Is it possible to cast too Hard?

[Capt No Fish]

Yet again another idiot who can't cast with the same old question.  I am not an expert and of course it's the beginning of the year so I am still getting the rust off.  But I was wondering if my birds nest issue is from trying to cast too hard.  My roll casts and moderate cast have no issue.  I have the tensioner and brake set so that when I let the lure down and it hits the deck it stops just like the Denny Brauer video.  But then when I want to chuck something out there like my crank baits  or swim jig (3/8) I always birds nest.  I swing like it's the home run derby trying to get distance but then spent my time picking the nest.  I guess I do that because I feel like I cast in feet and not yards.  I hear people say they can cast something a country mile.  To me that means the ability to spool my reel on the cast.  Maybe my perspective is all wrong.

 

Generally using 15lb Fluro-cote, 10 lb mono (for cranks) or 40 lb braid.  I can do this easily with my Medium Moderate or a Medium Heavy fast depending on my application.  And I can't cast over head to save my live.  It's a straight shot straight down to the water when I try.  All my casts are from the side.

 

So am I just trying to cast to hard?

[bulldog1935]

it is definitely possible to cast too hard, and with too much jerk.  

I wrote this for a buddy last week, and edited here for context:  

 

A cast is a ballistic shot - the fastest thing that happens is the lure and spool at release of the lure, and everything slows from there.  Backlash occurs when the spool doesn't slow with the bait and line.  

Every 20% increase in initial velocity doubles cast distance.  

 

When a baitcaster spool starts up, it is always jerked by the lure weight.  Jerk is a physics/engineering measurement - the time-derivative of acceleration, 2nd time derivative of velocity.  

Inertia is a property of rotating mass - resistance to change.  It always takes greater force to start a mass spinning than it does to keep it spinning.  Once it's spinning, greater mass and inertia takes more brake force to slow down.  

The first backlash is Spool Overshoot, caused by the jerk of the bait and inertia of the spool and line mass.  

Heavier weights increase the start-up jerk.  Lighter weights decrease the jerk, but spool mass and inertia limits how far you can cast light weights. 

When your cast is approaching its highest vertical point - the apogee - gravity is slowing it.  Here, it's most susceptible to wind, and the second backlash is called Wind Backlash.  

Often, mid-cast on long casts, the spool will "get fuzzy" with incipient wind backlash, then as the bait crosses apogee and gravity accelerates it a bit, the pending backlash will self-correct.  

(One more notch of linear brake here will eliminate that wind backlash.) 

 

The 3rd backlash is really simple - when the lure hits, the spool needs to stop.  

_______________________

 

There are four types of baitcaster brakes.  Real world casting is usually a nonlinear mix of 2 or more of these brakes.  

 

Your thumb on the spool is a nonlinear force that you modulate - the longest possible cast uses only thumb for brakes.  

 

Spool end tension is a constant force on the spool.  You can overcome all 3 types of backlash with spool tension, and get the shortest possible cast result.  

In general, the less spool tension you use, the longer your cast.  With good spool brakes and skills, you only adjust the spindle tension to dial-out side play in the spool.  

 

Mag brakes are linear - that is, the force they exert increases with spool speed in a straight line.  The slope of the line is controlled by the distance from magnets to any conductive metal (Lenz effect), and brake dials on reel palm plate set this distance.  Their best effect is against wind backlash, and can get the longest possible casts with the lightest lures. 

 

Centrifugal brakes are nonlinear.  They exert a centrifugal force on the spool, respond to acceleration and jerk, and their best effect is limiting start-up overshoot. 

When you get into Daiwa SV, that's a non-linear mag brake.  Acceleration and jerk causes the brake rotor to ride a ramp outward, and deeper into the magnet field.  When forces equalize on the spool and brake rotor, a spring retracts the rotor, and the mag force reduces and returns to linear.  

From what I've heard, even DC brakes will backlash if you cast with too much jerk.  

[gunsinger]

Excellent info @bulldog1935.

 

I find that when I'm casting for distance, there will often be a little professional overrun.  I manage it with a little thumb pressure and by raising the rod upwards to compensate.  Usually, it will sort itself out between the two actions. Wind direction and velocity definitely plays a part in it.  My most successful long casts occur when I use more wrist and less arm.

