Super User Jar11591 Posted January 28 Super User Posted January 28 @Pat Brown It’s the same concept. You can make the same argument for anything. How many naturally gifted basketball players never had time in their schedule to join a basketball league? How many naturally gifted fishermen don’t have the capital to get their foot in the door. But we’re not talking the entry price. We’re talking about skill level to dominate of the best in the world. The percentage of that is effectively zero, in my opinion. Is there that one great white buffalo out there? Of course, odds say there has to be. Is there a non-zero percentage of these people who could dominate? I don’t see how that could be possible. 4
Rockhopper Posted January 28 Posted January 28 24 minutes ago, Jar11591 said: There is always that guy who thinks he can hit a major league fastball Incredibly bad analogy! The average speed of a major league fastball is 93.7 mph. Yes, hitting a baseball is probably the hardest thing you could possibly do in sports. I am not clueless, and I 100% understand the point you are driving at. But that is a poor analogy. For reference, literally last night my 15u club team I coach was in the cage raking off the machine set at 90 mph. These are 15 year olds hitting 90 mph. Hell, I can still hit a 90 mph fastball and I am getting old and fat! Now, had you said hitting a major league curve/slider/splitter/slurve/knuckle...I would 100% agree with you. 😄 OR any "major league fastball" over 95 mph....good luck making contact with that! The difference between a 95 and 100 mph fastball is homeruns! 1
Super User A-Jay Posted January 28 Super User Posted January 28 This is an interesting and entertaining topic to read through on this cold and very snowy day in the north woods. I'd like to leave this one right here . . . How could you not root for this guy ? A-Jay 4
Super User Jar11591 Posted January 28 Super User Posted January 28 @Rockhopper hitting out of a cage where the ball is delivered at the same rate to the same exact spot dead over the plate is not a major league fastball. That is a batting practice fastball. Major league fastballs are delivered by major league pitchers attempting to get the ball past the hitter. Not a pitching machine meant to deliver the ball to the same spot every time at the same rate so a hitter can get some practice in. Very different. What’s gonna happen when a major leaguer throws a fast ball at a measly 93mph and buzzes the tower, then paints the outside corner with the next pitch? You ain’t gonna be leaning over the plate like you would in a batting cage! 1
Rockhopper Posted January 28 Posted January 28 1 minute ago, Jar11591 said: @Rockhopper hitting out of a cage where the ball is delivered at the same rate to the same exact spot dead over the plate is not a major league fastball. That is a batting practice fastball. Major league fastballs are delivered by major league pitchers attempting to get the ball past the hitter. Not a pitching machine meant to deliver the ball to the same spot every time at the same rate so a hitter can get some practice in. Very different. I think you completely missed the point of my comment. You don't have to mansplain baseball to me. Been at it 40 years!Â
MediumMouthBass Posted January 28 Posted January 28 3 hours ago, Jar11591 said: @Pat Brown It’s the same concept. You can make the same argument for anything. How many naturally gifted basketball players never had time in their schedule to join a basketball league? How many naturally gifted fishermen don’t have the capital to get their foot in the door. But we’re not talking the entry price. We’re talking about skill level to dominate of the best in the world. The percentage of that is effectively zero, in my opinion. Is there that one great white buffalo out there? Of course, odds say there has to be. Is there a non-zero percentage of these people who could dominate? I don’t see how that could be possible. What...  You can join a basketball team in high school, which isnt hard. You wont be working or have a family to take care of so time wont be an issue. Its relatively easy to join and doesnt cost much, if you are good and have the talent you will be (more than likely) given a scholarship to go on and play it at the college level. From there if you stay with it and have the talent the sky is the limit.  Bass tournaments at the high school to college level are alot harder. Not many places have these programs, and the ones who do will only be accepting smaller groups. Bass tournaments are no where near as popular as most would think, especially compared to every other hobby, profession, etc....  If you start after college age like most do, you have a job, maybe a family, bills to pay, etc.... And the entry cost is sky high compared to the cost of team shoes, clothing, and maybe money towards trips for any sports would be. You need a boat, a truck/suv to tow it, yearly fees for both, maintenance costs too, were already at $40-100k before even buying tackle, rods, reels.... Rods, reels, tackle, electronics just to compete and now add another 10-20K. Then theres the gas you and you only will be paying, no team to help split the cost of gas, hotel rooms, food, etc...  