Cleaning House

[soflabasser]

Like many things in life you get what you pay for. Lots of business owners say it is hard to find good workers these days yet they do not offer much money or benefits when looking for people to work with them. Most people with a decent education and good work ethic will not work for anything less than a comfortable pay and benefits since they earned it. A business that offers low pay with little to no benefits will get low skilled employees like the ones you mentioned.

[Jigfishn10]

6 minutes ago, soflabasser said:

Like many things in life you get what you pay for. Lots of business owners say it is hard to find good workers these days yet they do not offer much money or benefits when looking for people to work with them. Most people with a decent education and good work ethic will not work for anything less than a comfortable pay and benefits since they earned it. A business that offers low pay with little to no benefits and will get low skilled employees like the ones you mentioned.

I’m in commercial construction and can only speak to my field. What you mention in your post is very true. 
There are good ones (bolded) but are few and far between. 
The only thing I can add to your post, again it just pertains to my field, we brought it on ourselves. 
Our construction schedules got to ridiculously shortened in duration that we couldn’t make time - in most cases - to teach the next generation. That’s on us mostly and partially on the educated person who thinks they deserve a salary of someone who’s more seasoned.

 

Great post bud

[Koz]

10 hours ago, NYWayfarer said:

I have been an operations manager for 15 years. In that time I realized:

 

1) People don’t check their personalities at the door when they arrive at work. 

 

2) The company wants steak (great candidates)on hamburger money (entry level low paying jobs)

 

3) Most people are good at something. Their resume can usually help you pinpoint that.

 

I have gotten very good at interviews. I look for a smile, a “Thanks for giving me an opportunity to interview”, knowledge about the organization and the job they are applying for and questions for me other than how much does the job pay.

 

The interview is their foot in the door. Then it’s their responsibility to come in and stay in. If I hire a lemon I can manage them out through progress reviews.

 

Historically I wind up hiring over qualified individuals who don’t stay long but the work they give me while they are around is great. Many individuals have moved on to better positions in my company and I wear that as a badge of honor.

 

All of this is to say I feel your pain. It will get better. 
 

And I would watch your maintenance chief. His judgment is questionable. With relationships for sure, but that can spill over to his work ethic.

 

I'm proud that I've mentored a number of people throughout the years in this industry and this hotel actually overpays to begin with for the hotel industry. We're in such a rural area it's hard to find anyone, especially when federal relief money is still available.

 

Today I had 6 confirmed interviews for room attendant positions. ZERO showed up and no one called to reschedule.

 

I would also say that at least 90% of the applicants move from job to job every few months. I normally toss those in the trash right away, but with so few applicants I sometimes need to take a chance. Then again, most of those were no shows for the interview today.

6 hours ago, Glenn said:

Actually, there are 2 such shows.

 

Hotel Impossible and Hotel Hell

But those are based on incompetent management and ownership.  I have employees grousing because they now have to be accountable and I've implement simple things like key controls and inventories. That makes it harder for stuff to walk out the door.

 

I was telling my mentor about all this stuff that went on at this hotel before I got there and he swore I was joking. I wasn't. I'm the guy hosting those TV shows.

6 hours ago, Biglittle8 said:

Sounds like the owner should have been keeping tabs on the previous managers. The issues seem to be the product of a festering long term lack of proper management.... But that's why you're there! Seems like you got a good handle on it Koz!

The owner is a great guy, but he's a bit old school and lives four hours away. I think the previous GM's hoodwinked him into thinking the hotel was at its peak. They were wrong. Way wrong.

 

Just doing the basics here would lead to huge gains in profit. I honestly thing with a modest renovation to the property that I could double the revenues and profits they had in their best year. Let's hope I don't bumble it!

[gim]

2 hours ago, A-Jay said:

In the military, the entire pay scale is public knowledge.

Same for the federal government. I know what every single one of my co workers make.

 

Contrary to popular belief though, not every employee who works for uncle Sam is lazy or over paid. There are some fantastic hard working people working in my field and there are a few rotten apples, just like every other job locale out there.

