Carpentry

[Mobasser]

After retiring from almost 40 yrs as a carpenter, I've become disheartened now. Starting at 19 as a house framer, then into trim and finish work before going to work for the union, the quality of work I've seen recently is poor at best.                                                         Recently helping a friend with a plumbing repair, I took a good look at the basement framing. Floor hoist cut 1/2" short, scores of nails which never hit the floor joist, from the subfloor. In the attic, I saw rafters which didn't touch the ridge board, and ceiling hoist which barely laid on the walls, maybe, 1/2". All this going on in an expensive house, in an exclusive home edition.                           This was all compensated for by shooting what looked like 40 nails in each of these areas. All of this work was inspected by an inspector, and he passed it.                Over the years, I climbed into attics that were 80 or 100 yrs old. I saw framing that was cut perfectly, probably cut by hand, and I'm sure nailed by hand.                                                            In this newer house, these cuts will eventually lose any strength, sag, and cause drywall to pop loose, bringing costly repairs, and other problems over time.                                                             Here's a suggestion: if your a young man just getting into carpentry, never accept this. If your crew does this type of work, quit this crew, and hire in with a crew that does good work, and, has a good reputation.                               Carpentry is hard work, it's never been easy. Be prepared to come home sore and beat tired many days. If you do decide to make this your chosen profession, you'll probably be a little banged up when you get older. I know I am.                                    But keep in mind, your name is on the work you do. Someone, at some point will judge you by your work. Don't fall in  with the hacks, and the wood butchers. Keep your head up, and be proud to be a carpenter. To sum it up here: do your best work at all times. If your going to be a carpenter- be a good one.

[MN Fisher]

I hear you there, Sean.

 

I ran a cabinetmaking business out of my basement for 15 years as a sideline to my IT work - specialized in custom bookcases, display cases, curio cabinets. Made a number of sales, but many people didn't want to pay for the types of things I did - like insetting the shelves in blind dado joints, using hardwood sheathed plywood as the backing board instead of cheap press-board, using high quality woods like maple, walnut and oak.

 

One sale I made, he wanted it purple

I suggested Purpleheart - this is the color it comes out of the tree

It darkens over the years like this

When I showed him samples of fresh and aged purpleheart - he was more than willing to pay the extra expense.

 

Most people would rather have painted pine than quality work...which is why I shut down.

[TnRiver46]

All those carpentry blunders let varmints in the house. Granted, many times the varmints tear or chew their way in but when the roof decking never touches the fascia, they don’t really have to chew a hole in anything to get into the attic. 

funny but sad story: my boss took a bunch of pictures of all these carpentry blunders and how they let animals into attics and crawl spaces. He made a big slide show and everything, and took it to a local builders meeting and presented it, hoping maybe they would realize all the holes they leave are causing people problems. Well as you might have guessed, they laughed him out of the room. If the house sells, the people that build it no longer care and are onto the next house, building it as fast as possible. The moral of the story is as long as people keep buying the homes full of mistakes, the mistakes will continue. It’s similar to the weatherman thread. If we keep looking up the weather, they will keep selling adds and putting out inaccurate forecasts. The only way to prevent this is on the buyer’s end and………. well let’s face it……… we just keep buying crappy products and complaining about them. 

[Catt]

My grandfather was a carpenter, my dad & his 4 brothers were carpenters. They built entire houses with a folding ruler, a framing square, a hand saw, & a wooden handled hammer.

 

At 12 years old I was framing houses, doing trim, & building cabinets. At 14 years  old I was running crews. 

 

I have never seen it so prevalent than after hurricane Laura. Every roof in Southwest Louisiana was damaged or gone, didn't matter if it was shingle, tile, or metal.

 

My roof was no different, after inspecting the shingles I noticed 2 errors with the installation, one was only 3 nails holding the shingles, & the "Cellophane" strip under the shingles were never removed. Watched crews replacing roofs & 90% were making the same mistakes.

 

Home buyers today only care about looks not what's behind the paint!

[Mobasser]

4 minutes ago, Catt said:

My grandfather was a carpenter, my dad & his 4 brothers were carpenters. They built entire houses with a folding ruler, a framing square, a hand saw, & a wooden handled hammer.

