Knot very happy

[The Baron]

I’m getting extremely tired of using the “wrong” knot and losing stuff.

 

I’m back into fishing after a very long interruption - I pretty much got straight off a smallmouth fishing time machine from the late 80’s. lol.  I came from a world of 8# Stren mono, where we tied our Hula Poppers and floating Rapala’s with an improved clinch knot.  In fact, it was the only knot my father taught me and all we ever used. But, we knew enough to respool our Mitchell 300’s with fresh line every spring and to retie our snap swivel at least weekly.  We never lost a lure or fish due to a newly-tied knot failing. Ever.

 

Now I’m learning to be a modern angler, using braid and fluoro.  I’ve lost lures, fish… and a good chunk of my mind learning what knots to use/not use.  I’ve lost fish and cast away entire dropshot rigs learning the double uni knot to connect our leaders.  I tie a solid one now, but hearing those rake through the guides and perusing YouTube, I decided I must learn the FG knot.  First time I successfully tied a super sexy FG, it tested great in the house… then pulled out on a dandy smallmouth on my first cast.? So, back to the double uni and reduced casting distance I went.

 

I was happy to read I could get away from leaders for frogging… then cast a frog away with an improved clinch knot.  A young fishing friend then said yeah, that’s the wrong knot for braid.?  So… I learned the palomar knot.  Then my son and I both lost fish and a couple drop shot hooks in the same day.  I went back to the improved clinch knot temporarily… and that failed us too.  I texted my young friend and he says yeah, those knots aren’t good for fluorocarbon.☹️ So… I learned the Trilene knot.  Then we lost a couple more fish and when I was pretty much ready to go jump of a bridge, my friend said we probably just had a bad roll of fluoro - apparently, that’s a thing. So I replaced our leader material and we’re doing better, although the emotional scars may be permanent.

 

Today, I was geared up for some exciting topwater action with a 12# mono leader on 30# braid.   I thought about using the old tried and true improved clinch knot from my youth, but no… I’m gonna do “better” and use the Trilene knot.  About 15 beautiful casts in, I watch my brand new Yo Zuri Pencil 125 sail freely out into Lake Ontario because my knot at the lure slipped.  Of course, we’re shore fishing so that’s that (I thought about swimming, but my wife would kill me if I drowned trying to retrieve a lure).  Really, I feel like I’m playing whack-a-mole with knots.?

 

There’s no question here, but I guess there is some “what didn’t work” lessons.  I never knew I’d need a PhD in knots to make use of all this new fangled gear. ?

[Russ E]

Trilene raves about their knot. Personally I am not a fan. It is easy to burn the line when clinching down.

Nearly any knot will work but they have to be tied correctly.

One thing to remember is Lubing the line when cinching down is  necessary with nearly any knot.

Also test the knot before casting. Everybody occasionally makes a bad knot Give it a couple tugs. If it doesn't break you are good to go. If it breaks just tie again.

I very seldom ever have a failed knot.

 

Here are my favorite knots. They are all easy to tie with a little practice.

 

For braid to mono or fluoro leader, I use the Alberto knot. Easy to tie and strong if tied correctly.

For straight braid I use a Palomar knot.

For straight fluoro I use a double pitzen knot. I actually also  use this knot on straight mono most of the time.

For straight mono it is usually a Palomar knot

[The Baron]

I do goober all my knots and try not to cinch them down too fast.  I also visually inspect and tug test all my knots.

 

I may just be cursed.  Which is fine, but I don’t want to pass it down to my son.

[scaleface]

I use a trilene knot 100 per cent of the time with mono or floro . Palomar with braid . Easy to tie and no slippage . A trilene will slip on braid . 

[Captain Phil]

Check out the Jimmy Houston knot.  I've been using it for years.  Works well with all lines.