 

I know you’re a veteran A-Jay so I don’t want to offend you or any other veterans, but I can tell you first hand there are some veterans that work for my agency that down right suck. I respect them for what they have done but there are some that are lazy and unproductive, and they think they can do that because of their status. And it’s virtually impossible to remove them.

[Chris at Tech]

Short-term pain for long-term gain.

[Koz]

5 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Let me take this from the position of worker instead of manager and let you know what ive been seeing in my job lately. Background on me is ive worked for a biofuel company for 7.5 years..I'm a plant technician 3 so that means I'm lead operator on my crew and I'm in charge of shift when my supervisor is gone. So yes I have some leadership and management responsibility but I'm not on the management team.

Recently we hired a guy with some maintenance background but nothing pertaining to what we do...end up finding out he is making as much money as the lead maintenance tech 2 on my day crew...found out because he has a big mouth and has been bragging about it. This is a huge management fail as this may cost them a quality experienced maintenance guy based off resentment and perceived lack of respect for his ability and tenure all to save a new guy that can find his own a#$ with two hands and a flashlight. Stupid.

Another incident occurred where a maintenance tech on the night crew I follow got fired for "attitude issues" and poor attendance. Normally I'd have no issue with this except in this case there is a guy who is plant tech 1 that's been with us maybe 8-10 months and in that time he's missed more work then I have in 7+ years...yet he still has a job. Our management team has shown us they play favorites and that there in consistent accountability across the board. Weak and pathetic.

Best part in all this is they keep saying that they can't afford to lose any good people because of the day to day demands. Yet it seems to me that through mismanagement they are trying to force people out. Yes we all know they have a business to run but nobody wants to work for people they don't trust.

You think its bad when the inmates run the asylum...what about when the people in charge are power hungry and think they are not subject to the rules they enforce so they make them up as they go to fit the narrative? Hard to take managers seriously when they can't manage there way out of a wet paper bag.

You're absolutely correct to be frustrated about things like that.  I will say this - I do the best to take care of my team. If I have a valuable associate I will fight for them to get every dime I can get them even if the owner disagrees. But I've also had great owners that tell me they don;t care what I pay the team, as long as I bring in the bottom line numbers.

 

I do my best to treat everyone with the same respect and discipline. I've had to terminate some people that I knew were beneficial to the company but they broke rules that could not be ignored. We all have our biases, but I try to keep those minimized and I am not afraid to ask for second or third opinions when I know I have a negative bias for one reason or another. But again, we all make mistakes. I just try to minimize them.

5 hours ago, huZZah said:

Funny that the saying is it’s hard to find good employees. Personal experience tells me it’s equally as hard to find good employers.  Been treated like crap at more than one job by someone that I’m sure tells people “it’s so hard to find good workers these days.”

 

To OP hang in there. Sometimes it sucks. But there’s plenty of good people looking for jobs with good people. 

I agree 100%. Of been on both sides of that.

4 hours ago, TOXIC said:

I hate to say it but unskilled or low skilled employees that you are referencing will devote their time to things away from the job and advancement.  Look at their pay scale and remember you get what you pay for.  Having retired from the government, I was groomed to manage people from the very first year of my employment, it was made perfectly clear that those in my particular position were the future of the agency and all the while we worked different positions, we were constantly being trained as management.  The biggest mistake companies make is to take those who do the job exceptionally well and make them supervisors or managers.  Managing is a skill all its own and a very, very difficult one at that.  When I reached different levels of management skill, my responsibilities were increased.  At one time I was responsible for 700 employees but that did not even rank with some of the positions I had in the 34 years that were more difficult as a manager.  It’s a tough job and it’s even tougher when the people you have to manage have no vested interest in the job or their future because they can quit and walk out tomorrow and probably find another job within the week.  

You're correct on that. However, one of the unique aspects of the hospitality industry is the room for growth and advancement from line level to management without the benefit of a formal education. My goal is to always mentor those that want to advance and help place them when they have the skills and attitude to be promoted, even if it means I lose them at my property.

 

Frankly, I was **shocked** at the pay scale here because hourly associates were earning so much for a property that is not in an urban location. I mean, ridiculously high hourly wages for all departments.

