Torque-Reeling with Spinning Gear

[J Francho]

Fun Sized.

[Paul Roberts]

Somehow we are not understanding each other. Never said those small stripers are "hard-fighting". That wasn't the point. Read it again, or... not.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

7 hours ago, J Francho said:

Fun Sized.

Not very woke 

[Paul Roberts]

Lost me. Moving on...

[bulldog1935]

Where I grew up bass fishing, deep, clear, TX hill country reservoirs, there just wasn't any cover, unless you happened to stumble across where people leaded their spent Christmas trees to make crappie holes.  

I fished through 3 spinning reels over decades, all because of outclassing them in the salt. 

The short-lived one was my Mitchell 300 from high school - it was worn out after four years of fall jetty fishing (still have the reel).  

When I sheared off the handle pin on my 300, the only replacement (at Gibson's) was the long torpedo-grip (from the 400).  

Guess that put me in torque land, but what wore out those gears in four years of fall spanish macks from the jetties was the combination of me outclassing it and its nylon gear - nylon gear - holy crap, nylon gear. 

 

Likewise, fished through my 25-year Penn 4400SS and 4200SS (with help from my younger daughter) each on king mackerel and redfish - spindle/bushing slop developed, reverse-cone line lay. 

But reels were never really designed then, they were rule of thumb, trial and error.  

I've certainly never twisted line against paying drag, letting fish take drag against the rod butt, and recover with rod pumping has always been a natural reaction for me with spinning tackle, or even with baitcasters when needed - feet on the gunwhale for jacks and kings.  

 

OK, and I threw away one spinning reel from the '90s, it was the Cardinal-derived Lew's, of course from Zebco, but the plastic frame was so bad, the reel flopped in the breeze.  

 

Shakespeare WondeRods?  I'll plead The Fifth.  

I did like my workhorse MH Berkley TriSport for both inshore and bass fishing.  

There are always regional preferences.  

Here, Conolon was King for for light fast power, and Silaflex was class.  

[Bubba 460]

Most of my fishing is done with bigger spinning reels and med heavy or heavy rods. The exceptions are if I'm throwing heavier baits than, say, two ounces, I go to bait casters and heavy or extra heavy rods. For example, tossing light frogs into pads I use spinning reels in the 4000 size with heavy rods and 50 to 65 pound braid. I pull the fish out with the rod, not power cranking the reel. The bigger spinning reel is simply to take up the line and have a heavy drag. In open water this set-up is big enough to power crank but I believe not necessary in 90% of cases. A few of my go-to spinning reels are two Pflueger Patriarch  40 spinning reels (have lasted over 10 years of heavy use). The  Daiwa BG 4000 is a great reel for heavy applications. Another reel I have tried and for the money (well under a $100) am very impressed with the the  Piscifun Honor XT Spinning Reel in the 4000 size with 33 pounds of max drag. So far it's been a tank. I run straight braid or braid to mono leader on most of my heavy rods.

 

I just prefer spinning rods but have no problem throwing bait casters and have them in left handed models as well. With spinning rods the reel is under the rod (weight) and you have better control holding the rod than wrapping your hand around the reel and rod of a bait caster; plus you don't have to switch hands casting.

 

Anyway, that is of course just my opinion and preferences and they work for me. Everyone is different. Photo below ~ bass on black frog out of the pads on spinning gear. One of the most awesome blow-ups I ever saw.

[Paul Roberts]

Thanks @Bubba 460. Interesting perspective. Appreciate your chiming in. 

 

I think the apparent "confusion" in this thread (the derogatory comments... I just don't get) around pumping here has to do with the fact that I'm a back-reeler so there is no drag at play. I'm free to lock down, probably similar to what Bubba460 gets with 65# braid and 33lbs of drag.

 

The problem I've had with pumping fish in heavy cover is that once the rod is maxed out, there is no way I can recover (rod angle for another pump) before the fish can turn its head down. Keeping the fish's head turned toward me is the surest way to keep them from wrapping up in cover... or prolonging a fight anywhere for that matter. And that requires 'winching'.