 

At 12 years old I was framing houses, doing trim, & building cabinets. At 14 years  old I was running crews. 

 

I have never seen it so prevalent than after hurricane Laura. Every roof in Southwest Louisiana was damaged or gone, didn't matter if it was shingle, tile, or metal.

 

My roof was no different, after inspecting the shingles I noticed 2 errors with the installation, one was only 3 nails holding the shingles, & the "Cellophane" strip under the shingles were never removed. Watched crews replacing roofs & 90% were making the same mistakes.

 

Home buyers today only care about looks not what's behind the paint!

Catt, I was surprised that an inspector signed off on this work. It was horrible. But, the inspector probably knows the builder and plays golf with him. That's how it goes these days. But, I still think carpentry is an honorable profession. Just get with the right crew.

[MN Fisher]

13 minutes ago, Mobasser said:

But, I still think carpentry is an honorable profession. Just get with the right crew.

I had to correct the crew that redid my garage and porch roof a couple years ago. State code requires 'hurricane straps' on the roof trusses cause of our tornado chances here...guess what they forgot to install on their 'first run' through.

 

Even the foreman, when I asked him what was wrong with the work, didn't 'see' it. Had to point it out to him.

[Mobasser]

When I started out, the boss would holler " Let's Go, Time Is Money"! That meant work hard, and keep moving, not do sloppy work.  I wouldn't buy a new house now.

Around here, it's hard for building crews to even find help, let alone skilled carpenters. Most young guys have little interest in this trade.

[Bubba 460]

 

I can relate to that having worked on a framing crew for seven years in the 60's and 70's. For the last 18 years we have been living in a house that was built in 1779. The brick walls are 18 inches thick, interlocking. The ceilings are 10 feet high on the main floor. The rafters are notched heart of pine (no ridge) in excellent shape.  It has plastered walls and ceilings and a slate roof. Six fire places and an English basement. That's not to say that work has not been done to it and It's not perfect but it's still standing strong after more the 250 years. It's well built and it's home. Haunted?... that's still debatable, lets just say I take pretty good care of the grave yard.

[Mobasser]

5 minutes ago, Bubba 460 said:

 

I can relate to that having worked on a framing crew for seven years in the 60's and 70's. For the last 18 years we have been living in a house that was built in 1779. The brick walls are 18 inches thick, interlocking. The ceilings are 10 feet high on the main floor. The rafters are notched heart of pine (no ridge) in excellent shape.  It has plastered walls and ceilings and a slate roof. Six fire places and an English basement. That's not to say that work has not been done to it and It's not perfect but it's still standing strong after more the 250 years. It's well built and it's home. Haunted?... that's still debatable, lets just say I take pretty good care of the grave yard.

Beautiful home. In those days, it took months to build a home like this, maybe longer. Some real craftsmanship here.

[Mobasser]

What I've read, is that before circular saws were invented, there was always a cut man, and on big homes probably two. They worked out front cutting by hand on sawhorses, getting measurements from a carpenter on the floor of the house. This alone would have been a hard job. A laborer then packed up the cut boards to nail drivers, who put things together.                                  The cut men were very skilled. Cutting hips, jacks, and straight rafters by hand. A slow process. Now, it's all about speed. Quality doesn't seem to.matter anymore.

Not to mention the lumber and bricks were hauled by horses and wagons. The lumber quality has dropped off also. Some crews frame up with #12 nails now, where #16 used to be the standard. With newer lumber #16 nails split the studs and boards to pieces.

[Bubba 460]

9 minutes ago, Mobasser said:

What I've read, is that before circular saws were invented, there was always a cut man, and on big homes probably two. They worked out front cutting by hand on sawhorses, getting measurements from a carpenter on the floor of the house. This alone would have been a hard job. A laborer then packed up the cut boards to nail drivers, who put things together.                                  The cut men were very skilled. Cutting hips, jacks, and straight rafters by hand. A slow process. Now, it's all about speed. Quality doesn't seem to.matter anymore.

Not to mention the lumber and bricks were hauled by horses and wagons. The lumber quality has dropped off also. Some crews frame up with #12 nails now, where #16 used to be the standard. With newer lumber #16 nails split the studs and boards to pieces.

