Keep your free hand close to the spool, and use your finger tips to feather line at the end of your cast. 

Close the bail manually, not with the crank. 

Turn with the rod to take up all slack before you begin your retrieve. 

Selah. 

It's no accident that I showed my Tica Libra SX. 

Loaded with fluorocarbon, this is the reel I always loan. 

Inevitably, the borrower gets line behind the spool. 

Then we go over manual bail technique again, and problem solved. 

Don't ever try braid without using manual bail technique. 

 

@Whangler

Everything you're describing comes from trying to wind loose line - and then cast it again - repeat. 

It has nothing to do with how the line was put on the reel, and everything to do with how you put it back on the reel when fishing. 

Everything I described is to how prevent ever winding with loose line. 

[mrpao]

What kind of trilene did they put on the reel? XL, XT, Fluro?

XL is what I would think the store put on there since it's the most limp. But just curious.

XT and Fluro will be harder to manage.

[N.Y. Yankee]

I think the store clerk put the line on in a fashion that makes the line twist badly. take it off and respool it yourself and you should be good. There is a right way and a wrong way.

[MickD]

I don't know if all line labels are oriented the same way , or if all spin reels rotate the same way, so when I put line onto a spin reel I have it come off the end of the line spool counter clockwise if the reel rotates clockwise.  Vice versa if the reel rotates oopposite.  Because every rotation of the reel rotor puts one twist into the line.  Having it come off opposite takes that twist out.

 

A couple reservations.   Some reels say you should just feed it on from a rotating spool because the reel has a design that prevents twist.  I don't know if that is true, seems like it is contradictory to simple physics, but that's what's in some of my reels' instructions.  Also, as the reel source spools are most often larger in diameter than the reel spool, I believe the process will not ensure zero twist, just less twist than feeding it from a rotating source spool.  

 

Regardless of what technique is used, dragging the line behind a boat for a few minutes will take any twist out.

 

Excessive use of the drag will add twist since the rotor is not rotating.

 

I don't see the fundamental reason why manual closing of the bail prevents twist more than letting the reel close it.  I manually close it to minimize wear and tear on the bail mechanism and because it is smoother and quieter to do it that way.  I would appreciate someone clarify what physics is at work that makes one way better than the other for line twist.

 

I also don't see what there could be about your new reel that would make me suspect it is a problem.  I believe the installation of the line was done wrong.  You have some sort of line problem, not a reel problem.  Since the line is only 4 pound test it should be limp enough to work well even if it's flourocarbon, but most likely it's mono.  And should work fine if not twisted.

[Captain Phil]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

I don't see the fundamental reason why manual closing of the bail prevents twist more than letting the reel close it.  I manually close it to minimize wear and tear on the bail mechanism and because it is smoother and quieter to do it that way. 

 

How you choose to close the bail does not affect line twist.  Spinning reel line twist is caused by installing the line backwards or by lures that twist on the retrieve.  Most often, you install the line with the label on the spool facing up.  To check this, stop every 10 or so cranks and make sure the line is not twisting as you crank it on.  If it is, you will see the line ball up when slack.  If you try fishing with a spool full of twisted line, you will be in for a bad day.   I use a pair of cotton garden gloves when installing my line to put tension on the line.   Dragging the line behind your boat without a lure will straighten it out.  It's better to install it correctly the first time.

 

Flipping the bail over manually has advantages.  It allows you to straighten out loops in the line before they cause a bird's nest.   These loops are what causes this problem.  It slows down your fishing as many bass fisherman fish too fast.  Your lure falls deeper and more naturally.   There is less wear on the reel.  Back in the day, I used to carry extra bail springs as they failed often.

[bulldog1935]

22 hours ago, MickD said:

...I don't see the fundamental reason why manual closing of the bail prevents twist more than letting the reel close it.  I manually close it to minimize wear and tear on the bail mechanism and because it is smoother and quieter to do it that way.  I would appreciate someone clarify what physics is at work that makes one way better than the other for line twist.

 

I also don't see what there could be about your new reel that would make me suspect it is a problem.  I believe the installation of the line was done wrong.  You have some sort of line problem, not a reel problem.  Since the line is only 4 pound test it should be limp enough to work well even if it's flourocarbon, but most likely it's mono.  And should work fine if not twisted.

 

 

Most on this thread are assuming line twist is the issue - it's not. 

Winding over loose line is the issue, and proper manual bail technique will eliminate the problem, because you never have loose line when you do it correctly. 

I hope this thing is on. 

 

Modern spools and modern line are made for line to leave the spool and keep leaving the spool until you stop it.  A green Penn spinfisher wasn't made that way, and neither was limp high-memory mono. 

Loose loops of line covered up with tighter retrieve will come off the spool just like a slinky. The loose loop comes off the spool Before the tighter loop that was wound-on behind it.

This is what forms "wind knots" 

 

I've had this discussion with Many people to whom I've handed a reel. 

If you're going to use my braid reel, you're going to demonstrate proper manual bail technique before I turn my back on you. 

[MickD]

I respectfully submit that the original post mentioned the line coming off the spool looking like a slinky when slack.  If the line were not twisted, especially being 4 pound test, it would not come off in that manner.  None of us can be certain, and it could be a combination of problems, but there is strong evidence to suggest twisted line.

[TnRiver46]

Most folks would just blame the wind 

[bulldog1935]

On 10/10/2021 at 11:41 AM, TnRiver46 said:

Most folks would just blame the wind 

Doesn't matter whether you blame the wind, the reel, or the store clerk. 

Guess it matters to the store clerk. 

And why is it people don't blame the store clerk when they backlash a baitcaster? 

 

What's important is correcting the cause - the actual cause, that is. 

 

This is really simple.

The OP is letting line fall everywhere and expecting turning the crank to pick it up properly. 

Line wouldn't leave any of his 45-y-o reels as quickly as it will leave a modern reel with a long-stroke spool. 

I've walked too many friends through this exact situation. 

[islandbass]

Based on what I’ve read in the previous posts and your description, my best guess is that the line was not properly spooled - Not necessarily twisted. I would also lean toward thinking the line might have accidentally been laid unevenly such that it might have been, for lack of a better term, “forward cone shaped” I learned of this from my Shimano symetre’s manual the possible ways line can be laid on the spool and that Shimano provided shims to correct line lay if they existed. This forward cone, means more line has been laid toward the top of the spool than in the rear (think of line laid as if it were an ice cream cone) and as a result, that line on the top would naturally “jump off” regardless of whether the line was twisted. 
Best thing to do is removed the line and spool it yourself with the line of your choice. These type of problems for me are love/hate. I love the mystery of a challenge but I hate it if it’s going to cost me fishing time, lol. I hope you figure out the true culprit. 

[N.Y. Yankee]

..

[bulldog1935]

and if you use manual bail, you virtually can't over-fill a spool. 

Because the line is Always tight. 

 

[Whangler]

OP here. Thanks for all the replies guys. Clearly, winding over loose line caused the loop and hence the birds nest when I pulled off line to clear it. That said, when I pulled line off the spool,  it quickly twisted and tangled; that was ridiculous. I pulled off all of that new line and discarded it. I bought another spool of line and wound it on the way I learned as a kid: Fed line through the eyes of the rod onto the reel. Ran the line through a phone book to create tension, set the spool of new line flat on the table and reeled it in while the new spool turned as the line came off.  The new spool of line went on nice and tight and didn’t twist up when I  pulled off some line and let it slack. 
On another note, I was able to repair the old Penn “greenie”. I was about to toss it out but miraculously found a replacement bail spring! All good. Thanks again.
Happy fishing.