Give up your job, leave your family, travel like a truck driver, bankrupt yourself and for what? Any talent you have would be negated by a guy staring down at a screen watching fish dropping a lure in front of him? And if you win you make pocket change compared to other hobbies, sports, or good paying jobs. Then go on to spend every bit of spare time you have promoting every item a sponsor (if you are lucky enough to get one) makes, competing against a stacked deck with people who have equal, better or worse talent but because they have more sponsors, more money they already have you beaten. Anyone in their right mind no matter how good they are would chose to not go forward. The lucky few who have a family thats understanding, or were very fortunately born rich might be able to. Thats not the majority of people. 1 1
Pat Brown Posted January 28 Posted January 28 I think that comparing pay to play sports to people devoting free time to rising up in basketball through merit and devotion is a false equivalency but I see valuable insights being shared by everyone. Good discussion! 1
Super User Jar11591 Posted January 28 Super User Posted January 28 7 minutes ago, MediumMouthBass said: You can join a basketball team in high school, which isnt hard. I don’t really know what to say to that. 1
SkippinJimmy Posted January 28 Posted January 28 16 minutes ago, A-Jay said: This is an interesting and entertaining topic to read through on this cold and very snowy day in the north woods. I'd like to leave this one right here . . . How could you not root for this guy ? A-Jay A dream and tragic story. 1
Texas Flood Posted January 28 Posted January 28 I think I understand why this thread was dead for 3 years.. 7
Rockhopper Posted January 28 Posted January 28 19 minutes ago, Jar11591 said: I don’t really know what to say to that. He's saying the route to professional ball sports is honestly very low in price compared to professional bass fishing IF you have the talent. Join a team in high school...do well, and get recognized...earn a scholarship to college...do well and get recognized...get drafted to professional sports...  Though the percentage of athletes that have the ability to do that is very low, it can be done for a relatively low price compared to professional bass fishing in which unless you start out with a huge pile of money, you are going to be paying A LOT to play at the same level. 17 minutes ago, Texas Flood said: I think I understand why this thread was dead for 3 years.. It is still a really fun topic to discuss! 2
Super User T-Billy Posted January 28 Super User Posted January 28 I don't know about average Joe's, but I've heard the legend of 'Ol Crickety, Aka The Swamp Girl. Legend has it, she's a way above average Jane in Maine that regularly catches 20# sacks before breakfast, and she only uses three lures to do it. Seems impossible, but the locals swear it's true. 3 5
Super User Swamp Girl Posted January 28 Super User Posted January 28 2 hours ago, Pat Brown said: And let's be doubly realistic: the best painter is someone we will never know their name. The best musicians same same. Etc etc.  Spot on. As you listen to the woman below, contrast her voice with Madonna's, whose voice is thin and tinny. Then remember that Madonna's voice is enhanced in studios and the woman below has only a guitar behind her:   15 minutes ago, T-Billy said: I don't know about average Joe's, but I've heard the legend of 'Ol Crickety, Aka The Swamp Girl. Legend has it, she's a way above average Jane in Maine that regularly catches 20# sacks before breakfast, and she only uses three lures to do it. Seems impossible, but the locals swear it's true.  Ha! You make me laugh, Tim! 2
MediumMouthBass Posted January 28 Posted January 28 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rockhopper said: He's saying the route to professional ball sports is honestly very low in price compared to professional bass fishing IF you have the talent. Join a team in high school...do well, and get recognized...earn a scholarship to college...do well and get recognized...get drafted to professional sports...  Though the percentage of athletes that have the ability to do that is very low, it can be done for a relatively low price compared to professional bass fishing in which unless you start out with a huge pile of money, you are going to be paying A LOT to play at the same level. Like you said, percentage is very low. Only those with extreme talent make it in most sports.  