Braid, leader, Alberto knot, wind knots!

[voxborealis]

I am have problems with wind knots and casting distance since, and wondering if my leader is making things worse. Here is my set up:

 

Pflueger President XT SP40 spinning reel

Daiwa Procyon 702MHFS 7’ spinning rod

Sufix 832 20# braid

15# mono leader connected with Alberto knot

 

I am fishing from shore not targeting any specific species, but with heavier tackle I catch some decent bass and pike. I tend to throw a lot of inline spinners (my confidence bait), but also heavy spoons if the pike bite it on, some spinner baits, and spin jigs. Occasional crank baits. Basically, I am not very skilled with finesse techniques—still learning after growing up deadsticking night crawlers—so I tend to fall back on cast and wind. I am trying to learn to use soft plastics (more below).

 

I like to use a leader for three reasons. (1) I tend to switch lures frequently, and rather cut off leader than braid. (2) I use a weaker leader than main line for break offs, so I don’t have to cut a long chunk of braid when snagged. (3) I use 15# leader because it’s strong enough to handle most of the cover I’m fishing as well as the small to medium pike I get. I’ve yet to have a bite off. 
 

I started by using a barrel swivel to connect main line to leader, but recently I switched to using an Alberto knot. I have a second, much lighter rod that I use for panfish, with 10# braid connected to 6#or 8# mono with an Alberto knot, and it works like a dream. I can set up a 5 foot leader and tie and retie for days before needing a new leader. Set up works great for lost fishing, light jigs, small spinners, etc. So I began trying the same thing with my heavier rod.

 

so here is the problem.the Daiwa rod has pretty tiny guides. The top three or four are only about 3mm wide with the ceramic inserts. Even though I am tying a really tight knot, I can still feel it banging through the guides and I am pretty certain it is cutting down my casting distance. I addition, I am getting lots of pretty bad wind knots, especially if I try to do anything other than throw my heaviest cat and retrieve lures. Just today I was trying to practice Texas rigging a worm with a 1/4 oz weight, about 10 casts in a wind knot blew the whole thing up.

 

I am wondering if the small guides rattling the Alberto knot and slowing the cast is somehow contributing to the wind knots. I have been using braid for a couple of years now, and I am pretty certain it is spooled correctly. But I can't seem to be able to do anything "lighter" or more finesse on this rod without making the line looser on the spool, and now I am banging the leader off the guides.

 

Any advice for this novice? Are the guides too small for tying a long leader, and is this contributing to the casting problems I am experiencing?

 

I am really keen to learn to use soft plastics, especially as the summer approaches and the shoreline weeds up and call for more seedless presentation.

 

[A-Jay]

32 minutes ago, voxborealis said:

I am have problems with wind knots

I tend to throw a lot of inline spinners (my confidence bait), but also heavy spoons if the pike bite it on, some spinner baits, and spin jigs.

 

Wind knots with braid are often caused by line twist.

Spinners & Spoon are notorious baits for adding massive line twist;

especially when fished on spinning gear.

Here's one way to remove line twist.

Finally, Perhaps consider using a ball bearing swivel when fishing spoons & spinners,

it could help.

Good Luck

A-Jay

[voxborealis]

30 minutes ago, A-Jay said:

Finally, Perhaps consider using a ball bearing swivel when fishing spoons & spinners,

it could help.

Good Luck

A-Jay

So, then it sounds like I  should get rid of the Alberto knot (direct tie main line to leader) and go back to using a swivel to connect main to leader.

 

aside from the line twist, is it a problem to hear the knot rattling through the guides? Are those guides simply too small for direct connection between main and leader?

[jimmyjoe]

1 hour ago, A-Jay said:

Finally, Perhaps consider using a ball bearing swivel when fishing spoons & spinners,

it could help.

Good Luck

 

   "Good Luck" is right!

   Part of the problem is that the fibers in braided line take a set once twist has been introduced. So you can straighten the line out, but continued use of the spinners and spoons will re-introduce line twist twice as fast the second time.

   A good ball-bearing swivel will help, that's for sure. But nothing ..... and I mean nothing ..... can totally prevent line twist with spoons and spinners. I know; I use a lot of both.

   The best thing you can do is keep on top of the problem. Pay out 10 to 20 yards of your line at the end of the day, and run it through the weeds or tall grass for about 100-200 yards. The friction will tend to pull the twist out.

   Your leader has nothing to do with it., neither do the micro guides. They will affect your casting distance and your accuracy, but they don't contribute to twist, and twist is what wind knots are all about.

 

   I hope your problem improves!   (U-> ?)          jj

[LCG]

A couple things may help here. 

