The P2 bearing for Lew's Tournament Pro

[newapti5]

I just couldn't contain my curiosity and bought the Lew's Tournament Pro to try out their P2 pinion support.  Even though it's not 2 bearings, it still feels pretty smooth, so far. Let's see how that goes in long term.  

 

While my reel is still relatively new, I want to upgrade the P2 bushing to see if there's any improvement in smoothness,  in short and long term. However, I just couldn't find any information about the bushing size on Internet, so I went through it myself.  There's no surprise there though. They use the same size of bearing as Tatula's pinion bearing, the MR128 8x12x3.5.  It can be rather easily accessed, and this is just for Lew's Tournament Pro. I don't know about Lew's other P2 pinion support reels. 

 

While I was at it, I noticed the fit between the bushing inner diameter and pinion gear is not as tight as Daiwa's or Shimano's. There's a rather large gap between those two part, at least 0.5mm. You can clearly wiggle the pinion gear a bit while it's in place. Maybe that tolerance is acceptable. I know sometimes you need certain tolerance at certain place. Or maybe it's a manufacturing cost issue. But a gap that big just makes me wonder, how's that bushing going to keep the pinion gear well in alignment? Any thoughts? 

 

[bulldog1935]

I put my P2-pinion SP through some serious big fish work last week, and the reel fared well - still buttery smooth.  

 

took this photo before with the open spindle cap when I was working on spool bearings, to show the spindle gap.  

 

But would be hard-pressed to call the pinion and bushing any kind of gap.  

It won't work with a press-fit, since the pinion needs to slide horizontally.  I didn't check, but I suspect the pinion gear is tapered.  

 

 

[newapti5]

24 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

It won't work with a press-fit, since the pinion needs to slide horizontally.

 

That's a good point. I thought so as well. But still, I think the tolerance between them is a little too large for sliding movement. A Tatula, or a Curado, has a better fit between that pinion gear and pinion bearing at the same position, especially Shimano's reels, almost a press-fit.  But anyway, it's good to hear it won't affect the smoothness in long term; I am just curious how it works. Thanks! 

[Deleted account]

"almost press fit" will be breakfast banter at the bike shop...

[Lmsmbassaddict]

4 hours ago, BassWhole! said:

"almost press fit" will be breakfast banter at the bike shop...

In the world of precision machining, it's a little more than breakfast banter. 

 

I gave up on lew's after I found out they moved there facilities over to China and aren't doing anything in the old Korean factories with the people who have 60 years of experience. You can move all the best machining tools and hobbing machines you want, without those same knowledgeable people putting these things together it gets lost in the sauce. 

 

This might just be a rumor but I'm pretty sure I got the lowdown not only from there new boxes but from insiders on another forum. Why would they do that? ?

[DomQ]

I liked the few Lews reels I've had in the past. The one big thing that made me sell them all off was the fact you can pay so much and not get a proper pinion support bearing. Then you hit the thumb bar down without the spool in the reel, the pinion just flops around, but even some lower end daiwa and shimano reels come with bearing supported pinions. Just my 2 cents.

[bulldog1935]

and still, without P2 pinion, but 3 HD unshielded spool and spindle bearings swapped-in, my Super Duty G fishes on and on and out-casts every other reel I fish around it.  

 

 

  

 

I'm sure it's safe to say P2 pinion is an upgrade to drive-life durability in Lew's reels.  While the performance and durability of my long-lived Super Duty G that doesn't have P2 pinion says something good about Lew's LFS reel frame quality.  

[Deleted account]

6 hours ago, Lmsmbassaddict said:

In the world of precision machining, it's a little more than breakfast banter. 

Press fit or interference fit has recognized tolerances in different applications . "almost press fit" is not a thing. The banter will be a result of a well known design flaws in many press fit bottom brackets (the bearings that allow the crank to turn) in bicycles. They are (certainly not by design) "almost press fit" when they shouldn't be. 

I have worked with several machinists who were nothing short of magicians. Most are kookie as heck, but I guess that goes with the territory. We are having mangu for breakfast and Shimano bashing.

I wish I could type what I'm getting over my shoulder. Time to make some $$$.

[galyonj]

21 minutes ago, BassWhole! said:

I have worked with several machinists who were nothing short of magicians. Most are kookie as heck, but I guess that goes with the territory.

