spin vs BFS

[bulldog1935]

@Jonas Staggs

BFS = bait finesse system - it's a reel, it's a baitcast reel made to fish light lines and cast light weights.  

Since the Japanese coined the term, it's only fair for them to define it.  

What makes it a system is the shallow lightweight spool, low-inertia bearings, and brake system tuned to cast light lures, and even better, an extreme lure weight range.  

 

The rods cover a dozen niches, from stream to offshore XUL jigging - bass are in there, also, and so is shore light game.  

The trout rods are going to come closest to traditional American UL - short rods with narrow lure weight range and para taper.  If I take it to the copystand, I can give you great example Harnell UL rods from my 1960 catalog.  

I fish bass and shore light game (inshore), and having rods designated to cast 2 to 20 g and protect light lines,  it's nice to have a BFS reel that can match those ranges.  

 

 

Every shore has its threadlining tradition, XUL, finesse, progressive taper rods based on fly rod tapers.  The rods are capable of an extreme lure weight range, light tip, fast mid and stout butt for turning big fish -  the reels to match them should be capable of the same extreme lure weight range.  The tradition is certainly spinning reels (Atlantic salmon in Scotland), but now we have baitcasters capable of the same and even better - BFS - bait (baitcast reel) finesse system.  

That said, I have a prewar baitcaster designed and capable of fishing 1/8 oz.  

 

You can call this threadlining, XUL, finesse spinning, shore light game, but you can't call it BFS, because it uses a spinning reel and not a BFS reel.  

 

[redmeansdistortion]

34 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

Every shore has its threadlining tradition, XUL, finesse, progressive taper rods based on fly rod tapers.  The rods are capable of an extreme lure weight range, light tip, fast mid and stout butt for turning big fish -  the reels to match them should be capable of the same extreme lure weight range.  The tradition is certainly spinning reels (Atlantic salmon in Scotland), but now we have baitcasters capable of the same and even better - BFS - bait (baitcast reel) finesse system.  

Check out Gray Wolf Rods, Shane typically does fly rods but also does some really high end glass BFS and spinning rods which are designed for fish such as Atlantics and steelhead, both of which are in the Great Lakes and tributaries.  Shane's rods are pure artistry https://www.graywolfrods.com/  The rods don't come cheap.  The last 7' BFS rod he had on his site was marked at $550.

[bulldog1935]

I know Shane, bro - FFR is pretty much his home base.  

Some UL Glass Bait casters | Rod Photos | Fiberglass Flyrodders

[redmeansdistortion]

1 minute ago, bulldog1935 said:

I know Shane, bro - FFR is pretty much his home base.  

Some UL Glass Bait casters | Rod Photos | Fiberglass Flyrodders

I had an idea you did, but man does he build some nice looking stuff.  Have you tried one of his rods?  I'd like to give one a shot.

[bulldog1935]

I really haven't, because I am so fly rod rich, and soaked up venerable glass from the early ebay days.  

I paid $15 for a Heddon Pal Pro Weight 8381, which I sold to Cameron Mortensen (Fiberglass Manifesto) for his first glass rod.  Could sell that rod for $250 in today's market.  

I was a Fisher afficionado even before I returned to glass, Phillipson, Harnell, Lami (hen's tooth 605). Vince Cummings Water Witch.  

So I just haven't ordered new glass, with the exception of a couple of Japanese noir classics - Quiet Loop and Izch (phonetic Issac).  

I did sell the Quiet Loop VF805, but the Izch PBEX8667 S-glass is my go-to inshore fly rod.  

[Jonas Staggs]

5 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

@Jonas Staggs

BFS = bait finesse system - it's a reel, it's a baitcast reel made to fish light lines and cast light weights.  

Since the Japanese coined the term, it's only fair for them to define it.  

What makes it a system is the shallow lightweight spool, low-inertia bearings, and brake system tuned to cast light lures, and even better, an extreme lure weight range.  

 

The rods cover a dozen niches, from stream to offshore XUL jigging - bass are in there, also, and so is shore light game.  

The trout rods are going to come closest to traditional American UL - short rods with narrow lure weight range and para taper.  If I take it to the copystand, I can give you great example Harnell UL rods from my 1960 catalog.  

I fish bass and shore light game (inshore), and having rods designated to cast 2 to 20 g and protect light lines,  it's nice to have a BFS reel that can match those ranges.  

