Brakes or Magnets?

[papajoe222]

Is it a misconception that reels with magnetic anti-backlash systems work primarily at the end of a cast and those that use a braking system do so at the beginning?  It would appear to me that the faster the spool spins, at the beginning of the cast, either system would be at it's peak benefit.  Am I wrong? All of my Daiwas use magnets and I love my Daiwas, but I find that when I do back-lash it's almost always early in the cast before my thumb comes into play.  I have a Lew's that combines both systems that I rarely have an issue with, but then again, it doesn't get used on a regular basis so it's difficult to determine if the combination  system is a better fit for me. 

[MN Fisher]

5 minutes ago, papajoe222 said:

I have a Lew's that combines both systems that I rarely have an issue with, but then again, it doesn't get used on a regular basis so it's difficult to determine if the combination  system is a better fit for me. 

I've noticed the same thing with my Patriarch - which is also a dual-brake reel. It backlashes less often, and only when I do something 'stupid' when casting with it.

 

Other than that reel, I have either standard magnetic (my other Pfluegers) or Magforce (pair of Fuegos). The Magforce does do a better job than standard magnetic, but I can still bird's nest with the best of them if I don't pay attention to the settings.

[bulldog1935]

Once again, here's the primer I wrote on the 3 types of backlash and 4 types of brakes

Linear mag does its best work on mid-cast wind backlash.  

Start-up and finish-cast are both different.  

 

Jun Sonada has a very good description of brakes that includes brake load curves v. spool speed.  

 

I had the Lew's dual-brake on my Custom Inshore.  I gave that reel to a friend - it's a good learning tool with big weights.  But where I wanted it in inshore ML, the mass and inertia of the brake system wasn't the best for casting 1/8 oz.  

[papajoe222]

Great info, Bulldog.  I knew memory didn't fail me, but as I get older I question it more and more.  I don't plan on getting rid of my Daiwas, but I'm looking for another cranking reel and that is the presentation I most often experience back-lashes.  Thanks

[Bankc]

Both magnetic and centrifugal are forms of brakes.  It used to be true that magnetic brakes applied an equal amount of force during the whole cast.  This resulted in more braking near the end of the cast, versus a centrifugal brake, because a centrifugal brake relies on the speed of the reel's rotation to apply the force.  The faster the reel spins, the more force.

 

These days, however, most magnetic braking systems don't use a ferrous metal (a metal that a magnet will stick to) on the side of the spool.  So the effect changes.  They now typically use non-ferrous metals for the sides of the spool (like aluminum) and stronger magnets in the brakes.  This creates a braking force by apply eddy currents into the metal.  The level of the eddy currents is proportional to the speed of the spool.  So now, most magnetic brakes also generate their braking force in proportion to the speed of the spool's spin.  

 

A lot of Daiwa reels now use an Air Brake or Magforce Z Brake, which has a rotor that moves outwards, closer towards the magnets as the spool spins faster, and retracts it as the spool slows down.  This, in combination with the eddy currents makes the braking power more extreme in proportion to the reel's speed, because the closer to the magnet is to the surface it's acting against, the stronger it's forces.    

[MAN]

1 hour ago, Bankc said:

These days, however, most magnetic braking systems don't use a ferrous metal (a metal that a magnet will stick to) on the side of the spool.  So the effect changes.  They now typically use non-ferrous metals for the sides of the spool (like aluminum) and stronger magnets in the brakes.  This creates a braking force by apply eddy currents into the metal.  The level of the eddy currents is proportional to the speed of the spool.  So now, most magnetic brakes also generate their braking force in proportion to the speed of the spool's spin.  

 

My reels with aluminum spools have a very thin magnetized coating on the left side of the spool to interact with the brakes. Not quite sure if that the same thing you are describing or different? 

[bulldog1935]

2 hours ago, MAN said:

My reels with aluminum spools have a very thin magnetized coating on the left side of the spool to interact with the brakes. Not quite sure if that the same thing you are describing or different? 

 

All conductive metals produce Lenz effect when moving close to magnets - if you google Lenz Effect, you'll see some good examples.  

[MAN]

37 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

 

All conductive metals produce Lenz effect when moving close to magnets - if you google Lenz Effect, you'll see some good examples.  

Are you saying the magnetic coating is obsolete as it would still interact via the Lenz Effect? 

[bulldog1935]

I don't know anything about magnetic coating, just know that a magnet close to any moving conductive metal has a brake effect - even a beer can.  

 

[Capt No Fish]

7 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

Once again, here's the primer I wrote on the 3 types of backlash and 4 types of brakes

Linear mag does its best work on mid-cast wind backlash.  

Start-up and finish-cast are both different.  

 

Jun Sonada has a very good description of brakes that includes brake load curves v. spool speed.  

 

I had the Lew's dual-brake on my Custom Inshore.  I gave that reel to a friend - it's a good learning tool with big weights.  But where I wanted it in inshore ML, the mass and inertia of the brake system wasn't the best for casting 1/8 oz.  

 

 

I am so glad that I asked this question because it gave bulldog1935 a reason to write a primer and get to  reuse his answer to me over and over again, lol!

 

Thanks again bulldog1935,  I have been in much better shape ever since.

[JustJames]

Early backlash can happen with any brake type reels. Unless you set the brake and tension to the point of super control. It is really the way you cast and thumb experience to control this type of backlash. The type reel that might help you would be DC reel and Daiwa SV reel but of course you loose some distance.

 

[Bankc]

3 hours ago, MAN said:

Are you saying the magnetic coating is obsolete as it would still interact via the Lenz Effect? 

The magnetic coating will change the relationship the spool's speed has on the breaking effect, giving it more braking at slower speeds (the end of the cast).  So the coating might be there to control the contour of the brake's profile.  So while it would still interact without the coating, but the coating may still serve a purpose.  