 

 

I would have loved to have watched this old house being built. Even though it was not a "fancy" house It certainly was not a cheap one either. Hand forged nails, lots of joint work, original window frames where jointed and pegged with wooden dowels (we had to replace the old ripply, bubbled glass windows and frames with modern ones). Horse hair plaster, most of it holding up. Heart of pine 6" flooring, 12 X 6 joist (who lifted those up there??... yes, a lot of hard, slow work. Photo of original stairs, lots of wear on those old steps. Look how they mirrored the hand rail into the opposite wall. It run up to the landing and then reversed up the other way to the second floor.

[Catt]

45 minutes ago, Mobasser said:

The cut men were very skilled. Cutting hips, jacks, and straight rafters by hand.

 

If the cut man was good he didn't need to get measurements from anyone. He either added or subtracted to the length of the previous cut.

 

One of my first jobs was building tees, corners, window, & door frames. I counted how many of each was needed from the blueprint & built them before the slab was even dry.

 

My dad & uncles were the first crew around here to frame a whole wall on the ground & stand it up. This way the top & bottom plate was nailed without toe nailing.

 

Another thing I did was pull a string line on each wall & straighten it out. Something no one does to day!

 

I also walked the top plate with a sledgehammer appling a couple good smacks over each stud tighting everything up.

[DaubsNU1]

My 80 year old Dad started back in the 50's when one crew built houses from the ground up.  He knows how to layout a foundation, block, frame, drywall, plumbing, electrical, roof, etc. In 1966 they split up his crew...he took a few guys and started his own business as a finish carpenter. He finally fully retired about 8 years ago. 

 

He knows his stuff, and had taught me much through the years.  

 

We always take him along when looking at purchasing a house...there have been a few as we were pulling in the driveway, he said, "just turn around and leave...see the roof-line...NOPE!"

 

There is a lot of crap out there...but still examples of quality craftsmanship can be found. 

 

 

[J Francho]

@Catt I thought that was how it was done, but I only learned from YouTube, and doing some of my own improvements.  My lst house was from 1952 and built like a brick ..... . The "new" house I just bought was built in 1940, and while some of it is a little more primitive, the craftsmanship is amazing.  While being about a decade out from the craftsman movement in architecture, many of the techniques were still being employed.  Pretty cool to see how it's held up all these years.  

 

@Bubba 460 that staircase is amazing.  I've got something kind of similar, and though not as tall or ornate, it's still 16 steps to the second floor.  I took me a few weeks figure out where that "extra" effort was coming from  - the three extra steps, lol.

[Mobasser]

11 minutes ago, Catt said:

 

If the cut man was good he didn't need to get measurements from anyone. He either added or subtracted to the length of the previous cut.

 

One of my first jobs was building tees, corners, window, & door frames. I counted how many of each was needed from the blueprint & built them before the slab was even dry.

 

My dad & uncles were the first crew around here to frame a whole wall on the ground & stand it up. This way the top & bottom plate was nailed without toe nailing.

 

Another thing I did was pull a string line on each wall & straighten it out. Something no one does to day!

 

I also walked the top plate with a sledgehammer appling a couple good smacks over each stud tighting everything up.

Good way to build Catt. We used to use a string line on the walls also. If they needed drawn in, I'd nail a 2x4 to the plate, and to a floor joist. Then cut a short one, to use under that brace, pulling on it to draw in the wall. A common newbie thing was I'd see guys staddling the longer brace. A big no no! When I started, we built the walls on the floor, and sheeted them also, putting in Windows if we could also. I agree about getting all the outside walls lined up straight. If you don't do this, your ceiling joist, and rafters are way off. You can't shoot enouph nails to correct that problem.

 I might also mention, I cut and finished a good many stairways. I was taught that the perfect stairway is 7" riser, and 11" step, because most men have a shoe size of around 10". A 12" step can work well also. It never works out to be a perfect 7" or 11". It's always a fractional measurement. You won't find this in any new house. It's always the top or bottom step that are off, sometimes by 1/2" . It should never be more than 1/4" or less. Anymore is a trip hazard.

