Why is it?

[DitchPanda]

Was talking to a buddy at work a while back and he was commenting on how hard it is to find people that are worth a crap. Then he posed a funny question to me...Why is it that a thing that's a tool is priceless but a person that's a tool is worthless? Kind of a funny observation

[Bubba 460]

Well all I have to say about that is what I know...

 

[J Francho]

Maybe some of those companies should not expect a cordless impact driver for price of a hammer.

[Bubba 460]

2 hours ago, J Francho said:

Maybe some of those companies should not expect a cordless impact driver for price of a hammer.

 

Way back when I was framing houses there were no nail guns, you used a long quality hammer and swung it like you meant business. Even back in the late 60's a good hammer like a 22oz Vaughn cost like $35.00, that was more than a days pay back then. Today an equal hammer would run about $50+   Not many can really handle a hammer today like carpenters back then, it's mostly all nail-guns now. Although maybe I was not a  cordless impact driver, I sure could swat nails and I'm talking ALL day long.

[jimmyjoe]

1 hour ago, DitchPanda said:

Why is it that a thing that's a tool is priceless but a person that's a tool is worthless? Kind of a funny observation

 

   Ego.                jj

[TnRiver46]

55 minutes ago, Bubba 460 said:

 

Way back when I was framing houses there were no nail guns, you used a long quality hammer and swung it like you meant business. Even back in the late 60's a good hammer like a 22oz Vaughn cost like $35.00, that was more than a days pay back then. Today and equal hammer would run about $50+   Not many can really handle a hammer today like carpenters back then, it's mostly all nail-guns now. Although maybe I was not a  cordless impact driver, I sure could swat nails and I'm talking ALL day long.

Yeah and now when you go to take anything apart, even a baseboard, there’s like 600 nails in it. Guys go crazy with those pneumatic nailers, pop pop pop pop pop. It must be addictive 

[DitchPanda]

1 hour ago, Bubba 460 said:

Well all I have to say about that is what I know...

 

Some truth in that but on the flipside how many 20 year olds can change a flat tire? Or oil?

 

1 hour ago, J Francho said:

Maybe some of those companies should not expect a cordless impact driver for price of a hammer.

Yep..my same buddy also says if you hire potatoes you get a control room full of potatoes. They have been playing hardball with wages..not willing to pay people what they deserve. Several people have walked the past six months and management acts like they don't get why people are ticked, morale is low and guys are walking out. My philosophy has changed to instead of killing myself for the plant ill just do what they pay me for. They say the wage is competitive well so is my effort.

[moguy1973]

1 hour ago, Bubba 460 said:

Well all I have to say about that is what I know...

 

Well, kids now a days eat Tide Pods.  I think mud might be a little better for you.

[gunsinger]

We live in an age where kids grew up entitled.  Everyone gets a participation trophy and it's a crime to spank your child.  Christian values are spit upon.  The net result?  A weaker America.

[Jigfishn10]

26 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Yeah and now when you go to take anything apart, even a baseboard, there’s like 600 nails in it. Guys go crazy with those pneumatic nailers, pop pop pop pop pop. It must be addictive 

Lot of truth to that

1 hour ago, Bubba 460 said:

 

Way back when I was framing houses there were no nail guns, you used a long quality hammer and swung it like you meant business. Even back in the late 60's a good hammer like a 22oz Vaughn cost like $35.00, that was more than a days pay back then. Today and equal hammer would run about $50+   Not many can really handle a hammer today like carpenters back then, it's mostly all nail-guns now. Although maybe I was not a  cordless impact driver, I sure could swat nails and I'm talking ALL day long.

The roofers back then were amazing to watch. 

Hand full of roofing nails, flip a nail so that it's between your index and middle finger, one tap of the hammer to set the nail, one hard blow to set the nail into the roofing shingle. At the same time the final blow is made the hand holding the roofing nails was ready with a nail between their index and middle fingers.

 

Some of those guys were about as quick as a nail gun.

[Mike L]

13 minutes ago, Jigfishn10 said:

Lot of truth to that

The roofers back then were amazing to watch. 

