Fluoro leader issues: change knots or change leader?

[jimanchower]

I've lost a couple of decent bass this spring when setting the hook on a wacky-rigged weightless senko this spring. I'm using a 6'6" medium/fast rod with 15# braid to 8# Invis-X leader, joined by an FG knot. My knot at the hook is a uni knot wrapped 5 times, and this is where I'm having my issue. I have only seen this breakage happen on bigger fish (let's say 4-6 pounds), and this has happened after I've already caught a few smaller ones.

 

I'm tempted to do away with the leader altogether and go straight braid. I'm fishing waters with a few feet (at best) to a few inches of visibility, and these are mostly ponds that don't get a ton of pressure or creeks/rivers that hardly see any anglers. I don't have issues breaking off when I'm fishing straight braid.

 

Alternatively I can re-examine my knots, and try to get better at tying them. I'm aware that care must be taken when knotting fluoro to avoid introducing a weak point, and maybe I'm not careful enough. On the other hand, I have to question if the finnickiness of the fluoro leader is worth it for the conditions I'm fishing. I know the "should I use a leader?" question is a well-worn path, but I'm thinking it through.

 

How would you approach this issue? I've added a poll, and of course would encourage you to share your thoughts.

[matbellon3]

I would change the knot. I personally use a San Diego Jam knot for most my lure/ hook connections. I would also keep the leader has I like to have a little bit of shock absorption for hook sets. 

[Deleted account]

Ditch the fluoro, and go mono. 

[TheBasslayer]

I only know the basic knots, but for me the palomar knot is easy to tie and is really strong. I also run braid to flouro for my poles, so this should hopefully help!

[Happybeerbuzz]

I voted "change your knot".  It comes down to confidence.  You are confident that a leader makes a difference or you would not use one.  You are unconfident about your FG knot.  Confidence is important in fishing. 

 

Although I use a FG knot exclusively, it is a harder knot to learn.  You can get the basics from videos, but diagnosing and adjusting for flaws to my technique took me a bit of trial and error.

 

Also, if you do not perfect the FG knot, stronger connection knots to your lures will just make your break offs worse at the leader knot.  

 

[jimanchower]

One of the things that I like about the uni knot is that it is efficient with line, in that it doesn't leave much tag end. I don't like my leader knot to go onto my spool so I'm typically using only a 6-7' leader at most. If I stick with fluoro maybe it's time to make a change to the Palomar. I think this has more to do with my ability to tie a clean Palomar versus a uni.

 

I think "switch to mono" might be another step in the right direction. Thanks for the input so far.

 

5 minutes ago, Happybeerbuzz said:

I voted "change your knot".  It comes down to confidence.  You are confident that a leader makes a difference or you would not use one.  You are unconfident about your FG knot.  Confidence is important in fishing. 

 

Although I use a FG knot exclusively, it is a harder knot to learn.  You can get the basics from videos, but diagnosing and adjusting for flaws to my technique took me a bit of trial and error.

 

I probably shouldn't have mentioned the FG knot in my post because it's not my issue; the terminal knot is. I do agree about the value of learning it, though. It's far superior (for me) to the double uni, which is what I used to use.

[Cigarguy]

I'd first double check and look further into the problem.  Tie the 8# leader 10 times and manually break the knot.    Take a look at where it is breaking.  At the line?  At the knot?  Is the knot coming apart?  

 

If the knot is coming apart then it is user error so change knot, add more wraps or possibly change leader.  But changing leader may not be the answer if it is failing due to user error.  Any knot will fail unless tied properly. 

 

If it is not user error and the knot is breaking at the knot then I would look at changing knot.  If it is not user error and the line is breaking at the line or sometimes at the line and sometimes at the knot then I would change leader.

[Steveo-1969]

I answered "ditch the leader and fish straight braid". My question for you is "Why do you use a leader?".

