How a fantastic smallmouth bass fishing area is wiped out.

[TnRiver46]

12 hours ago, dv616 said:

He is wrong on larger fish not being better reproduction as well.  Larger fish have more and larger eggs that are more likely to hatch as well.  Plus a lot of other factors as that make it important to protect larger fish.  

I wonder why biologists set limits that protect only small fish and allow harvest of only mature adults then??

[cyclops2]

Post some of your biologist reports for us to agree with .

[Ski]

11 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I wonder why biologists set limits that protect only small fish and allow harvest of only mature adults then??

Not all do. In Fl. the limit is 5 LMB. No minimum but only 1 over 16 inch. So the smaller ones are the ones "not protected"

[TnRiver46]

58 minutes ago, cyclops2 said:

Post some of your biologist reports for us to agree with .

 

https://www2.tntech.edu/wrc/DuckRiverManual/Small_Mouth_Bass_tech.pdf

 

Every body of water has different population dynamics but what they have going on in the st Lawrence appears to a casual observer to be some of the biggest healthiest smallmouth bass in the world . And they’ve been hosting those fishing tournaments and eating bass for decades 

46 minutes ago, Ski said:

Not all do. In Fl. the limit is 5 LMB. No minimum but only 1 over 16 inch. So the smaller ones are the ones "not protected"

Some places have slot limits too. Flowing rivers in TN have a protected length limit of 13-17” 

 

[Tennessee Boy]

Very interesting article @TnRiver46.  Thanks for posting it.  One line from it that sums it up nicely.

 

“Populations that have low natural mortality rates and high fishing pressure have the greatest chance for improvement.”

 

There’s clearly not a simple answer for every fishery.  Every body of water is different and the dynamics are complex.  That’s why I let the experts figure it out.  A fishery is not gonna be fished out in a single season.  When the experts get it wrong they can adjust the rules over time.  All I have to do is follow the rules.   

[cyclops2]

One other line in that computerized report is more telling.

Quote The growth rates of 3,185 bass were completed By MEASURING the inner ear EAR BONE.  1995 to 2000

 

Only killed off 3,185in 5 years.   In the prime locations of the state.  Afull reading reveal admission of using estimations, Changing data to CONFORM to their belief of what the data should have been.

 

The study is paid for to promote a predecided position. It use hundreds of computer models & 1938 data to justify the 3,185 deaths of prime location bass.

[MGF]

15 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

 

https://www2.tntech.edu/wrc/DuckRiverManual/Small_Mouth_Bass_tech.pdf

 

Every body of water has different population dynamics but what they have going on in the st Lawrence appears to a casual observer to be some of the biggest healthiest smallmouth bass in the world . And they’ve been hosting those fishing tournaments and eating bass for decades 

Some places have slot limits too. Flowing rivers in TN have a protected length limit of 13-17” 

 

In my state there is a slot limit on the rivers (12"-15"). I remember the state citing the push by anglers for the limit. I don't know what if any science was referenced.

[TnRiver46]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10402381.2015.1059912

 

Another decent study, although the SMB were introduced as opposed to native in this case 

[cyclops2]

The majority of the data is again created by using standardized MODELS that are accepted by Fish & game agencies to speed up the findings and use less man hours & equipment in the streams & reservoirs.  Understandable.  But the most HONEST & sincere statement about ALL THEIR  best intended efforts to increase size & numbers.  At the end of the program was stated on page 187. We could not determine any real difference in areas WITH CONTROLS compared to the rest of the water ways WITHOUT CONTROLS.   

A outstanding conclusion to come to over several years.  It points up the difficulty that trying to manipulate waterways to save or increase fish populations.  With people dumping in any fish from anywhere in the world ?   The native fish can be reduced suddenly with no noticeable  changes in water color or plants in it.  Substantial fish reductions can be from diseases, Parasites in the meat, organs, loss of bait fish amounts Oxygen changes or several other problems.  We are constantly finding newer invasive fishes & plants, to push aside our favorite fish. It is TOTALLY out of F & G  peoples budgets to reverse 1 or 40 different things causing a reduction of native fish.

 

Studies are great.    BUUUTT   Who has enough money &  POWER  to restore our native fish ?   No  one.

[cyclops2]

 Edit to above.  The bass & all other fishing contest are not the only people transporting undesirable plants, weeds and diseases around the country. 

 

How many NON fishing, Trailered,  Boats are going to different waters each year ?   A  TON more.