[Mobasser]

14 minutes ago, J Francho said:

@Catt I thought that was how it was done, but I only learned from YouTube, and doing some of my own improvements.  My lst house was from 1952 and built like a brick ..... . The "new" house I just bought was built in 1940, and while some of it is a little more primitive, the craftsmanship is amazing.  While being about a decade out from the craftsman movement in architecture, many of the techniques were still being employed.  Pretty cool to see how it's held up all these years.  

 

@Bubba 460 that staircase is amazing.  I've got something kind of similar, and though not as tall or ornate, it's still 16 steps to the second floor.  I took me a few weeks figure out where that "extra" effort was coming from  - the three extra steps, lol.

J Francho, I've always liked the Craftsman style houses. Clean lines, and all are slightly different. We have many in KC MO, as well as smaller towns around here.

[Hammer 4]

I can agree  that today, there's some very shoddy work done. When I was working, when all the framing was completed, I printed and signed my name on a stud with a permanent marker.

As for inspectors, when I was working for a contractor, before starting my own biz, he had a roofing inspector come by to look at a rather large and expensive home we were building. My boss went to the liquor store, bought a case of beer, and the 2 of them sat down at 10 am drank a few beers and without even looking at the roof, he signed it off, sorry state of affairs..

To all you carpenters/contractors...Cheers.  

[Catt]

While we seldom did the electrical or plumbing it was my job to drill holes though plates/studs & holes for door knobs with a brace & bit.

 

Two of dad's cousins were painters & painted the entire house with a 6" paint brush.

 

Dad's first high dollar investment in a power tool was a Shopsmith table saw with a planer, bandsaw, & lathe attachments.

 

[Bankbeater]

A few years back some kids threw a fairly large rock through our front window and took out the wooden single window sash that is original to the house.  

My wife and I both like the wood more than the modern ones that to me look like plastic. We called the insurance to get the window repaired, and we were shocked after they came out and looked at it.

They said it would take 4 to 5 months to get the window repaired because there was no one in the area that had the wood working skills to build a new sash.

Seeing the new houses that are being built around me I can believe it.

[J Francho]

2 hours ago, Mobasser said:

J Francho, I've always liked the Craftsman style houses. Clean lines, and all are slightly different. We have many in KC MO, as well as smaller towns around here.

Technically, this is basically a standard colonial styled in a Tudor Revival, and not a craftsman, but many of the techniques are in there. The bay window goes all the way to the basement. The supports for the vaulted roof sections for the attic stairwell is silly over built. I would say about the only thing I'll be replacing is the 1.5" galvanized drains to 2" PVC and adding vented P-traps to the wash basin and kitchen sink. 
 

 

[TnRiver46]

I rented this from 2010-2015………… if a carpenter walked in there they would have fainted. If you dropped a tennis ball onto the floor it would roll of into a corner rapidly 

 

[MN Fisher]

3 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I rented this from 2010-2015………… if a carpenter walked in there they would have fainted. If you dropped a tennis ball onto the floor it would roll of into a corner rapidly 

[slonezp]

8 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I rented this from 2010-2015………… if a carpenter walked in there they would have fainted. If you dropped a tennis ball onto the floor it would roll of into a corner rapidly 

 

Yep, you're from Tennessee. 

[TnRiver46]

5 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

It was a crazy place, my landlord collected log cabins that he found across the country, disassembled them, and put them back together on 160 acres . They were all crazy in their own way. It was a deep dark holler, I nearly froze to death living down in there 

[Mobasser]

Just now, TnRiver46 said:

It was a crazy place, my landlord collected log cabins that be found across the country, disassembled them, and put them back together on 160 acres . They were all crazy in their own way. It was a deep dark holler, I nearly froze to death living down in there 

I was just about to ask you if it was cold in there. I figured it was. But, you had privacy and dish TV. 

Just now, TnRiver46 said:

It was a crazy place, my landlord collected log cabins that be found across the country, disassembled them, and put them back together on 160 acres . They were all crazy in their own way. It was a deep dark holler, I nearly froze to death living down in there 

I was just about to ask you if it was cold in there. I figured it was. But, you had privacy and dish TV. 

I figured it was cold in there. But, you had privacy and Dish TV!