 

 

[Boomstick]

I believe the real question here is which type of brake, centrifugal or magnetic, and there is no right or wrong answer. Most of my reels are magnetic, they work well and I like them better for skipping and pitching and target casting. Centrifugal brakes are better for casting distance because they work by serving as a maximum speed limiter. My only reel with centifugal brakes is a dual braked Pflueger Patriarch which I use for poppers and jerkbaits and it does well casting lighter poppers.

[Log Catcher]

I have always liked centrifugal brakes over magnetic. I have some Lews reels that have both. The magnetic brakes seemed to be so weak I felt like they weren't doing anything so I keep them turned off and don't even use them.

[bulldog1935]

What you gents are describing is exactly true casting heavy weights.  

Heavy weights don't need mag brakes (except Daiwa SV behaves like centrifugal at spool start).  

 

Light weights don't need centrifugal brakes for start-up, and where linear mag works best at mid cast is what light weights need.  

 

I cast 2 g to over 120' on baitcaster.  

 

Both Tournament Pro (centrifugal) and Super Duty (mag) side by side (actually on the water the same day), Super Duty will cast 1/8-oz 50% farther than Tournament Pro, including adjusting both brakes to backlash.  

[Bankc]

13 hours ago, Log Catcher said:

I have always liked centrifugal brakes over magnetic. I have some Lews reels that have both. The magnetic brakes seemed to be so weak I felt like they weren't doing anything so I keep them turned off and don't even use them.

In reels with dual brakes, I tend to set the centrifugal brake for the bait and line, and the magnetic for the wind.  I hate having to open up a centrifugal reel when casting one direction, with the wind, and then reopening to readjust the brakes when turning around and casting back into the wind.  That, and centrifugal brakes die down once the bait slows in the air, so you can still get a bit of backlash casting into the wind.  Adjusting the magnetic brakes makes this a lot easier, which is why I won't own a reel without externally adjustable brakes.  Also, it's really windy in central OK, so it's probably more of an issue for me than most people.  

 

Sure, you can thumb it, and I still use some thumb while casting in heavy wind.  But I find the magnetic brakes work well on a given day once you've figure out how to play with them.  So I can say 2 O'clock is with the wind, 7 O'clock is into the wind, and 11 O'clock is perpendicular to the wind, and that saves me a lot of headache.

[bulldog1935]

@Bankc is exactly correct about how to use the two brake systems.  

[Log Catcher]

3 hours ago, Bankc said:

In reels with dual brakes, I tend to set the centrifugal brake for the bait and line, and the magnetic for the wind.  I hate having to open up a centrifugal reel when casting one direction, with the wind, and then reopening to readjust the brakes when turning around and casting back into the wind.  That, and centrifugal brakes die down once the bait slows in the air, so you can still get a bit of backlash casting into the wind.  Adjusting the magnetic brakes makes this a lot easier, which is why I won't own a reel without externally adjustable brakes.  Also, it's really windy in central OK, so it's probably more of an issue for me than most people.  

 

Sure, you can thumb it, and I still use some thumb while casting in heavy wind.  But I find the magnetic brakes work well on a given day once you've figure out how to play with them.  So I can say 2 O'clock is with the wind, 7 O'clock is into the wind, and 11 O'clock is perpendicular to the wind, and that saves me a lot of headache.

I always found it easier to adjust the spool tension knob instead  of playing around with brake adjustments.

[Boomstick]

18 hours ago, Log Catcher said:

The magnetic brakes seemed to be so weak I felt like they weren't doing anything so I keep them turned off and don't even use them.

Ever tried a Daiwa with the Magforce Z? Sometimes I agree with you, but the Magforce Z is quite effective.

4 hours ago, Bankc said:

In reels with dual brakes, I tend to set the centrifugal brake for the bait and line, and the magnetic for the wind.

Pretty much exactly what I do. I usually use 4 pins in on any centrifugal braking system whether it has 4 or 6, and then if it's a dual brake I leave that at or near zero and turn it up to compensate for wind conditions.

[Log Catcher]

On 8/24/2021 at 2:22 PM, Boomstick said:

Ever tried a Daiwa with the Magforce Z? Sometimes I agree with you, but the Magforce Z is quite effective.

Pretty much exactly what I do. I usually use 4 pins in on any centrifugal braking system whether it has 4 or 6, and then if it's a dual brake I leave that at or near zero and turn it up to compensate for wind conditions.

The only Daiwa reels I own are spinning reels. I would rather have the centrifugal brakes on a baitcaster. I never wanted a reel that only had magnetic brakes.

[CrankFate]

I tend to prefer mechanical brakes. Mags are more difficult to cast with. I always think that the main reason a lot of people complain about casting reels is that they are starting out with only mags. I think it’s best to start with mechanical brakes and 1-2oz weights on a 7’ or longer rod and then work your way down. Then as you go down, get into the mag only reels.

[Boomstick]

4 hours ago, Log Catcher said:

The only Daiwa reels I own are spinning reels. I would rather have the centrifugal brakes on a baitcaster. I never wanted a reel that only had magnetic brakes.

If you get the chance to try one, it's worth it. They're quite effective.

[Hammer 4]

If I could only have one or the other, I'm going with brakes. They just seem to work better for me vs magnets. 

[Lmsmbassaddict]

 

I generally prefer centrifugal brakes but daiwas magforce brakes are amazing too. I find I get more consistent braking when using reels that have one or the other versus having both. Just an observation I've made over the years.

 

 

 

 

[bulldog1935]

The newer generation of magforce is called SV, and per Jun Sonada, the SV magnets are stronger than older magforce.  SV also allows use of thinner, lighter brake rotors.