Torque-Reeling with Spinning Gear

[Paul Roberts]

I generally use casting gear for torque-reeling fish up and out of cover. I'd read that the pro's used to complain about the older top-end worm-gear spinning reels (Quick's, Card 4's) would simply bind up and NOT reel when trying to crank fish up and out. Curious if anyone has experience with this. I have some of these worm-gear reels but realize I've tended to grab casting gear for this kind of fishing. The one reel I have used quite a bit for this kind of work has been a Daiwa "side-gear" design (a BG15) that doesn't appear to "bind up". It's not comparable to a casting reel for this kind of abuse, but I've done it, repeatedly. (At one point I actually snapped off the threads in the handle shaft while cranking out a bass). 

 

My question is: Does anyone have any experience with spinning reels for continuous torque-cranking of fish? I know they've come a long way in terms of gear efficiency. Which ones work? Or more interestingly for my purposes, which ones don't?

[soflabasser]

I prefer fishing with spinning reels and have caught many big bass this way. A lot of those bass were caught in heavy aquatic vegetation were you have to pull the bass out as quickly as possible to avoid losing the bass. I use these spinning reels for inshore fishing for fish much more powerful than any black bass.

[Paul Roberts]

2 hours ago, soflabasser said:

I prefer fishing with spinning reels and have caught many big bass this way. A lot of those bass were caught in heavy aquatic vegetation were you have to pull the bass out as quickly as possible to avoid losing the bass. I use these spinning reels for inshore fishing for fish much more powerful than any black bass.

What specific reels are you talking about? Have you ever used older worm-gear reels in this way? Is there truth to the "binding up" complaint? Thanks.

[garroyo130]

If youre referring to a D.A.M quick spinning reels, I've never heard of such a thing. They get used heavily in the salt and lots of people are fans of them to this day.

[J Francho]

That binding is something you see out of lesser crown and pinion gear sets from the past.  It's actually been my experience that it's flex in a composite body causing those gears to get out of alignment, and bind.  My dad still has and uses a DAM Quick 5000 size reel for nearly everything.  I've seen him winch anything from big browns, to northerns, to bass in slop with it.  It's paired up with an old heavy Garcia boron rod.  Is it possible you have the two gear sets reversed in the story?

 

At any rate, I move the fish with the rod not the reel, regardless of reel type.

[BrianMDTX]

36 minutes ago, J Francho said:

At any rate, I move the fish with the rod not the reel, regardless of reel type.

I think a lot of times that’s a forgotten premise. Pump and reel!

[J Francho]

It's something I learned to do when I was kid fishing on my uncle's salmon charter.  I remember learning to do it then very vividly, and it worked so well, I've pretty much applied it to every fish I catch, even little guys.

[MN Fisher]

47 minutes ago, J Francho said:

At any rate, I move the fish with the rod not the reel, regardless of reel type.

You mean there's a different way of bringing in the fish?

[PhishLI]

2 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

The one reel I have used quite a bit for this kind of work has been a Daiwa "side-gear" design (a BG15) that doesn't appear to "bind up"

The older Daiwa BGs and their nearly identical predecessor the GSXs were tough as nails. Geary, but just about unstoppable. Nearly any hypoid gear type spinner with a metal frame built these days can handle fresh water duty easily. Daiwa's current BGs are winches.

[J Francho]

10 minutes ago, MN Fisher said:

You mean there's a different way of bringing in the fish?

If you're interested in the wrong way, YouTube has plenty of videos of goons doing it.

[BrianMDTX]

37 minutes ago, J Francho said:

It's something I learned to do when I was kid fishing on my uncle's salmon charter.  I remember learning to do it then very vividly, and it worked so well, I've pretty much applied it to every fish I catch, even little guys.

I learned on flounder, sea trout and bluefish. And bluegills on UL rigs lol. 

[Paul Roberts]

On 3/30/2021 at 10:59 AM, garroyo130 said:

If youre referring to a D.A.M quick spinning reels, I've never heard of such a thing. They get used heavily in the salt and lots of people are fans of them to this day.

It was the old Zebco (ABU made) Cardinal 4's that were being referred to. I have one, but haven't torque-reeled with it.

 

On 3/30/2021 at 11:19 AM, J Francho said:

That binding is something you see out of lesser crown and pinion gear sets from the past.  It's actually been my experience that it's flex in a composite body causing those gears to get out of alignment, and bind.  My dad still has and uses a DAM Quick 5000 size reel for nearly everything.  I've seen him winch anything from big browns, to northerns, to bass in slop with it.  It's paired up with an old heavy Garcia boron rod.  Is it possible you have the two gear sets reversed in the story?