 

I did not bring my question up to talk back-reeling. I frankly hadn't thought about it. When I need to do some real winching, I tend to use a casting reel, with heavy braid and drag locked down. Bubba's post makes clear, for me, that there is spinning gear that can winch. My opening question had to do with a myth(?) that worm-gear reels do not winch well.

 

I'll head off triggering anyone any more by answering ahead that I skip better, further, with spinning gear than I currently can with casting gear. I've got some overhung brush and trees here that require some serious skipping to get back under. I recently bought a Quick 331 for this purpose. Was wondering if anyone could speak to worm-gear reels as a winch. But, if your drag isn't locked, I guess the question is moot. 

 

And... I stand by all the rest of what I offered about fighting, what I've come to call, "neutrally buoyant hydrofoils". The best way I know to understand what that means is to lock your drag down. Then try it with a 1kg line and feisty steelhead to really get a bead on what that means.

 

Yeah, I know... blah, blah, blah...

[Bubba 460]

1 hour ago, Paul Roberts said:

Thanks @Bubba 460. Interesting perspective. Appreciate your chiming in. 

 

I think the apparent "confusion" in this thread (the derogatory comments... I just don't get) around pumping here has to do with the fact that I'm a back-reeler so there is no drag at play. I'm free to lock down, probably similar to what Bubba460 gets with 65# braid and 33lbs of drag.

 

The problem I've had with pumping fish in heavy cover is that once the rod is maxed out, there is no way I can recover (rod angle for another pump) before the fish can turn its head down. Keeping the fish's head turned toward me is the surest way to keep them from wrapping up in cover... or prolonging a fight anywhere for that matter.

 

I did not bring my question up to talk back-reeling. I frankly hadn't thought about it. When I need to do some real winching, I tend to use a casting reel, with heavy braid and drag locked down. Bubba's post makes clear, for me, that there is spinning gear that can winch. My opening question had to do with a myth(?) that worm-gear reels do not winch well.

 

I'll head off triggering anyone any more by answering ahead that I skip better, further, with spinning gear than I currently can with casting gear. I've got some overhung brush and trees here that require some serious skipping to get back under. I recently bought a Quick 331 for this purpose. Was wondering if anyone could speak to worm-gear reels as a winch. But, if your drag isn't locked, I guess the question is moot. 

 

And... I stand by all the rest of what I offered about fighting, what I've come to call, "neutrally buoyant hydrofoils". The best way I know to understand what that means is to lock your drag down. Then try it with a 1kg line and feisty steelhead to really get a bead on what that means.

 

Yeah, I know... blah, blah, blah...

There are times when you really have no choice but to power crank on a bass.

Example: I fish a large lake here in VA that has A LOT of standing timber, stumps lay-downs. It's about as gnarly as it gets in some places and gnarly is what like to fish in most.  If I cast a Whopper Plopper, a shallow swimbait or 12 inch worm out across that stump field and get bit ~ well it's "Katie bar the door" cause the fight is on. Best chance is stand up, try and get get her on top and reel like mad... Works like a charm~ when it works. But a big fish in those same circumstance that's a whole 'nother ball game. Turning a big bass in a large size pile of "pick-up sticks" and keeping her coming is bordering on miraculous. If she hits one stump or limb, that game is over and plan "B", "C" or "D" comes into play. Plan "D" is usually the "Agony of Defeat".

[Boomstick]

I believe this is an issue of the past. I haven't really had this issue with any modern spinning reel. 

[Paul Roberts]

1 hour ago, Bubba 460 said:

There are times when you really have no choice but to power crank on a bass.