[Capt No Fish]

11 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

it is definitely possible to cast too hard, and with too much jerk.  

I wrote this for a buddy last week, and edited here for context:  

 

A cast is a ballistic shot - the fastest thing that happens is the lure and spool at release of the lure, and everything slows from there.  Backlash occurs when the spool doesn't slow with the bait and line.  

Every 20% increase in initial velocity doubles cast distance.  

 

When a baitcaster spool starts up, it is always jerked by the lure weight.  Jerk is a physics/engineering measurement - the time-derivative of acceleration, 2nd time derivative of velocity.  

Inertia is a property of rotating mass - resistance to change.  It always takes greater force to start a mass spinning than it does to keep it spinning.  Once it's spinning, greater mass and inertia takes more brake force to slow down.  

The first backlash is spool overshoot, caused by the jerk of the bait and inertia of the spool and line mass.  

Heavier weights increase the start-up jerk.  Lighter weights decrease the jerk, but spool mass and inertia limits how far you can cast light weights. 

When your cast is approaching its highest vertical point - the apogee - gravity is slowing it.  Here, it's most susceptible to wind, and the second backlash is called wind backlash.  

Often, mid-cast on long casts, the spool will "get fuzzy" with incipient wind backlash, then as the bait crosses apogee and gravity accelerates it a bit, the pending backlash will self-correct.  

(One more notch of linear brake here will eliminate that wind backlash.)  The nice thing about drift fishing, the wind is always helping your cast.  

 

The 3rd backlash is really simple - when the lure hits, the spool needs to stop.  

_______________________

 

There are four types of baitcaster brakes.  Real world casting is usually a nonlinear mix of 2 or more of these brakes.  

 

Your thumb on the spool is a nonlinear force that you modulate - the longest possible cast uses only thumb for brakes.  

 

Spool end tension is a constant force on the spool.  You can overcome all 3 types of backlash with spool tension, and get the shortest possible cast result.  

In general, the less spool tension you use, the longer your cast.  With good spool brakes and skills, you only adjust the spindle tension to dial-out side play in the spool.  

Until you get there, you probably want to adjust spindle tension every time you change lure weight the way I showed you.  

 

Mag brakes are linear - that is, the force they exert increases with spool speed in a straight line.  The slope of the line is controlled by the distance from magnets to any conductive metal (Lenz effect), and brake dials on reel palm plate set this distance.  Their best effect is against wind backlash, and can get the longest possible casts with the lightest lures. 

 

Centrifugal brakes are nonlinear.  They exert a centrifugal force on the spool, respond to acceleration and jerk, and their best effect is limiting start-up overshoot. 

When you get into Daiwa SV, that's a non-linear mag brake.  Acceleration and jert causes the brake rotor to ride a ramp outward, and deeper into the magnet field.  When forces equalize on the spool and brake rotor, a spring retracts the rotor, and the mag force reduces and returns to linear.  

From what I've heard, even DC brakes will backlash if you cast with too much jerk.  

 

That you for the very thorough explanation.   Based on this I am experiencing the mid-cast backlash.  It will backlash while the bait is in flight.  I try to catch it with my thumb but I am often to late for the correction.

[bulldog1935]

21 hours ago, Capt No Fish said:

 

That you for the very thorough explanation.   Based on this I am experienced the mid-cast backlash.  It will backlash while the bait is in flight.  I try to catch it with my thumb but I am often to late for the correction.

good linear mag brake is king for long casts and eliminating wind backlash.  

When you get that incipient mid-cast backlash, you solve it by adding one click of mag brake.  

This is my oldest ,longest-service, and longest-casting LP baitcaster, Super Duty G

 

[Capt No Fish]

Just now, BaitFinesse said:

What reel?

I am using a Lew Tournament MP, Standard Speed Spool or my Kastking Royal Legend.    I can do it equally on all of them.  

 

I use the Tournament MP for the Crank Baits and the others for everything else I might use.  Chatter Baits, Swim Jigs  basically everything else.