 

At any rate, I move the fish with the rod not the reel, regardless of reel type.

I've never experienced this "binding", that I'm aware of. It's more of an academic question, since I had read that this was described as a problem once upon a time with the Cardinal 4's. All metal, but... I think no "crown" to the main gear --if you mean curved. I'd have to open mine up to see. ... OK, I just did; It's one flippin' screw. Main gear is not "crowned" (is flat topped), spiral cut, the worm is concave, I suppose for surface area contact?

 

On 3/30/2021 at 12:08 PM, MN Fisher said:

You mean there's a different way of bringing in the fish?

Oh yes! Oh my! ...

 

On 3/30/2021 at 12:19 PM, J Francho said:

If you're interested in the wrong way, YouTube has plenty of videos of goons doing it.

Even on the Pro tours! I hate to even say it.

 

On 3/30/2021 at 11:57 AM, BrianMDTX said:

I think a lot of times that’s a forgotten premise. Pump and reel!

When pulling bass out of heavy cover when they are not directly below me -I fish from shore or from float tube and yak- a lot of reeling can be required. Rods can only move so much line.

 

Pumping can be necessary when fish are below you, giving you have a high rod angle to work with. But when I can have a low rod angle, which is much of the time bc I fish mostly shallow, and from the bank, float tube, or yak. There I've learned NOT to "pump", bc pumping, rod movement, spooks the fish into... doing unhelpful things, and prolonging the fight. Apply tension, stay smooth, don't spook em -before and after you hook them. 

 

When the fish are close in though, I use a lot of rod movement, angle changes; But remaining smooooth. Hate being stalemated by big fish close in. And I hate seeing it. When I see it with another angler, say when on the bank standing over that fish, I'm apt to tell them to just back up! Walk backwards to get that smooth lower angle pull. You can lower your rod from the bank too, and alter sides on the fish's head to counter, and even confuse, them. Same when in a boat: lower the rod angle and, if you have to, walk around the boat.

 

The smoothest fights I've achieved has been with single-action fly tackle. I learned this being in the thick of hordes of school-sized striped bass (18-26"), where I've participated in up to 100 fish nights, The quickest way to lip them is not to move the rod. Stand it straight up and just reel with that single-action winch, towing them in, they not knowing what was up. They’d just go along for the ride. Things did get a little exciting when they got under the rod though! That's when they realized -felt- that something wasn't right. But low rod angles, switching sides, and steering them, confused them enough that… it was over quickly. Big fish in those shore-bound circumstances though sometimes required some beach walking -kind of feels like walking a dog- and backing up when they hit the surf edge. Just don’t spook ‘em!

 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Paul Roberts
Correction! A group of us would break 100, and I would account for more than half.

[J Francho]

18 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

When pulling bass out of heavy cover when they are not directly below me -I fish from shore or from float tube and yak- a lot of reeling can be required. Rods can only move so much line.

More often than not, in a light craft, you're moving the craft to the fish in the slop.  Even then, it's pump and reel, but I'm using side pressure, not from above.  From shore, I'm upping to the heaviest tackle I own in slop, since I have to get the fish out. 

 

I haven't seen a Cardinal in at least two decades, and I doubt there's but a handful of people still using them on these forums.  I've read plenty of stories about fishing and fishing gear, and many are just that.  If it's working for you, no need to change because someone on the internet said so.  

 

23 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

Walk backwards to get that smooth lower angle pull.

You're words on fighting a fish from shore are spot on, especially when it comes to getting the angle on the fish.  See what I did there?

[Paul Roberts]

1 hour ago, J Francho said:

More often than not, in a light craft, you're moving the craft to the fish in the slop.  Even then, it's pump and reel, but I'm using side pressure, not from above.  From shore, I'm upping to the heaviest tackle I own in slop, since I have to get the fish out. 

 

I haven't seen a Cardinal in at least two decades, and I doubt there's but a handful of people still using them on these forums.  I've read plenty of stories about fishing and fishing gear, and many are just that.  If it's working for you, no need to change because someone on the internet said so.  

 

You're words on fighting a fish from shore are spot on, especially when it comes to getting the angle on the fish.  See what I did there?

