The ever elusive brown fish...I need some help!

[DitchPanda]

  So lets get this out of the way...I'm not a very good smallmouth angler. Largemouth I can figure out and hold my own but I don't have the time or experience chasing bronze backs to even claim to know what I'm doing.

  Now for the details of my current situation. A few years ago we had terrible flooding..the local river blew its banks and dumped into my local ponds several times in a few year period. The upside to this was the pond got a small stocking of cool river fish such as pike, white bass and most importantly smallies.

  That first year I caught probably 20-25 small mouth. Last year we went into a drought and the water level dropped throughout the open water season. I only caught  2-3 small mouth. This year the pond is as low as I've seen it and ive caught 0 small mouth. The structure/cover in this pond which is actually and old gravel pit is mostly sand with rock mixed in...several planted brush piles...a couple shorelines lined with rip rap..max depth of around 15-16 ft.

  My question is if the fish aren't up shallow where would you look for them? As the water cools in fall will they move in shallow to feed? In this scenario where the largemouth population is dominate will the smallies act more like largemouth or still like small mouth?

 

[A-Jay]

Interesting situation ~

Couple thought come to mind.

First to answer your question, yes, IME brown bass often do venture shallow during both cool water periods BUT beyond the spawn, it's always relate to food.  They just don't hang out in the skinny stuff for fun.

No food (here it's mostly perch, crayfish, goby and a few pelagic type minnows)

there almost no chance they will be around.

Additionally, when trying to compare them to green bass and to help 'figure them out'.

Perhaps this will help;

Where a Green bass will sit next to or perhaps inside cover and 'wait' to ambush a meal in skinny water.  Despite a few smallies taken of docks and the like, the biggest brown bass are usually not doing that.  (btw my waters have ZERO docks that hold any fish, green or brown).

 Instead she will Hunt (often in packs) - so she's on the move until she finds what she's looking for.

How far depends on the season; warmer water, she'll travel a ways, often a long ways.

Cooler water not so much.  This is what makes that time of year more productive for us.

It also means that very often, unless we know where the bait is, we're looking for a moving target.

In the end, my quest for these elusive beasts begins & ends with looking for whatever I think the Brown bass are looking to eat; and then, I camp.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Fish Hard

A-Jay

 

 

 

[gim]

@DitchPanda are you even sure there are still smallmouth bass in there?  If they weren't initially in there to begin with and only recently made it in there because of a flood, maybe there aren't any in there anymore.

 

BTW we are experiencing historically low water levels here in MN just like you are there.  And there is no relief in sight either.

[DitchPanda]

Well I guess I can't be certain but I'm almost positive. There is no water inlet or outlet so after the last flood they were trapped. Also the pond in question gets very little fishing pressure especially for bass so it would be hard to imagine they have all been caught and taken.

[TnRiver46]

Green bass and brown bass eat the same things. I would guess smallies in a pond wouldn’t live too long 

[DitchPanda]

33 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Green bass and brown bass eat the same things. I would guess smallies in a pond wouldn’t live too long 

Why is that? The pond I'm talking is really more of a small lake...it has diverse forage...crappies, various sunfish,craws and shad

[Sphynx]

7 hours ago, A-Jay said:

Interesting situation ~

Couple thought come to mind.

First to answer your question, yes, IME brown bass often do venture shallow during both cool water periods BUT beyond the spawn, it's always relate to food.  They just don't hang out in the skinny stuff for fun.

No food (here it's mostly perch, crayfish, goby and a few pelagic type minnows)

there almost no chance they will be around.

Additionally, when trying to compare them to green bass and to help 'figure them out'.

Perhaps this will help;

Where a Green bass will sit next to or perhaps inside cover and 'wait' to ambush a meal in skinny water.  Despite a few smallies taken of docks and the like, the biggest brown bass are usually not doing that.  (btw my waters have ZERO docks that hold any fish, green or brown).

 Instead she will Hunt (often in packs) - so she's on the move until she finds what she's looking for.

How far depends on the season; warmer water, she'll travel a ways, often a long ways.

Cooler water not so much.  This is what makes that time of year more productive for us.

It also means that very often, unless we know where the bait is, we're looking for a moving target.