 

I have a separate Tournament MP that I put on a Falcon Weightless worm rod.  That is new for this year and haven't used it much but I am not having many issues with that but that falls into a roll cast for me which I do fine.

[Deleted account]

I suppose it's possible to cast too hard, but distance isn't about casting hard, it's about casting fast, you want to accelerate the rod and lure. But if you are dunking the lure in front of you, it's mostly technique that is at fault.

[Capt No Fish]

9 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

good linear mag brake is king for long casts and eliminating wind backlash

 

Will I lost distance if I set the Mag brakes at 10 vs 5 say?  It could just me lack of knowledge but I was under the impression that if I set the brake to high it will limit the distance.  I know the tensioner will, correct?

2 minutes ago, BassWhole! said:

I suppose it's possible to cast too hard, but distance isn't about casting hard, it's about casting fast, you want to accelerate the rod and lure. But if you are dunking the lure in front of you, it's mostly technique that is at fault.

Is it better to cast overhead or am I fine keeping with the side or swing type cast?  I don't dunk on the side just overhead.

[bulldog1935]

I always start high and dial down until I get the incipient wind backlash, then take that last notch back.  

My reel is in a 1/4- and 3/8-oz niche, and usually stays set about 50% 

 

On overhead casts, you might be surprised by how you can improve simply thinking aim up.  

[Deleted account]

3 minutes ago, Capt No Fish said:

Is it better to cast overhead or am I fine keeping with the side or swing type cast?  I don't dunk on the side just overhead.

Better? I dunno, but when bass fishing I hardly ever overhead cast, but being competent with all sorts of casts (particularly the ones you use most) is always a good idea. 

[NavyVet1204]

28 minutes ago, Capt No Fish said:

 

That you for the very thorough explanation.   Based on this I am experiencing the mid-cast backlash.  It will backlash while the bait is in flight.  I try to catch it with my thumb but I am often to late for the correction.

Same here, however I am mostly lucky enough that there is still enough flight time in the lure that the backlash corrects itself as stated. My most prevalent backlashes occur from too much force in the beginning and trying to correct too late such as a tree limb jumping out to grab my lure lol

[bulldog1935]

Lew's centrifugal brake

 

[Capt No Fish]

12 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

I always start high and dial down until I get the incipient wind backlash, then take that last notch back.  

My reel is in a 1/4- and 3/8-oz niche, and usually stays set about 50% 

 

On overhead casts, you might be surprised by how you can improve simply thinking aim up.  

I will give that a try.  Right now I cast like a hockey stick in that I cast from the side and point my tip at the target for my aim.

12 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

Remove the non handle side plate on the Lews and look at the side of the spool.  Those pins are the centrifugal brakes.  If you can slide them up and down with your finger then they are on.  The ones locked in place are off.  How many are on?  

I have only tried with one and then set the mag break about 5 - 7.  I still need to try to dial that in some more.  I bought the Tournament MP so that I have both the mag and centrifugal  so that I can try and fix my issue.  I am hoping to get into crank baits this year and hone my skill with those.

[Capt No Fish]

37 minutes ago, BaitFinesse said:

Energy in and energy out.  If you want to bomb a bait you need to give it a bunch of energy casting hard.  For a braking system you want a non linear brake that will deal with the massive surge in energy in the spool upon release then quickly fade away allowing the spool to spin on free spool with your thumb on stand by.  Compact and heavy baits that sail through the air also aid in this.

 

https://youtu.be/f6MSXWqA8B8?t=191

I definitely swing a lot harder then this guy in the video.  I swing like trying to hit a fastball. You can hear the rod whooshing by as I swing. 

[Capt No Fish]

Just now, BaitFinesse said:

That's a centrifugal brake they use.  That's the externally adjustable centrifugal brake.  I believe OP's reel has the dual brake 4 pin variety.  Not super famialr with Lews.  Too many similar BPS sounding names.

Correct.  I have 4 pins in the spool, then there are magnetic brake adjustment on the outside.

[Fishes in trees]

For most casts outside of a pitch I make my casts two handed.   Seems to work for me - a sort of push/pull - where the top hand does the pushing and the bottom hand does the pulling.  I think it is possible to over power a cast and that is when major back lashes happen to me.

