Replacement bearings for a old Abu Garcia Ambassador 5

[Blk69]

Hello all, new member.  Getting more serious this year about fishing.  Wanting to step up to a baitcaster reel (used to open face (spinning) reels).  Have an old Abu Garcia that's been sitting around for 20 to 25 years.  This Spring, cleaned it up, oiled it.  Replaced line with J-Brand 20' braided...poor performance. Maybe 20' cast distance.  Poor accuracy (that maybe me).  Took it apart again and everything looked ok.  After spending another 1/2 day messing with it gave up.....brought a Daiwa Tutula CT and new 13Fishing Med Heavy action rod.  Feel most would agree this was the best course of action.  Now have to wait a month for it to ship (back ordered).

 

Not sure what to do with this old Abu Garcia reel.  I'm handy and fairly confident could replace the bearings, spool, etc.  Looking for some advice on the following

1)  How do I determine what model reel do I have?  Is the Ambassador 5 the model?  Where do you get parts?

2) How do the costs to fix it compare to purchasing a budget Daiwi? Can get a new CC80 for $60 or a used Fuego for close to that.  I'm up to fixing it, trying to avoid having more in the repair then cost for a new/replacement that would outperform it.

3)  In my discussion over the years, not to many anglers in my neck of the woods speak highly of Garcia.  Assume its like Ford and Chevy thing, everyone has their opinions.  See Garcia is still in business so assume they make a decent product.  Was this model I have a good one for them?  Just trying to determine if worth the time, effort and expense to attempt to repair it.

 

Thank you in advance for any guidance on this subject.  Sure opinions will vary, new to these types of reels.  

 

Additional:  Why did I chose the Tutula?  My brother has a Daiwi and said he liked it. I was leaning toward a SLX XT, then decided on a Fuego CT do to comments on it being easier to use (hope it is).  Pricing on the Fuego has increased and was only $20 US more for the Tutula at Tackle Warehouse.  Figured what the heck, bought the Tutula.  It was the Z-Mag brakes that sold me on the Daiwa.  For the Shimboma you have to remove the cover to access the pins and fear the cover would end up at the bottom of the lake.  The pins maybe a better system and do plan on getting a SLX XT some day.   

 

 

 

 

 

[bulldog1935]

The Ambassadeur Five became the Five Star.  

Here are the schematics available online.  

The 87 versions of the Five has spool spindle fixed in the spool, and bearings in the end plate caps.  

The 89 versions and all the Five Star versions have Ultracast spool, with separate spindle, and bearings in the spool.  

Something else about the round Abu's, the spool drives the LW mechanism during the cast, and truly slicking them requires ball bearing swaps to the idler gear and worm shaft (the custom BB parts are also lightened).  IMO, the ultracast reels can be worth spending money on custom parts to make them slick.  

 

But it would have to be something you really want to do, because a new low profile baitcaster has complete free-spool with LW disengaged during cast, and will work a lot better than you are currently getting on the Abu - a new low profile baitcaster would be less money than customizing an Abu,

 

The one place round Abu has serious cast advantage are the Non-LW surf reels, such as my custom C3-CTs

I rebuilt these with everything slick, everything light, mag (+centrifugal) brakes, and shallow spools for braid, and this was a big dollar project - kept me busy much of last year.  

 

[Blk69]

Thank you for the diagrams.  Believe I have a 87-2 version, has a very simple spool, does have the little plastic rollers on the right end of it. As my bearings are in the housing and not the spool (not and Ultracast) you would recommend not rebuilding it?  Just out of curiosity, how did these non Ultracast reels perform when new?  

 

Those are some very nice reels you have customized, I'm a little jealous.  

[bulldog1935]

Thanks, friend.  

They seriously cast out of sight, and with thin braid, you don't even need the level wind in a day's fishing.  They get a good hand-level wind when first loaded, and sometime after a day (or long weekend) of fishing, I'll use a line winder to restore the hand level wind in my working line, so they're ready for next time.  