In the end, my quest for these elusive beasts begins & ends with looking for whatever I think the Brown bass are looking to eat; and they I camp.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Fish Hard

A-Jay

 

 

 

This has become a theory I heavily subscribe to, tonight is a perfect example, last 2 weeks have had them feeding on rip rap and rocks out here chasing minnows, the wind has kicked up hard, throwing breakers on the river the last couple days, and poof, that pattern is gone like a fart in the wind, I can tell you after just 15 minutes out here, they aren't here and they want something other than a baitfish profile, my guess is they are either in the grass hunting, or else are looking for a crawfish imitation of some variety, but either way, they aren't in my usual spots last couple of days. 

[TnRiver46]

17 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Why is that? The pond I'm talking is really more of a small lake...it has diverse forage...crappies, various sunfish,craws and shad

I mean, if it was a common scenario they would have been in the ponds before the flood 

[Spankey]

They could very well still be in there. Found a more suitable place to stay in there. 
 

I could very well be wrong on this and please correct me on it. 
 

When a river floods out? Greater current is on the top. I can only imagine fish such as bass would stay toward the bottom to avoid the quicker Topwater flow. I would think they would take to the bottom of the water column. 
 

But I’m probably wrong in my thinking. 

[J Francho]

It's always about find the food.  They relate to structure, but not in a small way.  They relate to it via movement of what they're eating.  My guess is pick a crepuscular time to fish - dusk or dawn - when the bait activity is high.  I fish a VERY deep quarry and this has been the only time I can catch the plentiful smallies there.  I typically bomb topwaters from shore over what I perceive to be structural bottlenecks to the bait.

 

You can't fish this anymore, so I don't care about sharing it here.  This is the quarry I'm talking about.

 

Here's a typical catch, sorry about the butt.  Man I hate that I have pics like this.

 

[Skunkmaster-k]

14 hours ago, Sphynx said:

gone like a fart in the wind

This made me laugh 

[Dogface]

On 7/15/2021 at 2:46 PM, gimruis said:

@DitchPanda are you even sure there are still smallmouth bass in there?  If they weren't initially in there to begin with and only recently made it in there because of a flood, maybe there aren't any in there anymore.

 

 

I stock a friend's pond. It is great LM water. 

 

One time I put some SM in the pond just to see what would happen. I caught SM in the moving water in the vicinity of the spillway for a few years and then nothing. 

 

I do not know what happened to the SM but they either died off or went over the spillway during a high water event. 

[TnRiver46]

22 minutes ago, Dogface said:

 

I stock a friend's pond. It is great LM water. 

 

One time I put some SM in the pond just to see what would happen. I caught SM in the moving water in the vicinity of the spillway for a few years and then nothing. 

 

I do not know what happened to the SM but they either died off or went over the spillway during a high water event. 

A pond is simply not smallmouth habitat, otherwise they would be in all ponds across America like largemouth. Sure, you can put one or three in a pond and they will live. But they won’t form a reproducing population. The only exceptions I could imagine is maybe if your pond is in maybe Maine, upstate New York, or maybe Montana or Idaho 

[Sphynx]

Given the SM preference for current and cooler water by comparison to LM, it would seem to me that ponds are disadvantaged to start with, and even if you wanted to set one up for smallies you'd have quite a fight on your hands to keep it going in a cost efficient manner...most ponds I have ever fished don't have enough depth to meet the cooler water requirements in the dead heat of summer, so I would guess that a roughly 25-40% (based on location/length of summer) of the year being very hard on the fish doesn't bode well for the long term prospects.

[DitchPanda]

Well let me go into more detail about why I feel the smallies are still in there. Let me also state that I'm not sure I'm just speculating. The pond in question is like I mentioned above more of a small lake...decent volume of water. Habitat wise it has alot of things smallmouth really like...sand,gravel and chunk rock. It also has alot of forage smallmouth target...craws, shad, different types of river minnows and even a few perch. Lastly there are several springs that come in so this body of water is often times cooler by several degrees all summer then your typical weedy, mossy largemouth pond.

[Dogface]

3 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

A pond is simply not smallmouth habitat, otherwise they would be in all ponds across America like largemouth. 

I know that but that pond and many others have features that are attractive to SM.  

 

BTW The pond is fed by a trout stream and empties into a trout stream. Further north that stream turns into a good SM creek and then dumps into the Susquehanna.  