 

 

Every shore has its threadlining tradition, XUL, finesse, progressive taper rods based on fly rod tapers.  The rods are capable of an extreme lure weight range, light tip, fast mid and stout butt for turning big fish -  the reels to match them should be capable of the same extreme lure weight range.  The tradition is certainly spinning reels (Atlantic salmon in Scotland), but now we have baitcasters capable of the same and even better - BFS - bait (baitcast reel) finesse system.  

That said, I have a prewar baitcaster designed and capable of fishing 1/8 oz.  

 

You can call this threadlining, XUL, finesse spinning, shore light game, but you can't call it BFS, because it uses a spinning reel and not a BFS reel.  

 

 

 

I think you misinterpreted my statement. I am aware that a spin reel on whatever power rod, UL or what not, is not a BFS setup. What I was trying to say is that while everyone says BFS is ultralight. I feel like most BFS setups would the equivalent to a Light action spin rod setup performance wise. That was really my goal with the BFS thing as well. Im not trying to go UL with it. a Light action setup and 1/16th oz at the lightest, or weightless soft plastics. But i am not interested in throwing trout magnets from a BFS setup even thought it can be done.

 

You seem to be quite knowledgeable in BFS as well as fishing in general. Alot of the information you have given in this thread is new to me.

 

I came across a okuma kokanne 7' Light action casting rod. I believe this is a trout rod like your talking about. Wonder if that would pair good with my zephyr reel. I almost grabbed it but decided not too.

[redmeansdistortion]

3 hours ago, Jonas Staggs said:

I came across a okuma kokanne 7' Light action casting rod. I believe this is a trout rod like your talking about. Wonder if that would pair good with my zephyr reel. I almost grabbed it but decided not too.

I have that rod in 7'6", one of the first rods I bought when getting into BFS a couple of years back.  It's a pretty decent rod but it is a moderate , almost slow action, with a deep parabolic bend.  I really have no complaints about it other than I find it too long for the type of fishing I usually do, which involves a lot of bushwhacking through the undergrowth.  It's a good rod for fishing spoons and spinners or floating bait, but for something like jigs and cranks, you will want something faster.  I think for a better all around budget oriented rod on your end, the Major Craft Benkei 6'7" L would be worth a look.  It runs right around $100.

[billmac]

I haven't used BFS, mainly because I'm cheap.  But I've always hated spinning reels.  I have two rigged up in my boat and I use them frequently. I still hate them.  I've caught lots of fish on them. I still hate them.  I find them awkward to use, awkward to cast, awkward to reel.  I'll have to give the BFS thing a try.

[bulldog1935]

@Jonas Staggs

No question my shore light game rods are the wrong choice for bass fishing, while the kokanee rods are made for trolling, they might work for shore light game.  

A good BFS bass rod is still progressive taper to cast those light-end lures, it's shorter and much faster taper - hard to recognize the fly rod derivation - the exact opposite taper from traditional American UL.  

@redmeansdistortion is leading you in the exact right direction with the Major Craft Benkei 67L. 

 

You don't want to spring for my Valleyhill, but this one rod covers enough bass fishing range to be a single bass rod for me on kayak

 

paraphrased, to you, BFS equates to the one niche rod you want for it

When you're buying the parts from Japan Tackle to turn an all-purpose Daiwa, Shimano or Abu into a BFS reel, Jun repeats as he rates each spool.  

You can cast over 2 g

You can cast over 3 g

You can cast over 4 g

You can cast over 5 g

 

You don't lose anything by having the ability to cast lighter lures.  What you gain is distance and cast reliability with whatever you want to cast.  

I don't have to fish my BFS-mod Zillion for 1/8 oz in salt ML, but It's A Hoot. 

All these reels have the original deep spools I can swap in for mono.  

The first thing I did was build a surf BFS reel.  It casts all the lures I'd ever want to fish in the surf, and absolutely spoils you for casting fun.  

 

 

[redmeansdistortion]

9 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

kokanee rods are made for trolling

Exactly, and their slower action is required due to Kokes having paper thin mouths.  Something faster action will rip the hook right out.

[redmeansdistortion]

One rod I thoroughly enjoy is the Daiwa Bass X 642LB 1/16-3/8, excellent backbone, lightweight, and can be found anywhere from $80 to $100 on the various Japanese sites.  I paid $75 for mine last year when Digitaka was having a sale.  It's my go-to rod when fishing the flats of Lake St Clair for smallies.