 

Good machinists are a lot like good developers. Observe from a safe distance and let them work. Do not startle them. If you have to approach, throw their favorite snack into the opposite corner of their cage.

[galyonj]

11 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

Like, what was there before?  Nothing?

 

Basically, yeah. I don't have any reels with the new pinion, but looking at the schematics, the only differences I see in that pinion is that the Tournament MB pinion is shorter and unsupported, and the Tournament MP (and, I assume, other P2-equipped reels) are slightly longer and have a bushing that fits inside the clutch cam (see part 33 on both diagrams). Note the absence of part 155 in the Tournament MB diagram, and the design change for part 40 in the MP diagram.

 

Tournament MB: 

 

 

Tournament MP:

 

[newapti5]

1 hour ago, BaitFinesse said:

Also is that really the P2 bushing thing?  I thought it was standard practice to but a bearing there on every reel?  I literally have $17 Chinese reels with a bearing there.  Even if there is just going to be a bushing there then how is that new?  Like, what was there before?  Nothing?  I don't understand.

 

Yes I have one of those cheap Chinese reels too, which is equipped with dual bearing supported pinion gear, but feels like a coffee grinder when you turn the handle. Dual support means nothing without a solid frame and precise cut to support it.  On the other hand, Lew's and Abu's reels have been going on with only one pinion gear bearing for years without serious problems. 

 

[newapti5]

13 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

Precisely why this strikes me as a gimmick.  Do you REALLY need it and then you go though all the trouble of adding it and it's a bushing at that.  I swear its just to get an acronym on the box.  

 

IMHO, dual support is not necessary for light duty fishing, most bass fishing being one of them, given the size of fish I caught anyway. But for other heavier duty fishing, with the amount of pressure put on the gears, dual support pinion gear, and dual support of any turning parts for that matter, is essential for longevity.  

5 hours ago, DomQ said:

I liked the few Lews reels I've had in the past. The one big thing that made me sell them all off was the fact you can pay so much and not get a proper pinion support bearing. Then you hit the thumb bar down without the spool in the reel, the pinion just flops around, but even some lower end daiwa and shimano reels come with bearing supported pinions. Just my 2 cents.

 

This Lew's Tournament Pro is still made in Korea, if that matters. 

 

[Lmsmbassaddict]

15 hours ago, BaitFinesse said:

Doyo has both Chinese and Korean based factories and has had then since at least the last gen Pro Q reel that was a Chinese built Doyo.  Mine was made there at least.  From my understanding the cheaper spec reels are made in China with cheap labor similar to how lower end Daiwas come from Thailand and the high end reels are made in Japan.  

 

How did Lew's have any say in where Doyo makes their reels?  I would assume they just buy whatever Doyo offers.  Maybe in negotiations Lews wanted a lower price per unit and the only way to do this was to make some platforms that would have otherwise been Korean built, made in China?  Business is weird like that.

 

However they do it, made in china is a HUGE turn off. 

5 minutes ago, Lmsmbassaddict said:

 

However they do it, made in china is a HUGE turn off. 

And I'm fairly confident that my first pro qualifier which was the last model said made in Korea. Either way, outsourcing to China isn't something I'm holding much faith in.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

The Doyo variant reels have been around a long time without any pinion bearings. They’ve lasted and some upper end models pretty smooth. Are pinion bearings “required “ obviously not. Do they improve smoothness and longevity? Arguably, yes. Daiwa had dual support bearings in nearly all their models in the 2000s. They went the other direction in the Tatula era, meanwhile Shimano comes out with X ship, much ado about nothing new. Now P2 is supposedly innovative. Welcome to the party even if you’re two decades late. The industry is very competitive and the reel companies feel compelled to change for the sake of change and market every change as innovation. They all make good performing and durable reels, budget, entry level price points being some exceptions. 

[PhishLI]

On 5/19/2021 at 3:30 PM, newapti5 said:

There's a rather large gap between those two part, at least 0.5mm.

Honest question: You actually measured a nearly .020" difference between the O.D. of the pinion and the I.D. of the bushing, or is this just a guesstimate? Please let me know. I really don't wanna rip mine down right now.