 

[TnRiver46]

I just use your old ways that you listed when you never had problems 

[MickD]

Given your history of knot problems I recommend you forget about the FG.  There are just too many ways for it to fail, from not being tied properly to slippery braid to who-knows-what.  I'm convinced that it works better for the really heavy leaders used in heavy salt fishing, but not so well with the stuff we bass fishermen use.  

 

The Alberto is small and if you tie two overhand knots of braid with the tag end after VERY SOLIDLY SETTING the wet knot it will never unravel.  Tighten the braid overhand knots tightly too.

 

Of course it is wise to retie the braid to leader knot now and then depending on your use.

 

[LrgmouthShad]

8 minutes ago, MickD said:

Given your history of knot problems I recommend you forget about the FG. 

For a couple years I used only braid to leaders on my rods. I always used FG. I have never had an FG knot fail on me and it has made me confident in leaders. 

 

That being said, less knots is a good thing and if the confidence isnt there, no need to force anything. 

 

I recently learned the palomar and I am having a grand time with it, even though I have had few issues with the improved clinch. I am careful about my drag. 

 

I have long heard that the palomar is far superior to the improved clinch for both braid and fluoro. The double improved clinch knot is a good fluoro knot also.

[Team9nine]

3 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

I just use your old ways that you listed when you never had problems 

 

I think this ^^ is the answer to the unasked question. You’d be in good company, as another current and ongoing thread had half of all the people recommending good old monofilament line over the newer alternatives. Your same old knots would still work and everything.

[billmac]

I use the Uni-knot for everything except dropshot. I use a palomar knot for that.

 

As far as your leader knot going through the guides, I just use 20- 30 yards of flouro as a leader, so my knot never leaves the spool and is unlikely to be a point of failure.

[Bass Junke]

1 hour ago, billmac said:

I use the Uni-knot for everything except dropshot. I use a palomar knot for that.

 

As far as your leader knot going through the guides, I just use 20- 30 yards of flouro as a leader, so my knot never leaves the spool and is unlikely to be a point of failure.

Same knots here. No leader though. 

[TnRiver46]

1 hour ago, Team9nine said:

 

I think this ^^ is the answer to the unasked question. You’d be in good company, as another current and ongoing thread had half of all the people recommending good old monofilament line over the newer alternatives. Your same old knots would still work and everything.

Dont fix it if it ain’t broke. Why fiddle with a bunch of extra knots that take up fishing time? 

[Chris Catignani]

I use a reverse clinch...and have used this for a good while...its similar to a San Diego Jam knot...and still use alot of mono.

[WRB]

Any knot tied poorly will fail regardless of the line used.

Monofilament nylon line is very forgiving regarding knot strength, several knots work.

The original improved clinch know is 109% knot strength on mono tied correctly. 12 lb mono a 5 to 7 turns, wetted and clinch down carefully is very reliable knot.

Look at the line next to the knot for any shiny or flatten line indicate it’s damage during clinching tight. This applies to all knots with mono, Copolymer or FC. 

Another common knot failure is the line has been compromised by age, abrasion, nicks form sharp hook edges, etc.

The Palomar knot tied without twisting the knot is easy to tie onto hooks and snaps. 

FC line is a rattlesnake to use, it will bite you.

Before Fluorocarbon line 99% of fresh water anglers used the improved clinch knot or Palodmar knot. After FC more knots have been tried to resolve poor knot strength then anyone can list. It’s the line, no knot can change this simple fact.

I use the San Diego Jam knot with FC, Copolymer and mono lines tying on lures, Palomar for hooks and snaps. 2 knot that work and simple to tie under Fishing conditions. Braid with leader is un necessary requiring 2 knots to fail.

Tom

[islandbass]

Many of the knots you mentioned are very good and reliable knots. I use the improved clinch knot for lures I deem too big or a hassle to tie a palomar. I also use the palomar for T-rigs and Drop shot. I have also used the rapala, trilene knots too. I have also tried the double uni and Albright for joining lines. I use the Albright more only because when I’m out fishing, I can never seem to remember the double uni knot, if a retie is necessary, lol.
 