You don't tension the end caps on this reel; instead, you adjust them to 1 mm spool end play.  The centrifugal brake, mag, and your thumb do the rest.  

 

I wouldn't necessarily not recommend rebuilding yours, especially if you want to take it on - I'm sure you could improve it a lot.  

There are some great parts out there - check Japan Tackle at least for ideas - Tuning Parts/ Spools and /Gears-Brakes-Level-Winder, also /Bearings. 

In BC, Mike's Reel Repair is a good source for custom and original parts, and a few good US vendors, but fewer available custom parts than you'll find in Japan.  

There's like a cult for these reels in Japan (for the CT's, it's UK), and many of the best reels were made in Japan (and still are).    

I believe the Avail Microcast AMB5500CMamiya spool may be the fit for your reel, shallow spool to hold 110-yd of 30-lb braid.  

If this is your spool, the one I linked may be the correct one:  

Definitely before you buy, ask questions about parts  - contact Jun at Japan Tackle - he has excellent English.  

Back to your original question, the size bearings you need for your spindle caps are 3x10x4 mm.  

[redmeansdistortion]

10 hours ago, Blk69 said:

Just out of curiosity, how did these non Ultracast reels perform when new?  

Honestly, they do perform well but not to their fullest potential.  Svangsta likes to overdo it on the grease and it really slows them down.  If you have a Dremel and some metal polishing paste, you can massage a lot of performance out of one without spending the money on hotter bearings.  

 

Here's my regimen for Ultracast reels, a Dremel and metal polish is required.  Polish the idler gear stud then hit that with some good lubricant.  I like TSI301 in that area.  Polish the worm gear end where it contacts the worm bushing, shoot the worm gear with TSI301.  Next, polish the inside of the line guide both where the pawl resides and the main portion that traverses the worm guard.  Spray those newly polished areas with TSI301.  Next, polish the spool axle where the pinion gear makes contact then give it a shot of TSI301.  A little TSI301 on the face of the axle bushing where the spool pinion makes contact.  Lastly, polish the brake drum, but do not use any lube here since you need the friction to provide braking force.  For my bearings, I like to use a small drop of TSI321 and spin them until they quiet down.  Once they have quieted down, you know the oil has worked its way in there.  This process takes about 30 minutes and doesn't cost much outside of the lubricants and metal polish.  You'll get 90% the performance of placing a bearing in every conceivable place for 10% the money.  

 

Here's my 4500, still using the factory 25 year old spool bearings.  The only upgrade it has is the carbon drag, everything else is factory parts.  This is with no brake blocks installed.

 

[Blk69]

That looks like my spool.  Will reach to the parts suppliers you recommended.  That is impressive you do not have to relevel you line.  When I strung my Garcia, load heavy to one side.  Was kinda a pain dealing with all that line on the ground.  Sure they make something to make this easier.

8 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

If you have a Dremel and some metal polishing paste, you can massage a lot of performance out of one without spending the money on hotter bearings.  

I do have a dremel and paste.  My reel was just performing so poorly realised something was off.  Set the spool tension to a med to fast fall.  When I cast, the lure often pulls to the left (right handed reel).  Thinking this is due the spool not spinning freely enough.  I just used motor oil, for greasing everything up.  maybe 30W...whatever was in my oil dispenser.  Probable will need the oil you referenced for oiling my Tutula so no harm in trying it on my Garcia.  I got the same performance from my reel as unoiled with 20 lb monofilament as when oiled with 20 lb J-braid line.

[bulldog1935]

54 minutes ago, Blk69 said:

That looks like my spool.  Will reach to the parts suppliers you recommended.  That is impressive you do not have to relevel you line.  When I strung my Garcia, load heavy to one side.  Was kinda a pain dealing with all that line on the ground.  Sure they make something to make this easier...

 

A good probability your spool was not centered because of end-cap tension.  

Of course I can adjust both sides on mine, but I eyeball them as close to center as I can get.  

