Is it possible to cast too Hard?

[CrankFate]

When you cast like you are aiming for 500 yards, with 3/16ths and it clips a leaf on a tree 10 feet up above you, you will find out that the answer is yes. Otherwise, no.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

On 5/19/2021 at 9:44 AM, BassWhole! said:

I suppose it's possible to cast too hard, but distance isn't about casting hard, it's about casting fast, you want to accelerate the rod and lure. But if you are dunking the lure in front of you, it's mostly technique that is at fault.

 

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

It’s more about good mechanics than brute force, so yes you can cast too hard from that perspective. Casting has elements of throwing and hitting. Timing the release point  is like throwing. Too early you get a sky shot that slows rapidly and wastes distance in a vertical direction. Too late and you see what happens. Like hitting, smooth acceleration and follow through harnesses the power of the rod (bat or golf club). Let the rod load and do the work. Whipping the rod and forcing the cast is asking for trouble. 

[Deleted account]

32 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

Fast casting and hard casting aren't the same thing?  It's possible to cast slow but hard?

 

 

Velocity and power are indeed different things...

Can one type *****?

[Catt]

46 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

I need examples. I don't understand.  When I put some velocity into my bait on a cast I have to exert more power into my cast.  

 

Rod velocity, as in rod speed 

 

Y'all need to learn how to let the rod cast, not your arm, it does a lot better job.

[Bankc]

23 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

I need examples. I don't understand.  When I put some velocity into my bait on a cast I have to exert more power into my cast.  

While you do need more power to cast further, adding more power alone won't necessarily make you cast further.  

 

Casting is more about timing of your joints to the rod's flex than shear power applied.  So as long as your timing remains in sync, then adding more power will add more distance.  Though if adding power causes your timing to become off, then adding more power will take away distance.  And since the rod and lure don't weigh a whole lot, you don't need to apply a whole lot of power before you muscles reach their maximum speed.  From there, it's all about timing your release.

[Deleted account]

The rod is both a lever and a spring, with proper timing, the amount of power required is minimized. As stated above, when in sync, (as in constructive resonance) it will transfer the energy through the rod to the lure. What happens when folks try to cast "hard" is either they come off this curve, get jerky, or in the case of BCs, add too much energy in relation to the start up resistance of the spool (a different discussion) which leads to negative results in both distance and accuracy. 

[Deleted account]

38 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

 Glad we all got here.

Did we though?....

[Capt No Fish]

Thank you everyone for this great chat.  I think I got a lot of valuable takes aways from it.  Its not so much how my reel is set up within reason, How I set up there seems to be ok since my roll cast, boat to bank and flipping are fine.  

 

It is the way I am casting, being too hurky jerky.  I like that golf analogy it seems to hit home. I need to have a tempo when casting especially in the back swing so the rod can fully load properly.  Maybe its not even a back swing with that push pull technique.

 

More writs less arms.  I am going to try Fishes in trees push pull technique.  This is something I coach the kids at hockey when taking a shot. And be and more patient through the cast.

 

 

[CrankFate]

Just throw every cast like this. Eventually, it will go far.

 

[Cgolf]

On 5/19/2021 at 8:16 AM, bulldog1935 said:

it is definitely possible to cast too hard, and with too much jerk.  

I wrote this for a buddy last week, and edited here for context:  

 

A cast is a ballistic shot - the fastest thing that happens is the lure and spool at release of the lure, and everything slows from there.  Backlash occurs when the spool doesn't slow with the bait and line.  

Every 20% increase in initial velocity doubles cast distance.  

 

When a baitcaster spool starts up, it is always jerked by the lure weight.  Jerk is a physics/engineering measurement - the time-derivative of acceleration, 2nd time derivative of velocity.  

Inertia is a property of rotating mass - resistance to change.  It always takes greater force to start a mass spinning than it does to keep it spinning.  Once it's spinning, greater mass and inertia takes more brake force to slow down.  

The first backlash is Spool Overshoot, caused by the jerk of the bait and inertia of the spool and line mass.  

Heavier weights increase the start-up jerk.  Lighter weights decrease the jerk, but spool mass and inertia limits how far you can cast light weights. 

 

 

I agree with all you wrote and want to say that an easy way for people to learn to limit backlashes with a baitcaster is actually with a fly rod. 
 

The fly rod taught me all about cadence and how to generate a smooth casting move to get maximum distance. The false casts hammer this home. When casting with my baitcasters I will do a micro backcast to load the rod and then smoothly accelerate to produce a nice cast. A roll cast essentially does the same thing. Even a snap cast can be done smoothly, but those are the riskiest casts for me to backlash. The only times I seem to backlash now is when the rod isn’t properly loaded. 