The Albright also works for when two lines are of unequal diameter. 
 

None of these knots have ever failed me when properly tied. 
 

This isn’t a knock on you, but perhaps the culprit is something possibly went wrong while tying the knots. I suspect it is unlikely the fault of the knot if all these knots have failed you in the same way. 
 

For example, were the standing and tag ends crossed while tying the palomar knot?

Or, when cinching down the improved clinch knot, was it cinched in such a way that the line above knot got compromised? How so? Sometimes, if you cinch the knot too early and too tight above the hook and the lure, as you move the cinched part of the knot toward your lure, it is compromising the integrity of the main line above the knot. Sometimes when I am impatient, I unintentionally do this. However, as a fail safe I ALWAYS check the main line immediately above the knot. If I feel any wear, despite how impatient I am, I will cut it off and retie and mentally kick myself in the phanny for letting my impatience cost me fishing time. 
 

Develop the habit of taking the time to check your knots after you complete them. The 5 seconds you spend checking a freshly tied knot could save you from losing the fish of a lifetime. 

[T-Billy]

11 hours ago, scaleface said:

I use a trilene knot 100 per cent of the time with mono or floro . Palomar with braid . Easy to tie and no slippage . A trilene will slip on braid . 

Same here plus Alberto for leaders. All simple and reliable if tied correctly.

[MickD]

6 hours ago, billmac said:

20- 30 yards of flouro as a leader,

So why use any braid?  Just use all flouro line.

[JimT]

curious what people would recommend for Yo-Zuri hybrid line. I've been using Palomar but is there a better knot for hybrid? 

[Phelptwan]

What I'm currently using:

Backing to Braid - Alberto Knot

Braid to Leader - FG Knot (Salt Strong method, burned ends)

Fluoro to bait - Double Pitzen/Three Tag knot/etc

Mono to bait - Palomar Knot

Braid to bait - Double Palomar Knot

Flipping - Snell Knot

 

 

On a note, I used to use Palomar's on the Fluoro's but have had constant problems with them breaking.  I read something related to fluoro breaking at the kink in the palomar knot and to try the pitzen, have had no problems since.

[new2BC4bass]

On 9/2/2021 at 9:10 PM, The Baron said:

I do goober all my knots and try not to cinch them down too fast.  I also visually inspect and tug test all my knots.

 

I may just be cursed.  Which is fine, but I don’t want to pass it down to my son.

I am getting that vibe from you. 

[jimmyjoe]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:47 PM, The Baron said:

Now I’m learning to be a modern angler, using braid and fluoro.

 

   Why are you trying to be a "modern angler"?  You had a system that worked. The fish haven't changed. Why did you change?

 

   I always tell people, "Believe what you see right in front of you." That means ignore the hype and look at the reality. The reality is that you've bought yourself a lot of trouble. You're losing fish and  you're losing lures.

  

   Forget what other people say. Just do what you know works.                 jj

[The Baron]

On 9/4/2021 at 6:16 AM, jimmyjoe said:

Why are you trying to be a "modern angler"?  You had a system that worked. The fish haven't changed.

I have asked myself that question a few times.  But, my curse is that when I do anything, I like to dive deep and there's a lot more information available nowadays to learn from.  Learning is part of the challenge for me and, if I can get through this learning curve, is very much part of the fun.  My repertoire as a youngster was extremely limited -  period-correct topwater (Hula Popper, Jitterbug or a Heddon Drying Flutter Spook, usually), a Rapala F13, J11 or FatRap, the odd spoon or spinner and a Mister Twister jig or spin jig.  That worked fine where/when I grew up, fishing in Lakes that would now be considered essentially zero pressure.  All the "real" anglers wanted walleye or lake trout to eat.  For some reason, I fell in love with catch and release smallmouth - I think because they were accessible, aggressive, great fighters... and (let's be honest here) took no real skill to find or catch in those days/places.  I used to cast around the shore or troll not far off shore.  I had no idea what structure fishing was, nor did we ever have electronics or look at a lake controur map.  To say I was a very simple fisherman would be totally fair - but that's all it took back then/there.