If you do get a new spool, it's only 5 mm deep for braid, so you shouldn't have the problem, anyway.  But especially loading the spool, use the cap tension just to center the spool.  

 

With the NLW, the 0.21 mm braid tends to hunt to the lowest point on the spool, so it pretty much levels itself when fishing.  Again, I do restore my hand level-wind in my working line a few days after every trip.  It's worth the effort just for potential minor backlash to have a good line lay - a level wind reel won't do this:  tight intimate lay in one direction, and wider, quicker lay in the opposite direction - it's pretty much backlash-proof unless you truly mess up. 

I also have spare deep spools for mono, and took these photos when loading the deep mono spool.  

Some NLW spools like Seigler are designed to get the tight line lay to the left by themselves, so to get perfect level wind, all you have to do is push the line for the quicker, wider line lay to the right.  

[Blk69]

Thank you for sharing.  Will be sure my spool is centered before string my new Tatula.  I just found out I ordered the wrong ratio, 7.1.1 vs the 6.3.1.  As I am new to these type of reels just looking for a good all around reel to learn on.  Do you think I should correct my mistake or just leave it.  Reel is on backorder for several weeks so do have some time to correct.  Ratios look very close to me, assume someone with some experience could tell the difference.  Not sure I could.

[bulldog1935]

Some of the reels I've bought were only available in high speed retrieve at the time - as high as 8.3 gears.  

I put on a longer-pitch handle to tune them to my likes, which has the effect of slowing them down, and putting more torque into the reel through the handle.  

Something else to keep in mind, the diameter of a low profile spool is small compared to the Abu 5000 series spool, so the higher speed gearing may not be much more line pick-up per handle rotation than the Abu 5.3 gears.   

 

I looked up the Abu, 26"-line-picked-up/handle-rotation with 5.3 gears.  

Tatula is the same with 6.3 gears, and 30"/rev with 7.1 gears - that's not a huge difference.  

[Blk69]

Regarding ratios I'm in a little over my head.  Sure after a few months of use will know exactly what I prefer.  

[Deleted account]

On 3/28/2021 at 6:58 PM, bulldog1935 said:

The Ambassadeur Five became the Five Star.  

Here are the schematics available online.  

The 87 versions of the Five has spool spindle fixed in the spool, and bearings in the end plate caps.  

The 89 versions and all the Five Star versions have Ultracast spool, with separate spindle, and bearings in the spool.  

Something else about the round Abu's, the spool drives the LW mechanism during the cast, and truly slicking them requires ball bearing swaps to the idler gear and worm shaft (the custom BB parts are also lightened).  IMO, the ultracast reels can be worth spending money on custom parts to make them slick.  

 

But it would have to be something you really want to do, because a new low profile baitcaster has complete free-spool with LW disengaged during cast, and will work a lot better than you are currently getting on the Abu - a new low profile baitcaster would be less money than customizing an Abu,

 

The one place round Abu has serious cast advantage are the Non-LW surf reels, such as my custom C3-CTs

I rebuilt these with everything slick, everything light, mag (+centrifugal) brakes, and shallow spools for braid, and this was a big dollar project - kept me busy much of last year.  

 

Those are so sexy, I might need some private time and a happy sock. I got my start as a surf rat, and 6500s and 7000s were always getting hot rodded. Penn Squidders and Newell's 229s were also work horses. 

[Blk69]

So I was cleaning out my garage and found a second baitcaster rod/reel.  Forgot I had this one.  Its another Garcia ambassadeur, but labeled 5500C on a Lew's Speed Stick #6-158HOBB, worm rod.  Reel has stickers saying SS ball bearings and  high speed (assuming this is the gear ratio).  Appears to have +20 years old 20 lb test line that is coiled very tight.  This poles performance is actually worse then my other pole already mentioned.  Assuming the old monofilament line on it is hurting performance.  Will try string on some 8 lb mono line to see if things improve.  

Is this reel a better platform to rebuild or about the same as my Ambassadeur 5?  Reel says made in Sweden on it. 