[newapti5]

[PhishLI]

28 minutes ago, newapti5 said:

OK. I'll dig out my Kennedy. I'll try to report on Sunday. My TP could use a lube job anyway.

[PhishLI]

The  I.D. of the bushing is .320". The O.D. of the turned diameter of the pinion that passes through it is .310". While that may seem to matter, it doesn't. That side of the pinion is fully supported by the spool's bearing while cranking under load. The pinion has a counter bored section beyond the pin slots that receives a male section of the spool's shaft. So, the pinion piggybacks the spool bearing on that side. Instead of two discreet pinion bearings Lew's chose this hybrid approach which works perfectly fine. On the opposite side, the pinion's smaller turned diameter fits into the side plate bearing with a tolerance of .0005".  The spools' shaft is smaller than the pinion's through-hole by .014", so there's zero contact here during free spool. In the end the pinion is in fact supported by a bearing on each end under load.

 

So what's this bushing's purpose then? As far as I can tell it's there to keep the pinion from flopping around while the spool's removed and if the handle is turned at any point. It's a safeguard. The bushing allows for a max deflection of the pinion from the main gear of .005". I imagine that this amount of play is fine to protect both gears in a circumstance where zero load is present and someone's daffy enough to spin the handle while the spool is removed.

 

Anyway, don't worry about tracking down a bearing. You/we're good.

 

 

[newapti5]

9 hours ago, PhishLI said:

So what's this bushing's purpose then? As far as I can tell it's there to keep the pinion from flopping around while the spool's removed and if the handle is turned at any point.

 

Thanks for all the detailed info and measurements. Great insight on the purpose of that bushing. Now I think it's similar to what Quantum does to their reels. Instead of putting a bushing there, Quantum just uses part of the frame to limit the pinion gear's movement while spool is removed. 

 

The reason I brought up this issue in the first place, is that I don't think this P2 thing is exactly same as Shimano's X-ship. X-ship reels have a very tight tolerance between those 2 pinion bearings and the pinion gear. Yes, the pinion gear also piggybacks the spool, but without the spool, the pinion gear is still tightly hold in place with those two bearings.  When being cranked, a X-ship reel makes the pinion gear almost like a continuous beam with more than 2 supports , which can support greater loads theoretically.  In comparison, this P2 supported pinion gear is still a regular beam with 2 supports. 

 

But of course all these are on paper. In reality, I have some Abu reels outlast some Shimano's in smoothness. 

 

 

[mcipinkie]

I think someone (or maybe a lot of someone's) needs to go fishing.

 

[PhishLI]

1 hour ago, mcipinkie said:

I think someone needs to go fishing.

?

[PhishLI]

5 hours ago, newapti5 said:

The reason I brought up this issue in the first place, is that I don't think this P2 thing is exactly same as Shimano's X-ship.

Correct. It's not, but it's just as effective, AFAIK. In cases where there's a spool bearing that sits in a bearing pocket casted into the frame there is no shaft flex, therefore no friction. This also allows for an aluminum spool shaft as there is no interaction with the pinion's bore. Either way, Lew's and Quantum's approach works fine here. There is negligible radial play where the pinion mates to the spool's shaft. The spool's/pinion's bearing is only about 1/4" outside of where a discreet pinion bearing mounted in the frame would sit, and there's little chance of flexing the pinion over it's length.

 

Regarding the TP LFS, it lacks a crankshaft bearing on top of the roller bearing which is something you get from Quantum beginning with the Accurist. Whether that adds up to trouble down the line or not is unknown. I've fished mine plenty. It stills feels fine. Last season I thrashed my Quantum ICONs. Really tried to break them. Heavy veg. Big wake baits. Frogging pad fields. They still feel great, and the fact that Lew's/Doyo copied Quantum's/Banax pinion support strategy gives me hope that all is well and will probably remain that way.

 

 

[newapti5]

On 5/21/2021 at 2:11 PM, newapti5 said:

 

A little follow-up: After I put in the MR128 bearing ordered from Aliexpress, the tolerance is noticeably smaller, and I believe this bearing is now providing support while under load. So yes, personally I'd recommend to upgrade Lew's P2 support to dual bearings support if possible, and preferably to a ceramic hybrid or other corrosion resistant bearing given its location.