This is very different, its like what Pat said several times, modern day bass tournament fisherman are more salesmen/influencers than they are fisherman. Because its not a sport, its a tv show at this point. Add on the never ending drama its a soap opera. Entertainment is the key, hence why they took all the skill out of it and only use FFS. They want people paying attention to the tv, phone, computer staring at people catching a bass every minute. No one (except me) wants to see guys actually fishing, learning the lake firsthand, guessing where the bass are, guessing depth, using only their natural born talent, and skills. Because that would take to long and be boring to most people. I get it, but that doesnt mean i have to like it.  Imagine if sports went this route, whats the point? Its basically turned into a video game. If you took away all the tech that does most of the work at this point, and made people actually fish. I would bet on the dedicated angler who gives it all hes got after coming home from work, than the guy who took gold in the glorified VR simulator, who is only there because he was the few that showed up with a rod, reel, and 200k in cash, with all the free time in the world.  Edit. I will add this, im sure theres still a bunch of guys and gals with god given talent fishing for bass at the big leagues. Who put in time, dedication, sank a fortune into it, and are struggling with their families who miss them. Sadly the few who cant catch a bass without it are catered to over the many, which in my opinion completely ruins it. Because i can take a guy who knows nothing about fishing, put him on a boat with FFS, and within 10 minutes he will be catching more than me. So even those who made it there with that talent, its pointless now.  Edited January 28 by MediumMouthBass 2
Super User Columbia Craw Posted January 28 Super User Posted January 28 Perspective and context.  Pros?  What bodies of water? The annual big nine?  Practice or no practice?  Neutral locations?  Parody in funding?  There is no doubt in my mind that there’s a handful of anglers who could compete and well.  Dominate? Not likely.  2
Texas Flood Posted January 28 Posted January 28 41 minutes ago, MediumMouthBass said: Because i can take a guy who knows nothing about fishing, put him on a boat with FFS, and within 10 minutes he will be catching more than me.  How bad are you at fishing? 3
Pat Brown Posted January 28 Posted January 28 4 minutes ago, Texas Flood said: How bad are you at fishing?   I don't feel like I'm very bad at fishing and I'd wager for numbers the same is true on any of the lakes I fish. Probably even for size, who knows?  It's just not really the same as having to do it with skill at all.  I don't think that makes me or anyone else bad who doesn't have the money to play around with it and I don't begrudge anyone choosing to use it in their free time to have fun and catch more fish.  I don't think steroids in pro level baseball is a great thing either? What are we teaching our kids by allowing that to be the way we measure greatness?  It's just like more interesting when people who are good at something win with skill to me but I get that it's about selling a lifestyle and making sponsors happy and I respect the hustle.
Texas Flood Posted January 28 Posted January 28 3 minutes ago, Pat Brown said:   I don't feel like I'm very bad at fishing and I'd wager for numbers the same is true on any of the lakes I fish.  It's just not really the same as having to do it with skill at all.  I don't think that makes me or anyone else bad who doesn't have the money to play around with it and I don't begrudge anyone choosing to use it in their free time to have fun and catch more fish.  I don't think steroids in baseball are a great thing either?  It's just like more interesting when people who are good at something win with skill to me but I get that it's about selling a lifestyle and making sponsors happy and I respect the hustle. You're good Pat. I was just making a joke about Medium getting outfished in ten mintues by someone who's never fished. 1
MediumMouthBass Posted January 28 Posted January 28 3 hours ago, Texas Flood said: How bad are you at fishing? Some years im excellent and better than everybody else at the lakes im fishing (not a brag but a statistic ive noticed). Other years im the worst fisherman i can be, and get skunked a lot. Where everyone else feels like they doing everything right and i have no clue what im doing.  Sometimes i have it, and then i dont. But when its on. Its on  Im just saying, if i was going around the whole lake (in PA our lakes are very small and extremely over pressured) my chances of catching bass can go either way. If i showed a random guy a 5 minute video on how to use FFS and he went around and found a school. He would outfish me no matter how good or bad i am. I personally dont care whether someone uses it or not, if they have the money for it and that gives them enjoyment then i support it 100%. But it shouldnt be used in tournaments, it has no place. Its like sterioids in sports, or imagine if in golf they added a drainage pipe that you could just put the ball into that would guide you directly to the fish, i mean hole.