[bulldog1935]

I couldn't be more anti-cadence with a fly rod, and can shoot my RPLX7 with TS-250 to 140', which includes 30' of backing.  (I love the sound of my Allbright knot clicking the guides) but this is one of the few times I use false cast for increased line speed - normal for me is roll-cast, back-cast (here's the line speed), shoot. 

I normally fish cane for trout, and short glass for limestone warmwater creeks. 

I have natural haul, and what most people don't get about fly rod, is your line hand should do more reading and loading than your rod hand - everything you do with your rod hand should be short and smooth.  Probably a skill that comes natural to southpaws. 

I've been fishing fly rods in the dark most of my life, can make a vertical back-cast backed up to a cliff, change-direction mid-cast, always cast across my chest so there's no difference in forward cast or back-cast - I can present either way. 

With those short glass rods, I can make an underhand cast that's akin to skipping to get under cypress overhang - only photo I could come up with, but I've sight-fished bass where the cypress overhang was a foot-and -a-half over 70% of the river channel width. 

Here, I'm fishing with Kevin Townsend, filming an episode of KT Diaries. 

3 days with Frank Smethurst, filming an episode of TU On the Rise

[WRB]

Being a old school bait caster who learned to cast using knuckle buster reels ( the reel handle is engaged to the spool) the casting motion mechanics are critical.

Looking at TV bass fishing videos several pros today have poor casting mechanics. This may have a lot to do with double handed casting. Imo the reel on the back cast should have your thumb pointed at your ear, no further and not pointed back. Your wrist and forearm provide the casting motion, this is the correct mechanics for overhead casting.

Roll cast obviously uses a different casting motion but still using the wrist with the thumb pointed towards your side.

I often see the thumb pointed upwards at the start of the cast keeping the reel spool parallel to the water, this is poor casting mechanics over stressing the elbow tendon.

Long casts are all about rod tip speed not powerful hard casting. Fast smooth casts letting the rod do the lure launching increases distance and accuracy.

Tom  

[Eric 26]

16 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

I couldn't be more anti-cadence with a fly rod, and can shoot my RPLX7 with TS-250 to 140', which includes 30' of backing.  (I love the sound of my Allbright knot clicking the guides) but this is one of the few times I use false cast for increased line speed - normal for me is roll-cast, back-cast (here's the line speed), shoot. 

I normally fish cane for trout, and short glass for limestone warmwater creeks. 

I have natural haul, and what most people don't get about fly rod, is your line hand should do more reading and loading than your rod hand - everything you do with your rod hand should be short and smooth.  Probably a skill that comes natural to southpaws. 

I've been fishing fly rods in the dark most of my life, can make a vertical back-cast backed up to a cliff, change-direction mid-cast, always cast across my chest so there's no difference in forward cast or back-cast - I can present either way. 

With those short glass rods, I can make an underhand cast that's akin to skipping to get under cypress overhang - only photo I could come up with, but I've sight-fished bass where the cypress overhang was a foot-and -a-half over 70% of the river channel width. 

Here, I'm fishing with Kevin Townsend, filming an episode of KT Diaries. 

3 days with Frank Smethurst, filming an episode of TU On the Rise

?I’m going to need someone to translate WTH was just written ?

[Tatulatard]

This has been an interesting read.  I have been practicing the techniques in this thread and I can't say that my distance has increased.  If anything the emphasis on smooth casting has decreased my distance.  A couple observations:

 

My magnetic reels can achieve 90% the same distance with less brake and a softer cast.  This was a great discovery.  

 

My centrifugals DEFINITELY cast further with a hard cast.  

 

My hard cast centrifugals beat out my magnetic when hard cast or soft cast in distance. 

 

Yeah, you can definitely cast a magnetic reel too hard.  A centrifugal reel?  I'm not convinced.

[Choporoz]

It was said above, but I want to emphasize two points.

1.  Learn to use your thumb.  Sure, it'd be cool to always get max distance with no thumb and no backlash, but it isn't realistic to expect to be able to set up and execute 100% of the time. Winds change, angles change, lure weights vary....get your gear dialed in, but always have your thumb on speed dial.

2.  Keep in mind that backlash only happens when spool rotates faster than the line going off.  Lots of things going in in a cast....many variables ...but one simply stated factor.  When the line slows for some reason.....any reason.... but the spool doesn't....you get an overrun. 

 

[bulldog1935]

Of course the OP's questions were answered Last Year, and he hasn't been back on this thread since then. 

@Cgolf brought it back up to comment on my backlash and brake primer, and to bring up fly rod loading (jerk on a fly rod = tailing loop and a pile of line either in front, behind, or draped across you head). 