 

After the cast, close the bail by hand, then tighten the line with your hand before reeling. This stops line twist and loose line from getting into the spool, which is a big factor in getting wind knots. When casting in the wind, try to keep the cast low as well. This stop your line from bowing and ultimately reeling in slack line. 

 

As for the knot... I use a uni to uni knot, but I know a lot of people use the Alberto so I don't think that's the issue. You will always hear and feel the knot passing through the guides, regardless of knot type.

 

If the guides are too small, then the 15lb line may be too thick in diameter, once the knot is tied. You could try going down in leader length strength, maybe 10-12lb and see if that helps. Or you may need to look for a rod with larger guides. 

 

And definitely use snap swivels for inline spinners spoons. A few years ago, I had horrible line twist that resulted in the line not spooling correctly, couldn't figure it out. Then I realized I was throwing inline spinners tied direct for most of the day. The line was stacked to one side of the spool and wind knot after wind knot. Now, I still use inline spinners, but they get tied with a snap swivel. 

[bulldog1935]

+1001 on proper manual bail technique to completely eliminate wind knots 101%.  

[voxborealis]

Thanks for the advice! I was trying to follow the manufacturer (Mepps) advice to tie direct, but to be honest I have never notice a performance difference for the lure with or without (I’m not skilled enough!).

 

I had also thought of dropping leader seize to 10# or 12# but figured 15# was minimum to deal with most of the pike I run into to. Where I fish from shore it’s pretty much mixed bass and pike for the big fish. But the occasional bite off may be worth not having other hassles.

 

I’ll definitely need to be more careful while I try to learn soft plastics. I find that unless I am using a big weight and casting a mile, the line on the spool eventually loosens and tangles when I try dragging or hopping a worm. I'm sure this is mostly my poor technique. 

To clarify, I always manually close the bail no exception, so I think the problem(s) are elsewhere...some other mistake I am making!

[LCG]

37 minutes ago, voxborealis said:

the line on the spool eventually loosens and tangles when I try dragging or hopping a worm

Maybe try using the rop tip to move the bait, then reel in the line while dropping the tip of the rod, but still keeping some tension to avoid loose line from being spooled in the reel. 

 

Forgot to mention I also stop the line with my finger at the end of the cast. You mentioned you close the bail manually, so that a good start. Just be sure to pull the line tight before reeling and you should be good to go. 

 

We have a lot of pike in my area as well. I have lost a few lures to them. I don't fish for them often, but a good buddy uses 65 braid as a leader to his 20lb braid main line and it works for him. Personally, I don't run into them often enough to worry about it too much. My spinning set up is 20lb braid to a 6lb leader. Two Casting set ups use 30lb braid to 10lb leader and another has 40lb straight braid (15lb leader sometimes). 

[voxborealis]

26 minutes ago, LCG said:

 We have a lot of pike in my area as well. I have lost a few lures to them. I don't fish for them often, but a good buddy uses 65 braid as a leader to his 20lb braid main line and it works for him. Personally, I don't run into them often enough to worry about it too much. My spinning set up is 20lb braid to a 6lb leader. Two Casting set ups use 30lb braid to 10lb leader and another has 40lb straight braid (15lb leader sometimes). 

Bingo! I’ve never had alike bite off my lure. It will happen someday, but I’m not going to gear up with wire leaders etc just for.

 

20# braid with lighter leader than I am using sounds good.

[bulldog1935]

The titanium-wire pike leaders from Ukraine (Mako) and Poland (Dragon) are awesome, and the micro swivel will eliminate the last possible source of line twist.  

I use them in the salt on all spinning tackle.  5 or 6 kg is plenty, and just about as fine as braid.  

They also have elasticity, tensile and shock toughness that stainless wire doesn't have.  

 

 

I put 1" perfections loops at the business end of my fluoro shock leader, and loop-on paper clip, titanium bite trace, or cigar cork for my rigs.  

[GetFishorDieTryin]

Whether its on your end or the gear, line management is what causes wind knots.  The way your reel stacks line is the most important.  If there are any gaps at the top of the stack, it doesn't matter how well you manage the line your going have issues.  Taking up slack line also causes wind knots.  Make sure when you take up the line after the cast it has some tension on it.  Twisted line can aggravate issues, but it generally wont cause catastrophic wind knots if you are managing the line correctly.  Soft plastic baits, especially wacky rigs can cause twists as bad a spoon.  Make sure the bait is rigged straight and doesn't twist on the retrieve.  Suffix is a great line, but I don't get great casting performance with greater then 10lb test.       