Texas Flood Posted January 28 Posted January 28 4 minutes ago, MediumMouthBass said: Some years im excellent and better than everybody else at the lakes im fishing (not a brag but a statistic ive noticed). Other years im the worst fisherman i can be, and get skunked a lot. Where everyone else feels like they doing everything right and i have no clue what im doing.  Sometimes i have it, and then i dont. But when its on. Its on  Im just saying, if i was going around the whole lake (in PA our lakes are very small and extremely over pressured) my chances of catching bass can go either way. If i showed a random guy a 5 minute video on how to use FFS and he went around and found a school. He would outfish me no matter how good or bad i am. I personally dont care whether someone uses it or not, if they have the money for it and that gives them enjoyment then i support it 100%. But it shouldnt be used in tournaments, it has no place. Its like sterioids in sports, or imagine if in golf they added a drainage pipe that you could just put the ball into that would guide you directly to the fish, i mean hole. My poor attempt at a joke opened the window to FFS talk and I just want to apologize to the BR community.   I will learn from this an try to be better next time. 1 5
Susky River Rat Posted January 28 Posted January 28 Pros in any sport are pros for a reason. They are the best in the world at what they do. I played high school football who ended up playing in the NFL. The dude was next level at a very young age. Went to a **** public school and had very little money growing up.  look at Ike. He didn’t have a real bass boat till he won it at a pro am as a co angler. He started from nothing. It can happen in fishing and I am sure there are people who do miss out because of money.  The point is the pros in any sport just have something special. 2
Pumpkin Lizard Posted January 29 Posted January 29 7 hours ago, Rockhopper said: I think it is very naive to say that 0% of recreational anglers could compete on a pro level, and even win. Though the percentage is probably very very small across the US, you can't tell me there are not several expert level recreational anglers in our country that genuinely have zero interest in chasing a pro level tournament series, or even competing at all. Of the what...350 million?...people that live in the US alone, you really think that only 104 of them are good enough to fish the elites? That is like saying between the estimated 100 billion to 400 billion planets in our galaxy, earth is the only one that sustains life. There are more out there.  It's a non zero number, but it's so small it's inconsequential.  Part of the being among the elite is throwing you hat in the ring and having the desire to try to be the best. All of the best pro anglers are killers. That's part of the formula. 5 hours ago, A-Jay said: This is an interesting and entertaining topic to read through on this cold and very snowy day in the north woods. I'd like to leave this one right here . . . How could you not root for this guy ? A-Jay  Good point. He was an aspiring pro but put everything he had into getting to where he got to. But definitely wasn't an average joe.
Super User Tennessee Boy Posted January 29 Super User Posted January 29 If you took any NFL player and let them play college football they would dominate. Â If you let them play high school football it would be scary. Â Â Many Elite level anglers fish lower level tournaments and some even fish small local tournaments. Â You don't see the separation in skill level that you see in other sports. Â I'm not saying there's not a difference and I'm certainly not saying the Elite level guys aren't good but I've seen plenty of average Joe's beat Elite level anglers. Â It happens all the time. Â 1
Super User gim Posted January 29 Super User Posted January 29 13 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said: Many Elite level anglers fish lower level tournaments and some even fish small local tournaments.  You don't see the separation in skill level that you see in other sports. That’s because of the physical nature relied on by professionals in other sports, such as football. You can’t tell me someone like John Cox is in tip top physical condition. He’s a heck of an angler, and I like him, but he is no athlete.  Seth Feider is frequently on a segment of local sports talk radio I listen to during the outdoors portion and he has openly stated he would get his but whipped in some of the weekly derbies on Lake Minnetonka, his home lake he used to fish years ago. He just doesn’t fish there frequently enough anymore to be competitive. 1
Recommended Posts