 

https://www.digitaka.com/item/4/6/5/4960652222464

 

https://www.daiwa.com/jp/fishing/item/rod/bass_rd/19bass_x/index.html

 

 

[desmobob]

2 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

One rod I thoroughly enjoy is the Daiwa Bass X 642LB 1/16-3/8, excellent backbone, lightweight, and can be found anywhere from $80 to $100 on the various Japanese sites.  I paid $75 for mine last year when Digitaka was having a sale.  It's my go-to rod when fishing the flats of Lake St Clair for smallies.

 

https://www.digitaka.com/item/4/6/5/4960652222464

 

https://www.daiwa.com/jp/fishing/item/rod/bass_rd/19bass_x/index.html

 

 

 

Does it really load/cast with 1/16 comfortably?  I also had my eye on the 682LB.  

Do you happen to also have a Tsurinoya ProFlex II UL for comparison?  

 

Thanks,

Bob

 

 

[waymont]

On 8/12/2021 at 1:07 AM, Jonas Staggs said:

3) rod: I have the bfs reel on a 6'6" M action rod. the rod is probably too heavy for what its designed for. I am looking at grabbing the matching zephyr rod, if any rod should be a good match for the reel. it should be that one. 

 

That's an unbalanced rig right there. Medium is way too heavy. That would be your biggest issue.

[desmobob]

On 8/14/2021 at 5:53 PM, QED said:

These stock (except the PX TR has a steez handle) reels work fine for ultralight or BFS casting.  Only one purports to be directed to BFS use.

 

I'd guess most folks venturing into BFS are looking for something that works out-of-the-box.

 

You can certainly add the Daiwa 20 Alphas Air TW to the list of out-of-the-box BFS reels.  It has the ability to cast down to 1g. comfortably.  Its ability to cast very light lures easily is surprising... it feels like you're casting normal baits on a normal baitcasting rig.

 

Works great for trout/UL style (can those be grouped together?) BFS on something like a Kuying Teton 602UL and bass style BFS on something like a Major Craft Volkey VKC-68L or Tsurinoya Pro Flex II C632UL.

 

 

 

 

[Jonas Staggs]

heres what kastking says about their zephyr rod. has anyone used it? I was looking at grabbing the longest one

 

1 minute ago, desmobob said:

'd guess most folks venturing into BFS are looking for something that works out-of-the-box.

 

that would be me. im totally lost about what you guys are talking about with the ziggywog xp3 XLF or what not 

[bulldog1935]

@Jonas Staggs - those look pretty perfect - just pick your length, and remember 1/4 oz (plus plastic body) would be your max lure weight. 

 

@waymont - notice my Valleyhill ROC-67MMM above is medium, all-range BFS, 1/16 to 5/8 

 

 

[desmobob]

30 minutes ago, Jonas Staggs said:

heres what kastking says about their zephyr rod. has anyone used it? I was looking at grabbing the longest one

 

 

that would be me. im totally lost about what you guys are talking about with the ziggywog xp3 XLF or what not 

 

I haven't tried one.

 

As has been mentioned, there is a difference between a BFS "trout" rod and BFS "bass" rod.  Both may list a similar lure weight range but the bass rod will have a lot more reserve power that you'll need if you target larger fish.  The bass rods are generally better for fishing bottom-contact baits, too.

 

Without having any more information, I'd guess (and a WAG, at that) that these rods, listed as "UL" power, might be more along the lines of trout rods...  maybe not.   

 

Also, no-name guides and reel seat...   For another thirty bucks you can get a rod with good Fuji components.

[Jonas Staggs]

1 minute ago, desmobob said:

 

I haven't tried one.

 

As has been mentioned, there is a difference between a BFS "trout" rod and BFS "bass" rod.  Both may list a similar lure weight range but the bass rod will have a lot more reserve power that you'll need if you target larger fish.  The bass rods are generally better for fishing bottom-contact baits, too.

 

Without having any more information, I'd guess (and a WAG, at that) that these rods, listed as "UL" power, might be more along the lines of trout rods...  maybe not.

 

I was thinking they might be a little more stronger, since they are rated all the way up to 1/4 oz. Like what kind of UL goes up to 1/4 oz. thats pretty d**n heavy. I wouldnt consider that UL, more like L.

 

My nicest UL setup is a quantum 6'6" rated 1/64-1/8

 

man all this talk off fishing makes me want to go. I havent fished in almost 3 weeks now!