Example: I fish a large lake here in VA that has A LOT of standing timber, stumps lay-downs. It's about as gnarly as it gets in some places and gnarly is what like to fish in most.  If I cast a Whopper Plopper, a shallow swimbait or 12 inch worm out across that stump field and get bit ~ well it's "Katie bar the door" cause the fight is on. Best chance is stand up, try and get get her on top and reel like mad... Works like a charm~ when it works. But a big fish in those same circumstance that's a whole 'nother ball game. Turning a big bass in a large size pile of "pick-up sticks" and keeping her coming is bordering on miraculous. If she hits one stump or limb, that game is over and plan "B", "C" or "D" comes into play. Plan "D" is usually the "Agony of Defeat".

Yes, that's very much part of the game. Plan B, etc. can be how to get that tangled fish outta there. Go in and dig em out. Slack up and guide them out. Wait them out. Twang the line, ... But, our experiences are similar -although your fish (esp in BC) are going to top out bigger than mine- wrapped fish tend to get off too often. If I can do it, I'll keep that head turned my way and won't give them a moment to get that head turned. Hey, if you got the head, the body and fins, must follow (unless it's an eel -ever tug-of-warred with one of those? ?). Main reason why foul-hooked fish are so awful to fight too. If I'd ever fouled a steelhead on 1kg line (or a 3kg line for that matter), I'd simply break it off and re-tie.

 

1 hour ago, Boomstick said:

I believe this is an issue of the past. I haven't really had this issue with any modern spinning reel. 

Could be. I haven't noticed such a problem either. But then again, I've never tried winching with a Cardinal 4. Could just be a myth. Easy enough to test I would think.

[throttleplate]

using a pflueger supreme size 30 i crank the heck out of my reel keeping that fish out of the deep grass.

I am cranking with 30lb braid with a snapped on 20lb leader all the while i am cranking the drag will kick in and i keep reeling as this is what works for me.

The last time i quit on a fish it got off so i crank untill the cows come home. If my reel was to go bad from this extreme cranking then i woud have to seek out another brand of higher quality.

[soflabasser]

Any decent inshore spinning reel is more than enough for black bass fishing. For example a size 4000 Shimano Stradic is a great reel for bass fishing and this reel is very good for inshore fishing. With that said you should use the rod to fight the fish along with the reels drag system.

[Paul Roberts]

32 minutes ago, soflabasser said:

With that said you should use the rod to fight the fish along with the reels drag system.

What will employing the drag do for me? Esp in the described situations -heavy cover winching?

[soflabasser]

1 hour ago, Paul Roberts said:

What will employing the drag do for me? Esp in the described situations -heavy cover winching?

Back reeling is not the best thing to do if you are fishing for bass 8 pounds and bigger in heavy aquatic vegetation. If it makes you happy go for it. I will stick to trusting my reel's drag system since it has helped me land many large fish.

[TnRiver46]

7 hours ago, soflabasser said:

Back reeling is not the best thing to do if you are fishing for bass 8 pounds and bigger in heavy aquatic vegetation. If it makes you happy go for it. I will stick to trusting my reel's drag system since it has helped me land many large fish.

I don’t think he was talking about backreeling. I think he means he wants no drag because he’s fishing in grass 

 

No backreel, no drag, hook the fish and winch it in 

[Paul Roberts]

12 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

I don’t think he was talking about backreeling. I think he means he wants no drag because he’s fishing in grass 

 

No backreel, no drag, hook the fish and winch it in 

Yes. Drag and back-reeling do the same thing.

[WRB]

WSetting the winching aside and talking about pumping fish using the rod. The short stroke rod pump is what we used to move fish that bigger then a angler fast. The long rod lift pump and reel down is used when big fish are straight down to let the rod lift the fish.

The fast short stroke pump keeps the fish moving straight at the angler and appropriate for bass in weeds. Winching the fish across the top of a weed bed is appropriate using the reel to take up more line faster.

The rod can only take so much force before it bottoms out and breaks. Reel drive gears can only stay engaged if the reel frame doesn’t flex. The line and knot usually fails.

Tom

PS, when a spinning drive breaks the spool cleans off the rod guides!