[Fishes in trees]

I'm not a fan of swivels in general.  The only spoons that I throw are Dixie Jet jigging spoons.   I consider a ball bearing swivel part of the package with that bait.   Wouldn't throw one without it.   This winter I acquired some heavier in-line spinners.  (3/8 & half ounce).  I remember about line twist  from my bank fishing days and I installed ball bearing swivels on those baits as well.  If I'm using swivels I prefer to attach them with appropriate size split rings rather than snap swivels.   Swivels will help quite a bit with the line twist issue, but as mentioned previously it won't stop it.

The only sure thing for getting line twist out of spinning reel spools is to let it all out, drag it for a while ( no weight on the end ) and reel it back up under pressure.   It is much easier to do this from a boat, but dragging it across a field works.

[voxborealis]

8 hours ago, GetFishorDieTryin said:

 If there are any gaps at the top of the stack, it doesn't matter how well you manage the line your going have issues.  Taking up slack line also causes wind knots.  Make sure when you take up the line after the cast it has some tension on it.  

 

Yeah..went out today and looked closely at the spool--it is stacked funky. Must be built up over the last few weeks. I'll definitely have to respool, or at least let out a whole bunch and rewind under pressure. 

[papajoe222]

Add a quality ball bearing swivel to the end of your leader when fishing spoons or in-line spinners. Another option when using a short leader, is to use a swivel when attaching the leader vs. a knot. 

[GetFishorDieTryin]

15 hours ago, voxborealis said:

 

Yeah..went out today and looked closely at the spool--it is stacked funky. Must be built up over the last few weeks. I'll definitely have to respool, or at least let out a whole bunch and rewind under pressure. 

The line doesnt have to stack perfectly straight.  If the lines stacks just a little top heavy that's fine.  Gaps and hour glassing is what you have to watch out for.  The LTs manage line pretty well for the most part, but all of the issues I've heard of can be resolved by using the washers.  However, I don't recommend using the washers unless you have too. 

[voxborealis]

Washers? Not heard of this, will have to look.

 

I unspooled all the remaining braid and dragged it through a field then respelled under pressure. Again it is not stacked quite right. It's not hour-glassed but somewhat the opposite: higher in the middle with "notches" at the top and bottom (see photos). This works fine for awhile but eventually some line will get caught up in the top or bottom and then it will start to dig into itself. I can also see some loose/crossed line even though I respelled under pretty good pressure.

 

I love braid, but life was easier back in the mono days!

[Junk Fisherman]

I've had issues with wind knots.  For my small swimbait rod I went to straight 7 lb Gamma Touch.  Without the braid/leader knot, wind knots are practically eliminated.  Seems like my wind knot issues with braid are worse when I am trying to make long casts.  

[jimmyjoe]

5 hours ago, voxborealis said:

 

   That line lay looks extremely funky! I'd say that either the pressure you used was not enough, the line roller needs oil, or you have trouble with the oscillation gear in the reel. I'd respool under more pressure first. Does a friend of yours have a similarly-sized reel that you can use as a check for the line lay?      jj

[bulldog1935]

I think that's about as good as it gets with braid using deep spools made for mono.  

 

My Tica Libra SX3000 (think 5000 size) gets a better result with very slight hour-glass. 

15-lb 832, would be a better result with heavier braid, though this casts out of sight.  

This size is heavy, I've always lauded Tica line management.  

My Tica Libra SX 1500 gets perfection on even 6-lb 832 and slightly smaller PE#0.5 X-braid.  

 

while my Tica Samira 2500 worm-drive lays braid with more hour-glass, still works, but is absolute perfection with 10-lb Tatsu

 

All 3 Ticas were bought when Amazon was listing each model with half-price loss leader.  

[NHBull]

Line twist is your problem.

That said, "wind tamer" is a great braid that helps tame the beast.

I am not suggesting you spend more $$$$$" but when it needs to be replaced, consider it.

[TnRiver46]

The wind can tie a knot? 

[voxborealis]

4 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

I think that's about as good as it gets with braid using deep spools made for mono.  

 

Phew, that's what I was thinking/hoping. I've spooled and respelled several times and this is about as good as it gets. It's tradeoffs. I like using braid though that means I need to pay more attention to line management and probably have to accept the periodic birds nest when the line digs into itself over time on the spool. Otherwise, I suppose two options are: put a lot more mono backing and  a lot less braid on the spool (maybe run only 50 to 75 yards of braid as opposed to the entire 150 yards...after all, I am casting from shore not deep trolling). Or, just go back to mono.

 

Anyway, thanks for all of the advice. It really sounds like a combination of line twist (me not managing this) and reeling in slack line from windy days/tossing soft stuff/throwing big casts with lots of arc/etc (also me not managing this). And shorter leaders with the micro guides is probably not a bad idea, either.

 

Give me enough time, I'll get the line right. Now, if only I can manage to get some bites...