 

I've owned a couple of Curado DC's for two years now and I use them mostly to throw spinnerbaits.  These baits seldom fly smoothly through the wind and when I was learning bait casters, these baits cause me more back lashes than all the other baits put together.

Anyway, once I got my DC reels adjusted I've added an average of 20 to 30 feet of distance that I'm getting - same rod and same amount of force.  You can back lash these reels and that happens when you try to apply too much force and ignore technique.

[A-Jay]

2 hours ago, Capt No Fish said:

Yet again another idiot who can't cast with the same old question.  I am not an expert and of course it's the beginning of the year so I am still getting the rust off.  But I was wondering if my birds nest issue is from trying to cast too hard.  My roll casts and moderate cast have no issue.  I have the tensioner and brake set so that when I let the lure down and it hits the deck it stops just like the Denny Brauer video.  But then when I want to chuck something out there like my crank baits  or swim jig (3/8) I always birds nest.  I swing like it's the home run derby trying to get distance but then spent my time picking the nest.  I guess I do that because I feel like I cast in feet and not yards.  I hear people say they can cast something a country mile.  To me that means the ability to spool my reel on the cast.  Maybe my perspective is all wrong.

 

Generally using 15lb Fluro-cote, 10 lb mono (for cranks) or 40 lb braid.  I can do this easily with my Medium Moderate or a Medium Heavy fast depending on my application.  And I can't cast over head to save my live.  It's a straight shot straight down to the water when I try.  All my casts are from the side.

 

So am I just trying to cast to hard?

IMO, It's sort of hard to tell for sure without watching you actually do it.

You've gotten great info so far regarding casting technique and reel set up,

both pretty vital to casting success with revolving spool reels.

I can't add much to that.

However I'm a 'watch it happen' type learner.

So if you are too, perhaps this clip can help.

For reference, I'm casting a 3/4 oz spinnerbait with a Shimano Calcutta 200D reel,

spooled with 15 lb FC mounted on a 7'4" MH composite rod - 

Been a two hand caster my whole life; I let the rod do the work.

It works for me.

Fish Hard & Good Luck

A-Jay

 

 

[bulldog1935]

2 hours ago, Capt No Fish said:

Correct.  I have 4 pins in the spool, then there are magnetic brake adjustment on the outside.

 

That's the exact brake that was on the Custom Inshore I donated to my bro, Lou.  

And of course, the one I never photographed.  

Kinda funny, explaining that brake to him is the part I edited out of my first post on this thread.  

I had it in 1/8 oz niche, and set up an SP to do better in that spot.  (searching Lew's spools is what brought me to this forum)

It's a really good brake combination for big weights - the niche where I'd never replace my Super Duty (except maybe for a new G3, or maybe a Daiwa SV).  

[gim]

I find that when I make fluid, consistent motion to make a cast it turns out better than when I try to bomb one with more power. It’s like swinging a golf club for me - if it’s choppy and inconsistent, it’s not a good swing. When I try to rip the cover off the golf ball, it rarely results in a good shot.

[Deephaven]

Needing that extra foot is a major cause of a borked cast.

[islandbass]

15 hours ago, Capt No Fish said:

Yet again another idiot who can't cast with the same old question.  I am not an expert and of course it's the beginning of the year so I am still getting the rust off.  But I was wondering if my birds nest issue is from trying to cast too hard.  My roll casts and moderate cast have no issue.  I have the tensioner and brake set so that when I let the lure down and it hits the deck it stops just like the Denny Brauer video.  But then when I want to chuck something out there like my crank baits  or swim jig (3/8) I always birds nest.  I swing like it's the home run derby trying to get distance but then spent my time picking the nest.  I guess I do that because I feel like I cast in feet and not yards.  I hear people say they can cast something a country mile.  To me that means the ability to spool my reel on the cast.  Maybe my perspective is all wrong.

 

Generally using 15lb Fluro-cote, 10 lb mono (for cranks) or 40 lb braid.  I can do this easily with my Medium Moderate or a Medium Heavy fast depending on my application.  And I can't cast over head to save my live.  It's a straight shot straight down to the water when I try.  All my casts are from the side.