 

I would argue that the fish have indeed changed, for me at least.  When I was fishing back lakes, a 4# smallmouth was a monster and you wouldn't find many smallmouth fisherman who had a PB much over that.  Now I live further south and can fish Lake Ontario and the St. Lawrence River, where a 6#+ is a very real possibility.  There's also good largemouth fishing here, which is new to me and I'm learning from scratch, so why not learn to be good at it and make use of the modern ways?  Heck, I never fished with any kind of rubber when I was a kid except the Mister Twisters, so never mind modern - I'm a total greenhorn at that basic stuff.

That's a bit of an expansion, but the short answer to your question is... for personal satisfaction in getting better at something I enjoy - even if it does involve a lot of growing pains.

[billmac]

13 hours ago, MickD said:

So why use any braid?  Just use all flouro line.

Couldn't that question be asked about any length leader?  Why does anyone use braid?

[jimmyjoe]

4 hours ago, The Baron said:

the short answer to your question is... for personal satisfaction in getting better at something I enjoy - even if it does involve a lot of growing pains.

 

   Okay. I can understand that. To a certain extent, I'm the same way.

 

   I had problems with lines and knots, too. I didn't solve the problems on the water. I solved them in the garage. I took line in which I had interest, and I tested it. I pulled on it, loaded it up until it broke, and looked at where it broke. I used all kinds of knots (from animations on the web) and tied several of the same kind at once, looped on a post or iron pipe. Then I pulled until they all broke. Some were consistent ... some weren't. Some were stronger than others .... especially in fluorocarbon. (I rejected fluoro line until last year, when I discovered InvizX and the triple-loop knot.)

   What I discovered is that testing in the garage, time after time, made my consistency tying knots out on the water MUCH MUCH BETTER.

   And several things became clear:

 

   1) Any line and knot that will hold 5 lb. pull will bend double (and possibly break) any medium or medium-heavy rod that I have seen. (Snags are different. Some snags will break 65 lb. braid.)

   2) Braided polyethylene line has a knot strength about 45-50 % of its laboratory tensile strength.

   3) Fluorocarbon seems (in my opinion) to have knot problems, and I think it's related to bend radius. A fluoro knot on a pipe seemed to hold fine, but the same knot on a hook eye held in the vice .... not so much. I have only one reel filled with fluoro. It's InvizX 12 lb. test, and I use only the triple-loop knot. Since the biggest part of the triple-loop knot is the same as the Improved clinch knot (which you already use), I would advise you to test the triple-loop knot first. Test it many times and improve your consistency.

   4) I came to this forum to learn lots of new stuff, and I did learn lots of new stuff. People came at me ten different directions with ten different ideas. Some were good, and some were bad. I always looked at what happened right in front of me, and I believed that first and foremost. I especially pay attention now to where people fish. I live in the Midwest, and what people do in the Great Lakes area (like you), the South and California can be mightily different than what works for me. That will probably be true for you, too. You need to pick and choose everything.

 

    I can use nylon monofilament for everything I do and anywhere I do it. It might not be the best choice, but it'll work. No matter how much I use them, all the other lines are just icing on the cake.

So after years of testing and trying, I've basically returned to the "old ways". It was a nice trip, but it has come full circle.

   Maybe it will for you, too.

 

   Good luck! Catch fish! Be happy!  ???       jj

  

 

  

  

  

  

[MickD]

10 hours ago, billmac said:

Couldn't that question be asked about any length leader?  Why does anyone use braid?

No, not in my opinion.  When you use a leader that long most of the time the braid is still on the reel so the sensitivit/hook set advantage is lost.  With a short leader, 6 feet and under, you get a little shock absorption but the sensitivity/hook set advantage of braid is for the most part still there.