Hand full of roofing nails, flip a nail so that it's between your index and middle finger, one tap of the hammer to set the nail, one hard blow to set the nail into the roofing shingle. At the same time the final blow is made the hand holding the roofing nails was ready with a nail between their index and middle fingers.

 

Some of those guys were about as quick as a nail gun.

It’s a Dying art, like a lot of things nowadays 

 

 

 

Mike

[Bubba 460]

Well my worthless drunk of a father left us for the last time when I was 5. My Mom raised us 6 kids best she could scrubbing floors and washing other people clothes. Had it not have been for the Salvation Army and a couple of churches we would not have made it. We were set out on the street more than once with what little belonging we had. Anyway if we did anything wrong my mother would miraculously appear with a big cape, a folded belt and a big "W" on her apron that stood for 'Whoopin" and it was was 100 proof,  pants down with a belt if it was bad enough. Oh Buddy, I didn't forget those. I would not cry at first but she would keep on till I did!

 

 

3 hours ago, Jigfishn10 said:

Lot of truth to that

The roofers back then were amazing to watch. 

Hand full of roofing nails, flip a nail so that it's between your index and middle finger, one tap of the hammer to set the nail, one hard blow to set the nail into the roofing shingle. At the same time the final blow is made the hand holding the roofing nails was ready with a nail between their index and middle fingers.

 

Some of those guys were about as quick as a nail gun.

 

Yep, professionals. I could hold about forty 8 penny nails in my left hand (point down) and feed them out as fast I needed too while nailing down plywood... tap and two hits.

[Jigfishn10]

12 minutes ago, Mike L said:

It’s a Dying art, like a lot of things nowadays 

 

 

 

Mike

True...There's a few things that I see that contributes to it.

Young tradesmen. Not many are getting into the trades any more. Seems like back in the 80's or so, you were told to go to school and prepare for college. So we started to lose people then.

 

Once we did get people in the trades, our construction schedules got crazier with tighter deadlines and we didn't teach the younger guys properly because we didn't have time...not always the case, but there is some validity to it.

 

Then the work ethic just wasn't there and it's hard to keep someone on a job if they don't have a sense of urgency.

 

It's too bad to. If you're not all for college life or desk life after your school years are done, you can make a decent living in the trades. May not strike it rich, but you'll do fine.

[Skunkmaster-k]

18 minutes ago, Bubba 460 said:

mother would miraculously appear with a big cape, a folded belt and a big "W" on her apron that stood for 'Whoopin" and it was was 100 proof,  pants down with a belt if it was bad enough

Ah , this really takes me back to my childhood . As Archie once sang “those were the days! “

[Bubba 460]

1 hour ago, moguy1973 said:

Well, kids now a days eat Tide Pods.  I think mud might be a little better for you.

 

Well other than a slight facial twitch mud never hurt me.

[DitchPanda]

I'm by no means a master tradesman but my dad has had all kinds of life experience so he taught me a lot of things. Basic vehicle maintenance, plumbing,carpentry, knife sharpening and handling, gun safety, fish care and cleaning, grilling and smoking , roofing and even concrete work. But perhaps the biggest thing he taught me was troubleshooting. At my job the biggest thing that separates operators is troubleshooting...being able to quickly recognize, diagnose and work around an issue while still keeping the plant running(when feasible) until said issue is resolved. Alot of it is ability level based...comprehension, application and overall intelligence...but like so many things alot of it is just care and involvement. So many people now days are quick to jump ship at the first signs of rough water and make it somebody else's problem.

[J Francho]

We've been expanding our team to about double what we were, and most of these younger hires are harder working, faster, and smarter than many of the long time employees.  That said, these aren't trades, these kids are coming out of college with slick skills and a drive to work hard and add value.  Perhaps all you with negative experiences are looking in the wrong places.  Maybe the pay isn't enough or the work sucks so bad it isn't worth the money.  The only people I see in my workplace with entitlement issues are usually close to retirement, and spend more time complaining about young people than doing the work.