 

I am ALMOST glad we have discussed the native fish problems.  Old geezers usually do not accept the changes well.  I now accept my bay being lost to progress.

[TnRiver46]

23 minutes ago, cyclops2 said:

The majority of the data is again created by using standardized MODELS that are accepted by Fish & game agencies to speed up the findings and use less man hours & equipment in the streams & reservoirs.  Understandable.  But the most HONEST & sincere statement about ALL THEIR  best intended efforts to increase size & numbers.  At the end of the program was stated on page 187. We could not determine any real difference in areas WITH CONTROLS compared to the rest of the water ways WITHOUT CONTROLS.   

A outstanding conclusion to come to over several years.  It points up the difficulty that trying to manipulate waterways to save or increase fish populations.  With people dumping in any fish from anywhere in the world ?   The native fish can be reduced suddenly with no noticeable  changes in water color or plants in it.  Substantial fish reductions can be from diseases, Parasites in the meat, organs, loss of bait fish amounts Oxygen changes or several other problems.  We are constantly finding newer invasive fishes & plants, to push aside our favorite fish. It is TOTALLY out of F & G  peoples budgets to reverse 1 or 40 different things causing a reduction of native fish.

 

Studies are great.    BUUUTT   Who has enough money &  POWER  to restore our native fish ?   No  one.

I was just posting some studies that were Easy to find because you requested them. They all come to the same conclusion that mother nature controls herself. I’ve been a part of several such studies, both sampling and writing. You do the best you can an estimate the rest. There are lots of universities with graduate programs and grant money available if you can come up with better methods for more in-depth study.

 

I would rather draw a conclusion from extensive data than single line trolling samples 

[JLBBass]

On 7/29/2021 at 9:46 AM, TnRiver46 said:

 Peak reproduction occurs around 13-17” in smallmouth bass 

wrong!

 

[TnRiver46]

35 minutes ago, JLBBass said:

wrong!

 

Prove it 

On 7/31/2021 at 6:34 AM, cyclops2 said:

The Canadian Fish agency ............DID STATE........to successfully PROTECT that the SIZE   of the fish was ALL of the BEST and most .......MOST PRODUCTIVE .........size that breed and ........ PROTECT the hatched out babies.

 

The 11"   females DO NOT defend a nest as well as the record sized ones.    So size DOES MATTER on the successful reproduction.  Always with Smallmouth Bass.

 

Next we will have sponsor calling the Canadian Fish Department liars ?

No female bass protect nests, smaller male fish do 

and here’s a link to the full study if you want that 

https://waves-vagues.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/337846.pdf

[Spankey]

Is this feeling of fish depletement only taking place this year. This season. Like having a bad season or not the norm. Or Slowly been regressing over time?

[cyclops2]

Great question. My bay has been getting more fishless in the 6 to 8' deep area ever since They put in city sewage in all river frontage houses for many miles. The super green slime is covering the shallowest shoreline edge. We NEVER had anything growing along the shallowest bare sand & pebbles.  Just drift stuff. With Septic tank discharges we would have 10 to 20 acres of weed beds in different parts of the bays. Our local largest bay has almost NO weeds this year as reported by the pike guys. Also no real pike either Or other fish.

It sadly looks & feels like the food chain is broken or gone.  I am pinging on different sized fish on the deeper edges of the Si. Lawrence River. 

In my small creek S M nests. BOTH sexes guard the nest. Occasionally  each partner leaves for a while. Then the other goes away for a while. Sometimes both will be in the nest for a while.  The male & female are HUGE. I never catch them. 

[gim]

On 8/1/2021 at 4:48 AM, TnRiver46 said:

I wonder why biologists set limits that protect only small fish and allow harvest of only mature adults then??

That’s not the case here at all. Large fish are protected from harvest here and people generally keep the smaller ones. Most harvested species of fish here have a restricted slot size that the fish must fall in to keep. Big fish often have more toxic elements in their bodies built up over time and their filets are tougher. It’s like comparing a young deer to an old buck.

 

I can’t comment on what age or size range peak reproduction of smallmouth bass is there but sexual maturity of female smallmouth bass here occurs at approximately 5-7 years of age. A 5 pound/20 inch bass here is a decade or more old. That’s not a renewable resource here by any means. If people started keeping those things with regularity, our population would get wiped it quickly. My information is from a biologist at the AOY tournament in Sept 2015 at Mille Lacs.