[waymont]

41 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

notice my Valleyhill ROC-67MMM above is medium, all-range BFS, 1/16 to 5/8 

 

Is that the rod the OP is using? He didn't specify. If it's a standard medium power it would be too heavy for what he is expecting.

[redmeansdistortion]

38 minutes ago, Jonas Staggs said:

man all this talk off fishing makes me want to go. I havent fished in almost 3 weeks now!

That's almost like taking 3 weeks off of church.  Go shed some line my brother!

[desmobob]

By all means, get out there and wet a line!

 

And take my posts with a grain of salt.  I'm fairly new to BFS.  The folks with most experience in it have had, by necessity, lots of experience dealing with the Japanese Domestic Market and know the ins and outs of it, as well as being knowledgeable in customizing available equipment to make it optimal for BFS.

 

As a BFS newbie, most of my experience is with trying to round up some affordable gear that's somewhat easily obtainable and works well out of the box.  It appears that BFS is gaining popularity and it might get a lot easier for folks to wade in and give it a try.

 

I hope so... it's a blast!

[redmeansdistortion]

48 minutes ago, desmobob said:

As a BFS newbie, most of my experience is with trying to round up some affordable gear that's somewhat easily obtainable and works well out of the box.  It appears that BFS is gaining popularity and it might get a lot easier for folks to wade in and give it a try.

I'm hoping with the release of the Curado BFS, it will motivate the likes of Daiwa, Abu, and Lew's to put out competing models on the US market.  The Curado BFS is a fine reel and at that price point, there's a lot to love.  If I were to be getting into BFS today, it's what I would choose since it's readily available domestically and doesn't carry the price tag of its JDM counterparts.  When I first got into BFS, it was either spend $300+ on a JDM reel or under $100 on a CDM reel with nothing in the middle.  The Curado BFS effectively fills in the gap between them.  I'm curious to see what models from other manufacturers we will see in the future.  Will Daiwa bring the Alphas to the US market or resurrect the Pixy name?  Will Abu bring its Ultracast BF8 to the states?  I sure hope so.

[bulldog1935]

41 minutes ago, redmeansdistortion said:

I'm hoping with the release of the Curado BFS, it will motivate the likes of Daiwa, Abu, and Lew's to put out competing models on the US market.  The Curado BFS is a fine reel and at that price point, there's a lot to love.  If I were to be getting into BFS today, it's what I would choose since it's readily available domestically and doesn't carry the price tag of its JDM counterparts.  When I first got into BFS, it was either spend $300+ on a JDM reel or under $100 on a CDM reel with nothing in the middle.  The Curado BFS effectively fills in the gap between them.  I'm curious to see what models from other manufacturers we will see in the future.  Will Daiwa bring the Alphas to the US market or resurrect the Pixy name?  Will Abu bring its Ultracast BF8 to the states?  I sure hope so.

 

We already mentioned FFR forum on this thread.  

Many people there are buying Curado, because they're ready-to-go BFS and available here in USM.  

 

@waymont -  well, no, I'm not loaning that rod to anybody.  But I have another MM rod that will cast and fish 1/8 oz as well as any ML, even though it's only rated down to 1/4 oz

It's also amazing how well Super Duty casts and fishes 1/8 - it will out-cast stock Daiwa Boost SV spool on Zillion and Steez, and Daiwa states that spool is 1/8-oz-capable.  

[JustJames]

You got all and maybe more than enough info here. Now once you overcome with all the BFS term and specifications. And if you want to try your reel on Finesse fishing not BFS. Find some time in the morning or late evening and come visit me. My day off is still the same. I cannot spend a lot of time just hour or two. Just bring your reel and you can try my rods. Weightless plastic should work pretty good around your city/community ponds. Don’t buy that rod yet, I have 6’4 Majorcraft speedstyle UL for you to try. 

[desmobob]

It's frustrating that there is such a great selection of BFS rods already out there, but not imported to the USA.  They're still easy to get but it's probably harder or impossible to find reviews, tests, and the other stuff we might like to read before making a purchase.

 

I just ordered a Daiwa Bass-X 682LB Y2 from Digitaka.  6'8" L power, Lure rating:  1.8g - 11g. (1/16 - 3/8 oz.) 

 

Daiwa has an interesting chart showing the Bass-X rods and their recommended uses, but it's Greek to me, so to speak...

...just past half-way down the page, here.

 

I should have it in a week or so.  I'll post my impressions.