I anchor -a lot. Esp in a yak. It just blows and drifts around too much. In the tube too, but, those fins are at work too. And yeah, going really heavy helps a lot.

 

I'm asking bc I recently picked up a DAM Quick 331 to use for skipping and winching. But someone mentioned that story about some of those old worm-gear reels -Card 4's I think specifically- binding -that is, being stopped cold. I know little, but have been getting curious about reel engineering -gears n stuff. I know this much, that I'd much rather winch with a casting reel. I've had a 441 as well for a long time (bought it, used, 35yrs ago at B.E. Tackle) but haven't done a whole lot of winching with it. Thought I'd just snap the handle off my BG instead. :))

 

No, what did you do there? Too sharp a turn for me!

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

2 hours ago, J Francho said:

If you're interested in the wrong way, YouTube has plenty of videos of goons doing it.

They’re great for my business. 

[Paul Roberts]

10 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

They’re great for my business. 

Yes... I'd give an LOL but... what I saw when the downrigger craze hit the Great Lakes wasn't all that funny. When angry fishers would come in to the shop and say, "It just broke!" Got to be that when I sold a rod (these were off the rack factory rods) I showed each person how NOT to break a rod. Esp how to pop a release free without folding the rod. Otherwise they were going to leave that shop with an Ugly Stick. 

[soflabasser]

5 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

What specific reels are you talking about? Have you ever used older worm-gear reels in this way? Is there truth to the "binding up" complaint? Thanks.

I mostly fish with Penn and Shimano spinning reels. I have caught +7 foot sharks, snook, tarpon, jacks, and lots of other powerful saltwater fish. I use the same reels for bass fishing.

1 hour ago, Paul Roberts said:

Otherwise they were going to leave that shop with an Ugly Stick. 

Lots of people like to bash Ugly Stiks yet they are a great fishing rod. I got 1 Ugly Stik that has caught more bass over 8 pounds than most people have caught in a lifetime of fishing. I mostly use them for fishing in heavy aquatic vegetation where a strong fishing rod is needed. 

[Paul Roberts]

The Ugly Stick and its predecessor, the Howald Wonderod, truly are wonders. They have been so popular and durable that archeologists some day far in the future, digging deep enough, will probably name a layer the Ugly Stick layer. I've never owned an US, but caught plenty of bass with other glass rods once upon a time. But was eventually spoiled by graphite. Still haven't quite recovered, but am working on it with some new tech S-glass blanks to try out. Nice to hear you have a favorite rod that's been building memories with you. 

 

So, in summary, I guess I'll just have to take those old worm-gear reels out and see how they winch.

[Mobasser]

I have an ABU Cardinal 4, which I've owned for years. I havnt noticed any problems pulling fish out of moderate cover with this reel. Although I don't use it as much now, in my opinion it's one of toughest best all around spinning reels ever made.

[J Francho]

Angle on the fish - angling. Cmon @Paul Roberts this is dad level punnery!

[Paul Roberts]

I think that'd be angle IN the fish. Nuk nuk. OK... now I've ruining my own thread.

[Bluebasser86]

11 hours ago, J Francho said:

If you're interested in the wrong way, YouTube has plenty of videos of goons doing it.

Crank against that screaming drag and then wonder why their line blows up into a giant tangled mess a few cast later ?‍♂️

[Paul Roberts]

11 hours ago, Bluebasser86 said:

Crank against that screaming drag and then wonder why their line blows up into a giant tangled mess a few cast later ?‍♂️

Let's not go there. Add that to high rod stalemating and... I'll jump overboard.

 

So... I found a cool article about worm-gear reels (the author likes them, a lot), and in talking about gear mechanical efficiency said that w-g's, although the strongest and smoothest of gear systems, give up a bit in efficiency that only becomes practically at issue at very high gear ratios (8:1). The original comment I'd read (mentioned in the OP) about w-g reels 'binding' also offered that he'd only experienced anything like this in the high speed w-g reels. Again, I'll play around with them and see if I can even get one of my w-g reels to 'bind'.

[redmeansdistortion]

20 hours ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

They’re great for my business. 

Always a hoot when you tell the customer about the metal shavings.  "I figured that reel was a POS!"  They never suspect it's the guy holding the fat end of the stick.

[Deleted account]

19 hours ago, J Francho said:

Angle on the fish - angling. Cmon @Paul Roberts this is dad level punnery!

The whole hard fighting school sized striped bass thing got coffee all over my screen. He is on fire.