 

As far as using your thumb, you can't get better than tinkering with one of these from 100 years ago - especially the NLW from the ninteen-teens and 20s (Meek, Shakespeare, Talbot - these were the only reels tournament casters used until they began butchering ball-bearing Ambassadeurs in the late 60s)

 

As far as rod loading goes, baitcaster and spinning couldn't be more different.  I came from LH bait rod and fly rod, and RH spinning rod, which I think is a huge advantage to keep the casting techniques separate.  You can load a spinning rod 100% with jerk and get a long cast.  You can do the same thing with a baitcaster, and backlash any brake on the market. 

 

As far as brakes go, you can totally change the nature of even an Ambassadeur by working on getting spool and line mass and inertia down.  Tuning the tools for the job at hand isn't a crutch. 

[Bazoo]

An excellent thread with many tips and a great amount of information, thanks to all who contributed.

 

I learned baitcasting 25 years ago, and never got really good, then I took about a 12 year hiatus from fishing and just started back earlier this year.

 

I employed a strategy from the concealed carry of a firearm, which is daily practice. With a firearm you practice your draw, and either live or dry firing. I have found that with casting, it's much the same if you want to get to a high level of proficiency.

 

After taking it back up, my thumb picked up where it left off, and with almost daily practice, I'm pretty decent currently. I go for close and mid range accuracy, and occasionally distance. I practice overhand and roll casting and pitching regularly. 

 

I need to start practicing with the spinning reel too, because all the constant baitcasting practice has made me much better there.

 

My favorite thing to practice baitcasting with is an old spinnerbait. Not only does it make a satisfying thump when it hits target, but its nearly snag proof in the yard, which brings a new level of confidence in the lure when throwing it into thicker stuff.

 

 

[Big Hands]

I'll just say this from the get-go.. . . "but what do I know?" 

 

I see our equipment as a system. The rod, reel, line, terminal tackle and the bait all have to work together, and then receive input from the operator to deliver the bait in whatever conditions we find ourselves fishing in.

 

That's a lot of variables. But, if we fish in mild conditions with decent gear and don't need to deliver a bait with the accuracy of a long range sniper, then average gear with average skills will generally get your bait into the water well enough to succeed to some degree.

 

It's when we try to do challenging things that a more refined approach is needed to obtain extraordinary results. Things like extra casting distance, lightweight baits, bulky baits that are also lightweight, casting for distance into the wind. That is when we need to really start to be able to more accurately separate the fly poop from the pepper so to speak with regard to assembling the best combination for a particular set of conditions we're addressing.

 

I have some combos (Daiwa Tatula Elite 7'4" MH/R with a Curado 200k and 15 lbs Big Game) responds well to really putting the wood to it with something like a topwater hardbait (Spook, Sammy, Gunfish type baits), and others don't respond well to that level of input. 

 

I also have a Tatula 7'3" MH/F rod with a Tatula 100 that I use for Carolina rigs that I can really feed it the onions as well, but I use a slightly different movement to load it up due to the 3' to 4' leader. 

 

Throwing the A-rig on the Dobyns 806 is more of a lob affair in comparison. 

[thediscochef]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:59 PM, Bazoo said:

 

My favorite thing to practice baitcasting with is an old spinnerbait. Not only does it make a satisfying thump when it hits target, but its nearly snag proof in the yard, which brings a new level of confidence in the lure when throwing it into thicker stuff.

 

 

There are companies that make practice weights, but these days I either use a clapped out lipless with the hooks removed or a water gremlin dipsey swivel that's been heatshrunk to cover the brass bits. I have enough cracked up red eye shads to last a lifetime of practice at this point lol

 

One of the points I read above described a centrifugal braking system as being more capable of handling force? I completely disagree. My lews tournament pro snapped off a brake shoe on a hard cast. It was a bad cast but not one that should have broken the reel. That would never happen the same way with mag brakes. That said, the mag brakes aren't as responsive as the centrifugal brakes and I backlash more with the mag brakes. But I'm also mostly bomb casting; as good as I am at long distance my short game is honestly laughable 

[Bazoo]

I've always thought that my short game was decent, but I realized the other day that it is better than decent. All that yard practice really pays off when you're fishing a bankline that is covered with brush from 30 feet. I was able to get right at the edge of the brush or under it and my fishing buddy was casting in the middle mostly.

[greentrout]

 

[Tennessee Boy]

Is it possible to cast too hard?

 

Yes,  I do it all the time.

[you]

4 minutes ago, Tennessee Boy said:

Yes,  I do it all the time.

 

Keep it up--this is how I find most of my hard baits!

[WRB]

1 hour ago, greentrout said:

 

^^^^This^^^^??

Tom