[Paul Roberts]

3 hours ago, WRB said:

WSetting the winching aside and talking about pumping fish using the rod. The short stroke rod pump is what we used to move fish that bigger then a angler fast. The long rod lift pump and reel down is used when big fish are straight down to let the rod lift the fish.

The fast short stroke pump keeps the fish moving straight at the angler and appropriate for bass in weeds. Winching the fish across the top of a weed bed is appropriate using the reel to take up more line faster.

The rod can only take so much force before it bottoms out and breaks. Reel drive gears can only stay engaged if the reel frame doesn’t flex. The line and knot usually fails.

Tom

PS, when a spinning drive breaks the spool cleans off the rod guides!

Ouch! I've never seen that, but can picture it! Having the guides ripped off a rod must be a SW thing, where there are fish big enough and strong enough to really test -even break- quality tackle, and an angler physically. I've never done any "big game" fishing and would guess that's a different realm.

 

To clarify, I didn't mean to suggest there is no place for pumping. Obviously, a rod can only move so much line. But in certain circumstances, besides winching -esp super-light tackle- telegraphing to the fish isn't helpful.

 

That said, I don't think I do that much 'pumping' while fighting bass. Could just be that they just don't move all that far, and all I'm doing is keeping a tight line and guiding them. Compare that with Chinook salmon, as John mentioned, which are big strong dogged fighters that can cover water, and have to be physically subdued. I also found that they -and lake trout- can be negatively buoyant and thus actually adding weight to the fight.

Also, the larger channel cats I've tangled with also require pumping, or lifting. Partly bc they are big and strong fighters, but also bc their body's are both laterally compressed along the flanks and horizontally compressed with that shovel-shaped head. They can run well when a distance out, and become what I’ve come to call, “cinder blocks with fins” when directly below the rod. They simply have to be lifted. I also wonder if they aren’t somewhat negatively buoyant during these fights too. They can sure feel like it.

 

I'm curious though, what my bass fights look like, how much ‘pumping’ I do. Since I have video of a lot of catches, I'll have to take a look and see. 

 

 

[WRB]

Paul bass are not fast fish they make their living being able to turn on a dime. Fish like tuna are fast forward swimmers the can turn sideways to put extra force pulling them up and swim in big circles when tiring. 2 ministers bass fight is exceptionally a long time where are a 30 minute tuna fight is common. Pumping is needed, you can’t move them otherwise.

Bass are are not hard long fighter.

Short fast  pumping or 1/2 strokes should work for you.

Tom

 

[Paul Roberts]

Thanks, Tom. Good point. I suppose that was J Francho's and BassWhole's points too. For big strong-running fish, esp salmon and tuna, that can turn and give you the tail for prolonged periods are a different animal from bass. Although big smallies on light tackle, esp boat-side, can require some lifting. Again, my point wasn't to say lifting/pumping have no place. Just that leading (and/or torque-reeling) has its place, and has an interesting effect on hooked fish. It seems fish don't 'feel the hook' s much as they 'feel the tug' of the line and rod. Phew! Maybe I'll wait to discuss such things until after cabin fever season has passed.

 

I was curious, so I looked at some of my fights on video and see that my default is indeed to lead. I lift (pump) in close when bigger fish can turn away and give me that tail! I also had a foul-hooked (belly-hooked) carp that required some serious lifting. I hate fighting foul-hooked fish. It gets old fast.

 

[Michigander]

For heavy cover spinning rod fishing, I use saltwater reels like 4000 Penns. Never had one bind up.

[soflabasser]

On 4/2/2021 at 10:26 PM, TnRiver46 said:

I don’t think he was talking about backreeling. I think he means he wants no drag because he’s fishing in grass 

 

No backreel, no drag, hook the fish and winch it in 

I saw back reeling mentioned earlier in this thread. It is a technique I do not see useful but if it makes some people happy than I say go for it. Any decent spinning reel is more than capable of pulling a big bass out of heavy aquatic vegetation. I like using size 4000 spinning reels for bass fishing and have caught many big bass this way.