[DitchPanda]

10 minutes ago, J Francho said:

We've been expanding our team to about double what we were, and most of these younger hires are harder working, faster, and smarter than many of the long time employees.  That said, these aren't trades, these kids are coming out of college with slick skills and a drive to work hard.  Perhaps all you with negative experiences are looking in the wrong places.  Maybe the pay isn't enough or the work sucks so bad it isn't worth the money.  The only people I see in my workplace with entitlement issues are usually close to retirement, and spend more time complaining about young people than doing the work.

I'm not complaining about young people..I'm complaining about lazy people. The best new hire we have had in the past few years is a 23 year old guy that just got out of the navy. He is ambitious, hard working and intelligent. My job is much more mentally draining than physically so I don't think the work sucking is the issue. Pay is always a concern of course..nobody thinks they make enough. But you can work at the gas station for $11hr, do siding and roofing for $15hr or work at the plant and spend half your work life in an air conditiined office for $18hr. I think the issue is lack of work ethic and sense of entitlement. Alot of people feel like they are special and that there time is somehow more important than everybody elses.

[Jigfishn10]

33 minutes ago, J Francho said:

We've been expanding our team to about double what we were, and most of these younger hires are harder working, faster, and smarter than many of the long time employees.  That said, these aren't trades, these kids are coming out of college with slick skills and a drive to work hard and add value.  Perhaps all you with negative experiences are looking in the wrong places.  Maybe the pay isn't enough or the work sucks so bad it isn't worth the money.  The only people I see in my workplace with entitlement issues are usually close to retirement, and spend more time complaining about young people than doing the work.

Not sure where this is coming from J, I really don't see people complaining about the kids in this thread.

 

Honestly, it's refreshing to hear that you've had a very positive experience with kids coming out of school are really contributing. I can also relate to the entitlement statement you made. I see it all the time. 

 

Anyway, I respect your position.

 

EDIT: Never mind, I did see 1 post that doesn't support my claims. Feel free to delete

[J Francho]

4 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Was talking to a buddy at work a while back and he was commenting on how hard it is to find people that are worth a crap.

 

2 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

how many 20 year olds can change a flat tire? Or oil?

 

3 hours ago, Bubba 460 said:

Not many can really handle a hammer today like carpenters back then

 

2 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Yep..my same buddy also says if you hire potatoes you get a control room full of potatoes. They have been playing hardball with wages..not willing to pay people what they deserve. Several people have walked the past six months and management acts like they don't get why people are ticked, morale is low and guys are walking out. My philosophy has changed to instead of killing myself for the plant ill just do what they pay me for. They say the wage is competitive well so is my effort.

 

2 hours ago, gunsinger said:

We live in an age where kids grew up entitled. 

 

These are the comments I was responding to.  The problem as stated was finding good workers, and every time that happens, it's always, "Well, kids these days...." It's total bologna.  If you can't find good help, then your looking in the wrong places.  And stop with the back in my day we could nail as fast as a nail gun.  You would not if you weren't paid enough to do it.  Imagine that - a thing made anyone with a little training as valuable as the expert with a hammer.  A nail gun is a heck of lot cheaper, doesn't call in sick, or get hurt on the job, and the guy using it can be replaced without too much heartache.   If you can't find someone to use it, pay a little more.  I guarantee the guy that could nail that fast back in the day made a living wage.  Automation isn't bad thing.  Using it to cheap out on employees is.

[Jigfishn10]

 

 

Quote

 And stop with the back in my day we could nail as fast as a nail gun.

 

Quote

Some of those guys were about as quick as a nail gun.

 

Prior to the above quote I said they were amazing to watch.

 

When I started out in my field I swung a hammer I was considered fast. I was actually way slower than these guys who had way more experience than I did at the time. I admired these guys. They got me into this field and encouraged me to stay with it. I'm not complaining, I carved out a pretty good career. 

 

I would love to get a young guy to teach and help grow just like the guys who helped me. I have no problem with that. Unfortunately, what we do is hard physical labor that takes a toll on your body. I see guys my age with bad knees, backs, hips etc. We have a long standing member on this site who was was forced to get out of the field  because of shoulder health issues so I don't blame those who don't want to get into the trades.