[Blk69]

Was reading this post

and mine is stamped 84-4 88-89.

 

Just so I don't get my hopes up to high....will my Tatula just purchased really outperform these two?

My Ambassadeur 5 stamped 87-0 87-88

 

[Blk69]

One more question, after doing some on line research on this 5500C looks like it was made for many years.  Are they all the same or did Garcia make some changes.  Lot of videos on Youtube on this model, while they differ slightly in paint and stickers are guts the same? 

[redmeansdistortion]

9 minutes ago, Blk69 said:

Just so I don't get my hopes up to high....will my Tatula just purchased really outperform these two?

 

It depends on your uses.  For bass fishing, the Tatula is the better reel for sure.  If you're wanting to throw heavy baits long distance, then the Ambassadeur is better suited.

[bulldog1935]

13 hours ago, Blk69 said:

One more question, after doing some on line research on this 5500C looks like it was made for many years.  Are they all the same or did Garcia make some changes.  Lot of videos on Youtube on this model, while they differ slightly in paint and stickers are guts the same? 

Based on your version of the Five, internally, I would expect the 5500C to be essentially the same.  The C denotes ball bearing.  

I prefer the reels with spindle adjustment caps on both sides, and there's a good chance you could swap parts between both reels.  

Abu Garcia hasn't had functioning schematics pages for about a year;

I believe the Ultracast spools with separate spindle and the bearings in the spool originated with the 5500C3.  

The only date reference I have for Ulracast is 1990, but that relates specifically to the first black CT reel.  

However, the Five schematics I linked in my first reply show Ultracast originated between '87 and '89.  

 

As I mentioned above, both your Abu's drive the level wind mechanism off the spool during the cast.  

Your Tatula does not - the spool is completely disengaged from the level wind during the cast, so it should cast notably farther, simply because the spool can spin faster and longer.  

[Blk69]

12 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

It depends on your uses.  For bass fishing, the Tatula is the better reel for sure.  If you're wanting to throw heavy baits long distance, then the Ambassadeur is better suited.

 

12 hours ago, redmeansdistortion said:

It depends on your uses.  For bass fishing, the Tatula is the better reel for sure.  If you're wanting to throw heavy baits long distance, then the Ambassadeur is better suited.

How heavy of a Lure would I require for the Ambassadeur to be effective?  I'm not used to larger lures.

[redmeansdistortion]

42 minutes ago, Blk69 said:

 

How heavy of a Lure would I require for the Ambassadeur to be effective?  I'm not used to larger lures.

The comfy lower limit of a 5500 is about 3/8.  

[Torres]

Those abu’s are inspirational. Just picked one up form offer up on accident (I wanted the salmon steelhead rod) and  already taking it apart to shine and lube!

[bulldog1935]

This year, I've added a couple more, including a BFS 1500C with Avail shallow spool, mag brake, LW parts, and doesn't need a centrifugal brake to cast up to 7-g lures (1/4 oz) for the light stream rod max rating.  

 

Found a great ebay buy - $80 - on a virtual mint Royal Express 1, essentially a 4600C3.  

I really bought the reel as a vehicle for an AMO shallow braid spool, also Avail mag brake, and Valleyhill LW parts.  This one will cast 3 g to 15+g without making an adjustment.  

  

 

the trick with both of these, though, was get them set up with light mono, and backlash-proof before switching to braid.  

[TnRiver46]

Raise your hand if you wish @bulldog1935lived on your street……..

 

I’ve been a round abu user since 7th grade, almost exclusively 

[Torres]

@bulldog1935 you got an ig? 

[bulldog1935]

@Torres

sorry, no ig, no fb - I hang on a few internet forums, including BR, TKF, FFR, and ORCA. 

I used to make a hobby business of repairing antique reels, cleaning and preservation, etc - mostly fly reels - I still do it, just don't try to get the word out like I used to.  I see a few/year now vs. that many in a month when I was promoting it on classicflyrodforum, and had a very dressy yuku page. I had a niche converting RHW fly reels to LHW. 