 

When fishing in my shallow rocky river I use a leader for abrasion resistance and ease of breaking off when snagged. If I'm not worried about abrasion resistance or getting snagged then I don't use a leader.

[Happybeerbuzz]

8 minutes ago, jimanchower said:

I probably shouldn't have mentioned the FG knot in my post because it's not my issue; the terminal knot is. I do agree about the value of learning it, though. It's far superior (for me) to the double uni, which is what I used to use.

No, you are fine.  I should learn to read better.  Having read more closely now, you were just thoroughly describing your setup. 

 

If visibility is not an issue, mono could be an option for sure.  Mono ties stronger knots.  Another thing you might try is using a Fishing Fool knot.  The single modification to your Uni knot might do the trick.    

[jimanchower]

7 minutes ago, Steveo-1969 said:

I answered "ditch the leader and fish straight braid". My question for you is "Why do you use a leader?".

 

For this setup, I don't have a good answer. It's not because I need a certain fall rate or depth, and not because I feel that I need shock absorption. In a world where knots don't fail I think braid to leader (and a fluoro leader in particular) is the "right" way, but I'd prefer to have landed those fish.

 

I'm leaning towards combining all of the good advice I've received so far and:

1. Fishing straight braid on this particular setup and seeing how that changes things

2. Testing my knot tying and testing other knots with flouro

3. Trying a mono leader if I feel like braid's visibility is causing me issues

[galyonj]

I'm confused. Is the break at the mainline connection or at the terminal end?

[Bankc]

I would just go straight braid, if I were you.  I often use leaders, though if I'm being honest, it's mostly just to save money on buying new braid from all of the reties.  I have a bunch of half spools of stuff sitting around that I tried and didn't life for whatever reason, and now use what's left as leader line. 

 

Though, I would suggest switching knots as well.  Fluoro, more than any other line, is bad about knots coming loose.  It stretches some, and then won't contract back.  So it can work itself loose a lot easier than mono.  Also its very slick and abrasion resistant, so it doesn't dig into itself well.  I typically use a palomar for fluoro, and leave about a 3/16" tag end.  Fluoro seems to respond better, in my experience, to knots that don't involve a lot of twisting around itself, like the uni and clinch knots.

[Cigarguy]

7 minutes ago, galyonj said:

I'm confused. Is the break at the mainline connection or at the terminal end?

The OP clearly states where the problem is in his original post.

 

1 hour ago, jimanchower said:

My knot at the hook is a uni knot wrapped 5 times, and this is where I'm having my issue. I have only seen this breakage happen on bigger fish (let's say 4-6 pounds), and this has happened after I've already caught a few smaller ones.

 

 

 

 

[J Francho]

1 hour ago, jimanchower said:

My knot at the hook is a uni knot wrapped 5 times, and this is where I'm having my issue.

Until you resolve this, you can make all the changes you want, but that will still fail.

[galyonj]

3 minutes ago, Cigarguy said:

The OP clearly states where the problem is in his original post.

 

I appreciate the help.

 

OP needs to use better knots, or use line that's more forgiving of crappy knots.

[Junk Fisherman]

Change your knot.  Why not go to a Palomar?  I don't use it anymore but it is strong, easy to tie, and many, many people rely on it.  

 

What's unique is that you are tying the FG knot correctly which is usually the knot that gives people, including me, problems but are having issues with your terminal knot.

  

[E-rude dude]

Ditch the leader. If you look at the lines under a microscope it would be like tying rope to a chainsaw chain. No matter what knot you use the braid will eventually saw through the leader. And it never happens on small fish!

[Cigarguy]

2 minutes ago, E-rude dude said:

Ditch the leader. If you look at the lines under a microscope it would be like tying rope to a chainsaw chain. No matter what knot you use the braid will eventually saw through the leader. And it never happens on small fish!