 

But here's the kicker - the previous "maintenance" guy (I use that term loosely) would tell the GM and owner he could not do the work or repairs on the clock and it was a *special* job that required contract labor - from him! He made $33k one year doing that. I had never heard of that before. That guy is now a part time, weekend houseman.

 

 

[Koz]

2 hours ago, throttleplate said:

retired for 11 years now but when i was a heavy equipment mechanic i was moved into the shop foreman position.

On a friday morning my boss told me i was to fire an employee at the end of the day. I was glad to do it to get this useless person out of our shop.

The friday i fired him he was mad because instead of the boss firing him i was doing it and he disliked me.

 

On saturday morning i went outside to get into my truck and the windows on the drivers side were smashed and a big rock the size of a softball was laying next to the truck.

I picked up the rock and put it in the cab and drove over to his house and rang the doorbell but no one answered so i left the rock at his doorstep and never had another problem.

Scary. That housekeeping supervisor I fired? Before I fired her I ran a background check and found out she did federal time for attempted murder. I got a restraining order and a no trespass after I fired her.

1 hour ago, soflabasser said:

Like many things in life you get what you pay for. Lots of business owners say it is hard to find good workers these days yet they do not offer much money or benefits when looking for people to work with them. Most people with a decent education and good work ethic will not work for anything less than a comfortable pay and benefits since they earned it. A business that offers low pay with little to no benefits will get low skilled employees like the ones you mentioned.

Most of the hourly staff at my property makes more than those working at the Ritz Carlton down the road and more than any other hotel in the area.

 

It seems that the previous GM's were pushovers and would strong arm the GM for more money. I will go all out to keep good employees, but a lot of these folks are just warm bodies.

[CountryboyinDC]

1 hour ago, gimruis said:

there are some that are lazy and unproductive, and they think they can do that because of their status. And it’s virtually impossible to remove them.

Holds true for any federal employee hired under Title 5 or practically any other appointment authority.  For every veteran in the civil service that I've seen this statement ring true, I can point to 10 non-veteran federal employees that it rings equally true.  

 

I'm not trying to derail this thread.  I hope you can find some employees @Koz.  You might need to get creative in your sourcing.  Amazon hires retirees that live in RVs during the holiday season.  Sometimes the answer is far from obvious.

[VolFan]

Having worked in high end hospitality in a very rural environment, and now in a gov job, I guess I can toss out a suggestion- If you have a local community college or high school, go to their career day or talk to their guidance counselor or the like about looking for people. You’d be surprised by how motivated people are by giving them their first job and a chance at success. For more skilled and/or management positions, if it’s possible, you may consider recruiting from outside the area and letting them live on-property or give them a stipend until they can find housing. A ground-up opportunity would be a huge opportunity from a new grad of Johnson and Wales or really any major college hospitality program. You should have a pretty good-sized pool of people to choose from right now with the hit the hospitality industry has taken over the past year.

[NYWayfarer]

5 hours ago, A-Jay said:

In the military, the entire pay scale is public knowledge.

And these folks signed up to die for us. 

Just saying.

A-Jay

 

Most folks that look for jobs in private industry are there for merit based salaries and raises.

 

If I can produce more widgets than my fellow co-workers I would like to be paid accordingly. The problem is most of these systems are broken and merit gets replaced by favoritism.

 

In the example I gave above the manager at the bank I worked for got a percentage of money each year to divide amongst his team. After taking his slice of that pie, his favorites came next. The rest got the scraps. It’s not hard to see why he got let go. 
 

I got laid off from my job there. It was for the best. I love my current job. I don’t control the salaries of my team. Our Human Resources department handles salaries. I am aware of what my team makes and how the base salary and increases are determined. It’s very fair including our merit based bonus program. 

[throttleplate]

4 hours ago, CountryboyinDC said:

Holds true for any federal employee hired under Title 5 or practically any other appointment authority.  For every veteran in the civil service that I've seen this statement ring true, I can point to 10 non-veteran federal employees that it rings equally true.  

 

I'm not trying to derail this thread.  I hope you can find some employees @Koz.  You might need to get creative in your sourcing.  Amazon hires retirees that live in RVs during the holiday season.  Sometimes the answer is far from obvious.

you must have watched that movie?