 

So am I just trying to cast to hard?

I’d say it’s your mechanics assuming the reel is set properly to the lure. 
 

Ask yourself if you are truly allowing the rod to be properly loaded by the lure’s weight BEFORE you even think you bring your your forward during the cast. 
 

I can cast mega hard and fast but I ensure my rod is properly loaded and away my lure sails without a single loop of overrun nor the potential for one. 
 

With that said, it is less necessary to make an ultra hard or super fast cast to maximize distance.  Nope. Waste of energy. Learn to properly load the rod so that your rod and reel do all the work. IMHO, a properly made cast, i.e., a cast in which the angler makes the rod and reel do all the work, will make farther casts with less effort and energy, which in turn allows the angler to more more casts in an outing with less fatigue. More casts with less work. 
 

There is one exception or one factor that constrains this and that is the aerodynamics of the lure at the end of the cast. 
 

A 1/2 oz. spoon is going to cast farther and with less chance of an overrun at the end of the cast than a spinnerbait of the same weight. Occasionally, the blades of the spinnerbait and slow the lure down in flight while the spool is still spinning faster than the line can come off the spool. This is not a problem. This is easily resolved by using your thumb to feather the spool to a slower speed to compensate. 
 

So I’d guess you are not casting too fast in as much as casting with improper mechanics. 
 

Casting hard with bad mechanics doesn’t work.

 

Casting hard with good mechanics can work. But why use so much energy to do that when casting efficiently gives you max casting distance with less effort? That is the question.

 

I am speaking from experience gained through using Shimano  Curados,  Cardiff, Pfleuger Trion (yup, the original first gen still in use) and an Abu G Round reel. 

[Catt]

Y'all over complicating a simple process!

 

First rods cast, reels hold line

 

A rod that is too stiff for the lure weight will not load up properly & will not achieve proper distances.

 

The cast should be smooth not a whipping motion.

 

The release point cannot be to high or to low.

 

Educate your thumb ?

 

I don't think you problem is reel, I think it's mechanics!

[bulldog1935]

What the OP stated on the first page is that he's experiencing mid-cast wind backlash on long casts.  He wouldn't know this if he wasn't feeling it with his thumb.  

The solution has also been given - add one click of mag brake.  

Any talk of technique, mechanics or start-up backlash is non-sequitur, or simply projecting.  

[Bankc]

Casting too hard will cost you distance, and create backlashes.  Think of it like a golf swing or baseball pitch.  You want smooth acceleration for ultimate power.  One thing that will cause a backlash and loss of power is decelerating at the end of your cast.  You should be reaching your top speed at the point the line is released, not just before.  The cast itself should feel effortless.  Start it off slow, slower than what initially feels comfortable, and accelerate through the cast.  The key is to let the rod do the work.  You get your distance by loading the rod and releasing it at the proper timing.  It's the slingshot effect that gets the bait out there more than the speed at which you move your hands.  

 

Over time, you'll get the motion down into muscle memory, then you won't have to worry about all of this.  That's when you can start to add more power.  Because you have the motion down, when you add more power this time, you'll keep the smoothness.  You'll be loading the rod properly, and can feel what it's doing and instantly react accordingly.

 

Also, like other's pointed out, setting up the reel is important.  As is using the proper rod.  A rod that is too strong for your bait will cause you to try to cast it too hard and result in a backlash.  You need to let the rod do the work and not try to overcompensate for it.  A rod that is too wimpy will load too much and not release when you need it to, and cause an instant backlash.  

[islandbass]

4 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

What the OP stated on the first page is that he's experiencing mid-cast wind backlash on long casts.  He wouldn't know this if he wasn't feeling it with his thumb.  

The solution has also been given - add one click of mag brake.  

Any talk of technique, mechanics or start-up backlash is non-sequitur, or simply projecting.  

Good point. I made my post after reading the OPs first post. I just went over the thread and saw to your point.
 I did cover that at the end of my winded post.
 

That thumb better be hovering over the spool ready to compensate for those variables associated with what can happen in last half of the cast, lol.