 

But....that's not his problem.  The OP's problem is the terminal knot.  The mainline to leader connection is fine.  IMO, ditching the leader and tying that thin of a braid with a 5 wrap uni knot would be worse.   Thin braid requires more wraps and I've found that even with 10 wraps it still can slip with "some" line.  That's why I use a Polamar for my terminal knot.  When I experimented with a uni I found I had to put a dab of super glue on the terminal knot to secure it otherwise it will work itself loose after about 20 good strong manual tug. 

 

I myself use a leader and found my breakage is at the leader or terminal knot but so far never at the mainline to leader connection.  This is as expected and as planned.  In a snag I want the line to break somewhere in the leader. 

[E-rude dude]

3 minutes ago, Cigarguy said:

 

But....that's not his problem.  The OP's problem is the terminal knot.  The mainline to leader connection is fine.  IMO, ditching the leader and tying that thin of a braid with a 5 wrap uni knot would be worse.   Thin braid requires more wraps and I've found that even with 10 wraps it still can slip with "some" line.  That's why I use a Polamar for my terminal knot.  When I experimented with a uni I found I had to put a dab of super glue on the terminal knot to secure it otherwise it will work itself loose after about 20 good strong manual tug. 

 

I myself use a leader and found my breakage is at the leader or terminal knot but so far never at the mainline to leader connection.  This is as expected and as planned.  In a snag I want the line to break somewhere in the leader. 

Ah the ever touted Polamar knot. Braid needs a minimum of 7 twists. 
Uni knots are about the most likely not to snap at the knot, but hey you keep tying your polamar. I’ll keep swinging fish in the boat.??

[Choporoz]

I say try two things:

1. Keep using leader, but move up to 10#.  I love Invisx,  but I don't think 8 is sufficient for a decent senko hookset...or at least not more than one in a row...right after re-tie....drop shot, sure.

2.  Change the terminal knot.  I am not sure I'd be comfortable with a 5-wrap knot with 8# test.  More wraps, or better yet, try 6 wrap San Diego Jam.

 

[CountryboyinDC]

Try the Swindle Double Shindo, Over-the-Creek, Beside-the-Barn, Foothold knot.  I do think with flurocarbon, going 2X through the eye is key.  There are a couple of other knots (I was using the 'Shaw Grigsby'), but that seems to be key for me for terminal knots not failing. 

[MickD]

FG doesn't work as well with lighter leaders as it does with heavier ones.  One thing to keep in mind is that with lighter leaders there is no need to do the FG. Just use a double uni, very reliable.

 

I also think there is no need to go as light as 8 pound test on the leader.  Try 15 and see how your luck changes.  8 is just too fragile.

[blckshirt98]

Fluoro is very prone to line burn, I used to get breaks at the hook using a palomar knot myself with InvizX 8#, have since switched to 15# InvizX fluoro and I really don't have that problem anymore unless I get lazy about re-tying.  If you want to keep the same 8# line maybe look into a different kind of fluoro like FC Sniper or Tatsu.

[jimanchower]

I set up an unscientific test by setting up a step ladder with a 1" wooden dowel running perpendicular to the steps. I put a 3# weight in a bucket with a handle and set it on top of a container to put it about 10" off the ground. Then I set up something like this, if you can visualize it

 

wooden dowel

leader material wrapped around dowel

split ring

50# braid

carabiner

bucket with weight

container supporting the bucket and weight

 

...then I kicked the container out of the way.

 

8# Invizx broke each time, whether I used a uni or Palomar. Berkley Trilene Big Game 8# held with both a uni and a Palomar. Granted, the Invizx is .009" compared to .011". But I figure the real difference is that the monofilament stretches and absorbs the shock which helps reduce the strain on the knot. Maybe there's not much difference in the overall weight bearing capacity, but I was trying to simulate a hook set, not gradual weight being applied.

[Choporoz]

4 minutes ago, jimanchower said:

.... I figure the real difference is that the monofilament stretches 

And THAT'S when the argument started....lol