[CountryboyinDC]

6 hours ago, throttleplate said:

you must have watched that movie?

I think you must be talking about the way Amazon temporarily sources employees.  I honestly can't remember exactly where I learned about that, but I'd imagine it was in some management/leadership training I had to take.

[TnRiver46]

I've worked at a hotel for over a decade, but as a fishing guide so I can stay behind the scenes and avoid most of the hectic stuff. Let me know if you need some pointers on "fish with @Koz" night haha.

 

I can get you some OT guide hours @Jigfishn10.......

 

 

 

[Jigfishn10]

21 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I can get you some OT guide hours @Jigfishn10.......

I probably won’t make much in tips but I’m sure I’ll have some good laughs. ?

[TnRiver46]

13 minutes ago, Jigfishn10 said:

I probably won’t make much in tips but I’m sure I’ll have some good laughs. ?

Koz would have to tell us to quit laughing out by the fire pit of his hotel 

[throttleplate]

8 hours ago, CountryboyinDC said:

I think you must be talking about the way Amazon temporarily sources employees.  I honestly can't remember exactly where I learned about that, but I'd imagine it was in some management/leadership training I had to take.

there was a movie that came out last year starring the actress last name McDermont whom lived in her camper and traveled around and lived like a homeless person.

Every x-mas she would show up at an amazon distribution center and park her camper and work for amazon untill season was over.

[Koz]

22 hours ago, VolFan said:

Having worked in high end hospitality in a very rural environment, and now in a gov job, I guess I can toss out a suggestion- If you have a local community college or high school, go to their career day or talk to their guidance counselor or the like about looking for people. You’d be surprised by how motivated people are by giving them their first job and a chance at success. For more skilled and/or management positions, if it’s possible, you may consider recruiting from outside the area and letting them live on-property or give them a stipend until they can find housing. A ground-up opportunity would be a huge opportunity from a new grad of Johnson and Wales or really any major college hospitality program. You should have a pretty good-sized pool of people to choose from right now with the hit the hospitality industry has taken over the past year.

I usually go to county or city food pantries and not only volunteer my time but also use it to work with that pantry to get people back to work. However, we have only private, church based pantries here that do not want to include back to work programs.

 

I've also done the seasonal worker and intern routes as you mentioned, but that was with large resort properties. We're a small boutique (well, when the renovations are done) property.

 

What's killing us now is the government assistance programs. Even though we pay a lot more than that, a lot of people that normally take these entry level jobs choose to stay home and do nothing.

 

However, I really appreciate your input.

[CountryboyinDC]

4 hours ago, throttleplate said:

there was a movie that came out last year starring the actress last name McDermont whom lived in her camper and traveled around and lived like a homeless person.

It took me a second to track that down - 'Nomadland' is the movie I found.

But the fact that Amazon facilitates people that live in their campers to come work in its fulfillment centers is indeed real.  It was an answer to an impossible question of how to get an exponent more workforce for a relatively short period of time, and this proved to be an available untapped workforce.

[VolFan]

For what it’s worth- I wasn’t talking about interns or seasonal work. You get a person or two interested in the hospitality field to come from a hospitality program - people that want to do the job and generally have few strings attached of family or whatnot and give them a great start in a boutique property. You get one or two high school students that want to work and they will usually bring a couple more that they want to work with. Good money and great resume builder for them. A couple good hires usually leads to more, especially if you can hire from good pools. 

[12poundbass]

2 hours ago, Koz said:

What's killing us now is the government assistance programs. Even though we pay a lot more than that, a lot of people that normally take these entry level jobs choose to stay home and do nothing.

This is our problem now too! People apply, then when it’s time for an interview (virtual) they’re a no show. They apply because they have to apply for a certain number of jobs a week. 
 

We have a lot of job hoppers apply as well which isn’t very appealing. Then we get some good candidates on paper anyways, and they can’t pass one of three things, drug test, driving record, or background check. 
 

We need to hire 5-6 this year. We started a training class last week...two people. 

[Koz]

2 hours ago, 12poundbass said:

This is our problem now too! People apply, then when it’s time for an interview (virtual) they’re a no show. They apply because they have to apply for a certain number of jobs a week. 
 