[cyclops2]

The highest temperatures do not destroy all of the bass needs.  Use barbless during the hot weather to reduce fatal infections from the barb holes. 

I still am not sure if a barbless hook penetrates faster & deeper on the light nippers.

But

My hook up rate is MUCH higher with the new Rapala lures & hooks.

The fish are well fed and more carefull about a suck in and clamp down.

 

All the fish are more cautious about a bite now.

 

 

[Sphynx]

2 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Well let me go into more detail about why I feel the smallies are still in there. Let me also state that I'm not sure I'm just speculating. The pond in question is like I mentioned above more of a small lake...decent volume of water. Habitat wise it has alot of things smallmouth really like...sand,gravel and chunk rock. It also has alot of forage smallmouth target...craws, shad, different types of river minnows and even a few perch. Lastly there are several springs that come in so this body of water is often times cooler by several degrees all summer then your typical weedy, mossy largemouth pond.

Well, that sounds like a very different scenario than the prototypical "pond" I have in my mind, which more or less mimics Darwin's theory of the beginning of life on Earth, "A hot, soupy little pool" or thereabouts. In this case you might just be in the same boat as the rest of us that get absolutely infuriated by these fish, like our own @A-Jay has pointed out recently, unless they are spawning, they seem to be motivated by nothing but food, find the food, find the fish. I couldn't even begin to tell you whether there are any real predictable signs as to why they will choose to obliterate craws on rock piles one day, then become the stuff of nightmare for shad or bluegill the next along weed edges and in current Eddie's, but that seems to be the way it has worked for me, you get into a couple few bites don't change the channel because your into a school and you've found what they want, if it's any other way they either aren't being picky, or aren't going to eat, or your fishing in an area/food source they have decided is not preferred that time.

 

As far as whether barbs cause any more harm than barbless hooks, I can't say I've ever heard of or seen any evidence to support it, but in the interests of not being a closed minded ***** I would love it if a link to any peer reviewed scientific studies could be provided, might be time to flatten my barbs if there is anything to that.

[cyclops2]

I ran a real life test on the effect barbs can have on a fish's jaw & skin or a human hand palm skin.

 

Human skin of your palm is as tough as leather. If you have a BIG salt water lure with 4 trebles on it.  & a Muskie whips those EXTRA STRONG trebles  into your palm. I can tell you how almost impossible when alone.  It is to RIP OUT each1" hook of 5 hooks. I had to use the pointy BARB as a knife to tear a series of slits from each hole. The shock of realizing that you are getting shaky& might not make it to the car 100' up a steep railroad embankment alone. The ER staff looked at my hand & face a couple of times as they removed my handkerchief. Said I was super lucky I did not sever any control nerves .  What tools do we need with a 10 " lure on 1 rod ?  None

 

1 

[Sphynx]

25 minutes ago, cyclops2 said:

I ran a real life test on the effect barbs can have on a fish's jaw & skin or a human hand palm skin.

 

Human skin of your palm is as tough as leather. If you have a BIG salt water lure with 4 trebles on it.  & a Muskie whips those EXTRA STRONG trebles  into your palm. I can tell you how almost impossible when alone.  It is to RIP OUT each1" hook of 5 hooks. I had to use the pointy BARB as a knife to tear a series of slits from each hole. The shock of realizing that you are getting shaky& might not make it to the car 100' up a steep railroad embankment alone. The ER staff looked at my hand & face a couple of times as they removed my handkerchief. Said I was super lucky I did not sever any control nerves .  What tools do we need with a 10 " lure on 1 rod ?  None

 

1 

As much as I appreciate the efforts, this is kind of what I am not looking to make decisions based on, there is no objectively quantifiable data to go on, no control, no individual metric of measurement, as far as putting hooks in your hand and the dangers associated with it? No disagreement at all, treble hook baits are far more intimidating thatn single hook presentations, but mention was made of fish having a lower survivability rate when caught by barbed hooks as opposed to debarbed ones, is there any quantifiable, repeatable experiment that has been submitted to a peer reviewed source on this? Any raw data from which to draw my own conclusions to compare with your statement?  If it is available, I would love to see it to get more information. 

[cyclops2]

I posted a sign on the bottom of the river.

 No fish have volunteered.  ?