 

J, I respect the fact that your sticking up for the youth. My daughter is twenty and is starting to make her way in this world and I can only help her when she seeks my help or advice. I'm a proud dad and have no problems bragging about it.

 

Keep on keeping on brother.

 

[Bubba 460]

1 hour ago, J Francho said:

 

 

 

 

 

These are the comments I was responding to.  The problem as stated was finding good workers, and every time that happens, it's always, "Well, kids these days...." It's total bologna.  If you can't find good help, then your looking in the wrong places.  And stop with the back in my day we could nail as fast as a nail gun.  You would not if you weren't paid enough to do it.  Imagine that - a thing made anyone with a little training as valuable as the expert with a hammer.  A nail gun is a heck of lot cheaper, doesn't call in sick, or get hurt on the job, and the guy using it can be replaced without too much heartache.   If you can't find someone to use it, pay a little more.  I guarantee the guy that could nail that fast back in the day made a living wage.  Automation isn't bad thing.  Using it to cheap out on employees is.

 

There has always been good workers and slackers... always was and always will be; that's not really the point. They don't sing songs about nail gunners, or steam powered engines, they sing songs about people like John Henry, Paul Bunion and others. No, automation isn't bad thing, but it pales in comparison to certain times and men (and women) who excelled in a craft, skill or deeds. Life back then was about power - the individual's raw strength or determination that no automation system could understand or take away take from a man. Yes, John Henry died from his race with a steam engine but he beat it in the allotted time. No easy feat, and that is why we know who he is today. The  power tool, the machine, is just an automated piece of equipment that can be run by most anyone... a nobody as you say that can easily be replaced by another nobody. Yes the machine can do it faster, longer, and for less money, but it does not take away from the "special individuals" that came before... the ones they sing songs about.

[DitchPanda]

1 hour ago, J Francho said:

 

 

 

 

 

These are the comments I was responding to.  The problem as stated was finding good workers, and every time that happens, it's always, "Well, kids these days...." It's total bologna.  If you can't find good help, then your looking in the wrong places.  And stop with the back in my day we could nail as fast as a nail gun.  You would not if you weren't paid enough to do it.  Imagine that - a thing made anyone with a little training as valuable as the expert with a hammer.  A nail gun is a heck of lot cheaper, doesn't call in sick, or get hurt on the job, and the guy using it can be replaced without too much heartache.   If you can't find someone to use it, pay a little more.  I guarantee the guy that could nail that fast back in the day made a living wage.  Automation isn't bad thing.  Using it to cheap out on employees is.

I agree with you that automation is good and can make any business more efficient when its used correctly. My comment about 20 year olds not being able to change a tire was about not having basic skills it was not a comment about laziness. But if you think people in general of all ages aren't a little lazier and more entitled then I disagree with you on that. Its not all the individuals fault...I suspect something you eluded to has something to do with it. With so much automation people are getting less actual job training, people don't really do much at work other than babysit machines or computers doing everything so they are less invested because they can be. Also employers have an attitude of anybody can be replaced tomorrow since there are no skills required in alot of jobs because of technology advances. Because of that the workers don't really take pride in work or give a crap about the company because the company doesn't give a crap about them. Of course I'm speaking in generalities here...and these are just my opinions based on what I've seen and heard.

[J Francho]

You can't get a time machine, so I'd say find a new place to work.  By the sounds of it, it should be easy.  And yes, I agree - any skilled worker is a thing of beauty to watch, especially if it's someone making something tangible.

[DitchPanda]

5 minutes ago, J Francho said:

You can't get a time machine, so I'd say find a new place to work.  By the sounds of it, it should be easy.  And yes, I agree - any skilled worker is a thing of beauty to watch, especially if it's someone making something tangible.

I'm actually moving into a new position at work which should alleviate some of the annoyance as ill be more on my own and dealing less with the people im referring to. One thing I will say @J Francho is I appreciate your perspective and your general no BS attitude towards all manner of subjects. You have a great way of cutting to the core and offering constructive criticism and solutions.