And still on those forums, whenever I list an item for sale, they get tend to get snapped up in a hurry.  What can I say, when I'm not fishing, I like petting and tuning fishing reels.  A friend on FFR, whom we've fished together with trips across the country to meet up, calls me the reel whisperer. 

 

I've mailed hundreds of reels back and forth across the country, but honestly, this decade, there's not a shipping service I would trust to send OP's Leonard by Philbrook & Payne. 

 

[Torres]

On 10/2/2021 at 3:11 AM, bulldog1935 said:

@Torres

sorry, no ig, no fb - I hang on a few internet forums, including BR, TKF, FFR, and ORCA. 

I used to make a hobby business of repairing antique reels, cleaning and preservation, etc - mostly fly reels - I still do it, just don't try to get the word out like I used to.  I see a few/year now vs. that many in a month when I was promoting it on classicflyrodforum, and had a very dressy yuku page. I had a niche converting RHW fly reels to LHW. 

And still on those forums, whenever I list an item for sale, they get tend to get snapped up in a hurry.  What can I say, when I'm not fishing, I like petting and tuning fishing reels.  A friend on FFR, whom we've fished together with trips across the country to meet up, calls me the reel whisperer. 

 

I've mailed hundreds of reels back and forth across the country, but honestly, this decade, there's not a shipping service I would trust to send OP's Leonard by Philbrook & Payne. 

 

Beautiful work! Looks like I will be taking reels apart a lot more often. Any others like the ambassadeur you’d recommend? Also enjoy fishing for trout so if there’s a bfs you’d recommend I’d greatly appreciate it! 

On 3/29/2021 at 4:22 AM, redmeansdistortion said:

Honestly, they do perform well but not to their fullest potential.  Svangsta likes to overdo it on the grease and it really slows them down.  If you have a Dremel and some metal polishing paste, you can massage a lot of performance out of one without spending the money on hotter bearings.  

 

Here's my regimen for Ultracast reels, a Dremel and metal polish is required.  Polish the idler gear stud then hit that with some good lubricant.  I like TSI301 in that area.  Polish the worm gear end where it contacts the worm bushing, shoot the worm gear with TSI301.  Next, polish the inside of the line guide both where the pawl resides and the main portion that traverses the worm guard.  Spray those newly polished areas with TSI301.  Next, polish the spool axle where the pinion gear makes contact then give it a shot of TSI301.  A little TSI301 on the face of the axle bushing where the spool pinion makes contact.  Lastly, polish the brake drum, but do not use any lube here since you need the friction to provide braking force.  For my bearings, I like to use a small drop of TSI321 and spin them until they quiet down.  Once they have quieted down, you know the oil has worked its way in there.  This process takes about 30 minutes and doesn't cost much outside of the lubricants and metal polish.  You'll get 90% the performance of placing a bearing in every conceivable place for 10% the money.  

 

Here's my 4500, still using the factory 25 year old spool bearings.  The only upgrade it has is the carbon drag, everything else is factory parts.  This is with no brake blocks installed.

 

Tried polishing and adding the ts1321 had no luck . :(. Spins about 1 and a half and stops, also the spool seems to make contact with the reel itself I can hear the grinding. I’m wondering if it could be that the one I have has no bearing and has the t shaped spool shaft like the picture on the left bulldog posted . Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[bulldog1935]

5 hours ago, Torres said:

... Tried polishing and adding the ts1321 had no luck . :(. Spins about 1 and a half and stops, also the spool seems to make contact with the reel itself I can hear the grinding. I’m wondering if it could be that the one I have has no bearing and has the t shaped spool shaft like the picture on the left bulldog posted . Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Ambassadeurs are touchy about tilt. 

With sufficient side play and too much tilt, both sides of the spool can run into other internal parts - pinion gear on the R/S, and idler gear on the L. 

Even my fancy surf reels with no idler (or spur) gear will "grind" the spool bearing against the bronze "bullet" if tilted too far to the left.