We have a lot of job hoppers apply as well which isn’t very appealing. Then we get some good candidates on paper anyways, and they can’t pass one of three things, drug test, driving record, or background check. 
 

We need to hire 5-6 this year. We started a training class last week...two people. 

I'm on a streak of 7 in a row no shows for room attendant job interviews. Heck, a month ago I had an interview for housekeeping supervisor who was late to the interview, I called her and she said she was in her car and on her way. She was a no show. Then TODAY she had the nerve to apply for a front office position at my hotel!

 

Good luck with your search. Maybe those in our position need to form a support group. I've had one day off since the last week in January and that was an 8 hour round trip to pick up my son. I've worked 82 hours already this week and I still have one day to go. I could handle this better when I was in my 30's!

 

The worst part is that my hotel is steps from the lake and I haven't fished all week!

 

2 hours ago, VolFan said:

For what it’s worth- I wasn’t talking about interns or seasonal work. You get a person or two interested in the hospitality field to come from a hospitality program - people that want to do the job and generally have few strings attached of family or whatnot and give them a great start in a boutique property. You get one or two high school students that want to work and they will usually bring a couple more that they want to work with. Good money and great resume builder for them. A couple good hires usually leads to more, especially if you can hire from good pools. 

I may try that. Scary, because the schools here are lousy. I have my son still enrolled in his SC school and doing virtual school.

[soflabasser]

On 3/19/2021 at 7:11 PM, Koz said:

Most of the hourly staff at my property makes more than those working at the Ritz Carlton down the road and more than any other hotel in the area.

 

It seems that the previous GM's were pushovers and would strong arm the GM for more money. I will go all out to keep good employees, but a lot of these folks are just warm bodies.

Nobody wants to work for a business that pays less than a comfortable wage so expect to get lots of low skill level people if the pay and benefits is not worth it.

On 3/19/2021 at 5:28 PM, Jigfishn10 said:

I’m in commercial construction and can only speak to my field. What you mention in your post is very true. 
There are good ones (bolded) but are few and far between. 
The only thing I can add to your post, again it just pertains to my field, we brought it on ourselves. 
Our construction schedules got to ridiculously shortened in duration that we couldn’t make time - in most cases - to teach the next generation. That’s on us mostly and partially on the educated person who thinks they deserve a salary of someone who’s more seasoned.

 

Great post bud

Every profession is different so different things are expected from employees. There are professions you do not have to go to college where a person can make a comfortable pay with benefits but those jobs are not as common as the lower paying ones. A seasoned person should get more pay if they are more knowledgeable not just because they have been working longer. For example there are lots of people with +10 years experience in 1 job, yet they are terrible. These types of people do as little as possible to keep a job. A motivated person with a good education willing to learn and work hard is far more valuable to any business so business owners have to be willing to offer good pay for such people.

[slonezp]

On 3/20/2021 at 7:16 AM, Jigfishn10 said:

I probably won’t make much in tips but I’m sure I’ll have some good laughs. ?

Show a little bit of leg and you might be surprised.

On 3/20/2021 at 10:53 PM, Koz said:

I'm on a streak of 7 in a row no shows for room attendant job interviews. Heck, a month ago I had an interview for housekeeping supervisor who was late to the interview, I called her and she said she was in her car and on her way. She was a no show. Then TODAY she had the nerve to apply for a front office position at my hotel!

 

Good luck with your search. Maybe those in our position need to form a support group. I've had one day off since the last week in January and that was an 8 hour round trip to pick up my son. I've worked 82 hours already this week and I still have one day to go. I could handle this better when I was in my 30's!

 

The worst part is that my hotel is steps from the lake and I haven't fished all week!

 

I may try that. Scary, because the schools here are lousy. I have my son still enrolled in his SC school and doing virtual school.

If it makes you feel any better, there are people in the skilled trades making $50 an hour that couldn't find their browneye with both hands.

[TnRiver46]

9 hours ago, slonezp said:

 

If it makes you feel any better, there are people in the skilled trades making $50 an hour that couldn't find their browneye with both hands.

That’s good work if you can get it 

[slonezp]

12 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

That’s good work if you can get it 

That's union pipefitter scale in Chicago