 

As for the original topic at hand on the dead fish in the dumpster, it appears to be an isolated incident because it’s the only time it happened. But if it occurred once, it can occur again. Woo seems apologetic for the issue and determined not to let it happen again.

 

All fish of every species have indeterminate growth. So basically they never stop growing as they age. I say let them grow and see how big they can get.

 

On 8/1/2021 at 10:36 AM, Tennessee Boy said:

A fishery is not gonna be fished out in a single season.

Oh that’s not true here. The winter anglers here can virtually completely wipe out a population of decent sized sunfish or crappies here in a very short period of time. And since all of them are in it to harvest, there’s no catch and releasing going on at all. The only thing that saves a few is crappy ice and the fact that most fish do not feed as heavily in the winter.

[cyclops2]

Lets not put all the fish losses on the ice people.

 

The crappy job & wages  market & fish diseases are destroying the area around me.  Several people at the camp sites fish FOR MONEY to help pay their bills.  1 neighbor fills 5 gallon pails & sells to all restaurants locally. The religious farmers go out in row boats & keep everything that meets their standards.  Lake Ontario winters are long enough to reduce growth rates severely for bait & game fish. Add in the use of the latest fish finders. There is no way the populations are going to survive.  Plus VIRUS diseases like the hemorrhagic  ones.  We are trying & succeeding to wipe out the various bait & game fish we enjoy.

I see parents teaching a child how to remove a  hooked fish on a worm. TEAR the hook out. Then cut off the throat or gills still on the hook.  

I may lie to others. But I NEVER LIE TO MYSELF. 

 

The hunting is in serious animal decline also. There is no shoot & release available. PLUS  In my farming area there are NO winter crops anymore to help animals make it . The Crows & Turkey Vultures are rare now.  Add in all the millions of tons of property sprayed with plant, animal & insect poisons and nothing is recovering from all our Sport Harvesting.   More people play. More non humans die faster than they can repopulate.

 

Lets keep bass fishing those bass nests.  DUUUHHH

[Bluebasser86]

[cyclops2]

Cute 

 

But about 13 of us retired guys who fish all summer  and almost everyday had a get together to figure out if we all are losing it.  Or are the fish classes are disappearing.  We came to a unanimous conclusion. The fish sizes are very small and very few.  There is a  complete loss of some fish types under the docks & boats. The kids are just sitting down holding rods with worms. For a 1/4 of a mile out in spotty weed clumps. Almost nothing except a rare 3" fish of any type.

 

The sky has fallen down on fishing in my area. The bass pros race out to Lake Ontario for 1 hour. Catch the biggest females. Then race back for a hour. Have a weigh in. Go to the next town & relocate boat loads of only the best females. Repeat the never putting back each fish from where he caught it from.............. Why not?

 

I ant got no time for Catch weigh & release.  I do this for the money. Not waste time, gas & equipment on things that reduce my profits............. They are trying to make a LIVING off of  catching the biggest fish ONLY..............Fishing locations can not take that week after week by different contests.

[cyclops2]

Our favorite restaurant filled me in on the loss of US perch for Friday night All you can eat.......They are forced to use African perch .  Tastes almost the same. But is softer.

The Basket of Shrimp has changed to a smaller and softer ones. Lots of seafood is now raised in floating pens /  nets in the seas. Do not read about the problems & quality of raised fish. 

[Bluebasser86]

1 hour ago, cyclops2 said:

Cute 

 

But about 13 of us retired guys who fish all summer  and almost everyday had a get together to figure out if we all are losing it.  Or are the fish classes are disappearing.  We came to a unanimous conclusion. The fish sizes are very small and very few.  There is a  complete loss of some fish types under the docks & boats. The kids are just sitting down holding rods with worms. For a 1/4 of a mile out in spotty weed clumps. Almost nothing except a rare 3" fish of any type.

 

The sky has fallen down on fishing in my area. The bass pros race out to Lake Ontario for 1 hour. Catch the biggest females. Then race back for a hour. Have a weigh in. Go to the next town & relocate boat loads of only the best females. Repeat the never putting back each fish from where he caught it from.............. Why not?

 

I ant got no time for Catch weigh & release.  I do this for the money. Not waste time, gas & equipment on things that reduce my profits............. They are trying to make a LIVING off of  catching the biggest fish ONLY..............Fishing locations can not take that week after week by different contests.

I was talking about the end of the thread, not sure what we're trying to gain here other than just complaining to hear ourselves complain and I think we've about done enough of that. 

 

LOCKDOWN!!