And the beat goes on...

[TnRiver46]

On 3/9/2021 at 11:48 PM, Bluebasser86 said:

Digging up crawfish ? What are they digging them up with?? Bass out there sucking up mouths full of rocks and mud trying to catch craws? Every tried to get craws out of rocks small enough for a bass to move around? It's about impossible as they just move from one hiding spot to the next.

You never seen a bass toting a shovel? And here I thought you spent a lot of time on the water 

[lo n slo]

On 3/9/2021 at 5:46 PM, Choporoz said:

Ha!  I, too am amazed at the 'information' spread.  I often recall the line about why lizard lures are good in the spring....because bass get mad at them for raiding the beds.  Some guy thought he was smart and that line spread like wildfire as 'fact' for decades.

had someone on here tell me that when i first joned the forum about six years ago. but i knew better because i’ve been throwing them almost year round for many years. 

[Paul Roberts]

On 3/9/2021 at 9:48 PM, Bluebasser86 said:

Digging up crawfish ? What are they digging them up with?? Bass out there sucking up mouths full of rocks and mud trying to catch craws? Every tried to get craws out of rocks small enough for a bass to move around? It's about impossible as they just move from one hiding spot to the next.

Actually, some research into the mechanics of bass jaws has suggested that LM's and SM's jaws have evolved toward maximizing different jobs. The short jaws of SM's provide much greater bite pressure, and they’ve been found to use “biting” to extract crayfish from crevices. LM’s longer jaws make them less efficient at biting, but more efficient at suction. It’s suggested this is due to LM's evolving in softer substrates where suction is more effective. Presumably —and I'd have to look at the papers to see what was found about this— SM’s smaller mouths should also inc suction pressure, but over a much smaller, more focused, area. 

 

As to red teeth… Some SM’s have been found, at times and places, to get quite banged up on the forepart of the body from aggressively extracting craws from crevices. But this is external damage. I’ve not looked into “red teeth” in SM as I don’t have them here. It would seem that SM would be more likely to show “bloody” or damaged teeth owing to their biting ability. A perusal of internet images would probably provide a look. The SM's I've caught in NY (and they would number in the 1000's) never showed "damage" inside the mouth, at least that I can remember.

 

Strikes me that "bloody" teeth is akin to bloody damaged tails from spawning. I've just not seen it, or been able to attribute it to bed digging. In the close-up video I've shot of bed-digging bass, they clear sediment with water pressure, the scarcely ever contacting the substrate. This could be different elsewhere of course. But most tail damage (usually scarring) is not from "bed-digging" but from sleeping, resting on bottom propped up on the bottom edge of the tail. Took me some time to finally video some sleeping bass.

[Team9nine]

On 3/9/2021 at 11:48 PM, Bluebasser86 said:

Digging up crawfish ? What are they digging them up with?? Bass out there sucking up mouths full of rocks and mud trying to catch craws? Every tried to get craws out of rocks small enough for a bass to move around? It's about impossible as they just move from one hiding spot to the next.

 

13 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

Actually, some research into the mechanics of bass jaws has suggested that LM's and SM's jaws have evolved toward maximizing different jobs. The short jaws of SM's provide much greater bite pressure, and they’ve been found to use “biting” to extract crayfish from crevices. LM’s longer jaws make them less efficient at biting, but more efficient at suction. It’s suggested this is due to LM's evolving in softer substrates where suction is more effective. Presumably —and I'd have to look at the papers to see what was found about this— SM’s smaller mouths should also inc suction pressure, but over a much smaller, more focused, area. 

 

As to red teeth… Some SM’s have been found, at times and places, to get quite banged up on the forepart of the body from aggressively extracting craws from crevices. But this is external damage. I’ve not looked into “red teeth” in SM as I don’t have them here. It would seem that SM would be more likely to show “bloody” or damaged teeth owing to their biting ability. A perusal of internet images would probably provide a look. The SM's I've caught in NY (and they would number in the 1000's) never showed "damage" inside the mouth, at least that I can remember.

 

To @Bluebasser86 point (I think?), and along Paul’s lines, there are studies showing that largemouth adjust their feeding technique (and related jaw/suction function) to prey type. In particular, largemouth use much more powerful suction feeding when dealing with prey such as crayfish that are on bottom or in substrate vs. fish prey. Ramming into rocks chasing a crayfish makes for good YouTube content, bit it’s likely not the normal feeding behavior of LMB. Suck ‘em up like a Dyson and blow the gravel and mud out after you crunch them ?

[Bubba 460]

I fish year round and see the red lips and crushers on bass in winter. Years ago after doing about an hour worth of reading on the internet and various bass forums on the question; " Why largemouth bass have red crushers and lips?" I was not able to find or come up with a definitive answer. Views were far ranging to include: bacterial infection, cold water redness, eating crayfish, eating lots of food and several other explanations. But I found no guaranteed scientific explanation on why bass have red crushers and lips. Plus, why is it that you only find this mouth coloration in the winter?, I mean bass eat craws in the summer too and that coloration is not there. Look at smallmouth bass, they eat tons of craws and they don't have read crushers in the summer. Nope, I'm not convinced that the coloration in the mouth of winter bass is from eating crayfish.

 

One year, believing bass were indeed hammering grayfish in winter and that's why they had this condition , I  had been throwing craw baits on the bottom ~ one would believe that if ALL the bass we're catching have the redness from eating craws in the winter, they would just be all over these craw imitations but they are not. I have hopped imitations craws  around for hours one winter with no interest from bass, yet throw a jerk bait and catch bass or a blade-bait for bass on the bottom.

 

So in my little rusted brain I'm not convinced that the redness in the mouth of winter bass is from eating craws as generally thought but rather a condition having to do with cold water and blood flow.  The reddening appears to occur in the fish's tooth pad and crusher areas.  Those are the two places in the bass's mouth having to do with taste and nerve receptors. That's how bass "feel/taste things before eating it ( they'll sure spit a lure out~ right?) These reddish areas in the bass's mouth in cold water seem to be the nerve, and sensitivity areas and used for tasting and feeling prey and these indicators need extra blood in those locations of the mouth. All bass seem to have this condition in winter.


-


 

[huZZah]

Well if you can put lipstick on a pig why not a bass?

 

Of the fish I’ve caught this winter, so Dec till now, only a couple had the red lip. And only one of those was super cold water. 

[Paul Roberts]

On 3/10/2021 at 4:51 AM, N Florida Mike said:

At least weather men are right 50% of the time. (Which is about 50% better than other forms of news)

I think we can all be glad that we're not relying on me, or just anyone, to provide a weather forecast! And as to "the news"... don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater"!

 

On 3/10/2021 at 4:57 AM, Jigfishn10 said:

I'm pretty much 100%
”Tonight’s forecast? Will be dark.” ?

Yes, the sun is about the most predictable thing we've got.

[J Francho]

2 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

Took me some time to finally video some sleeping bass.

It's way easier to get video of a sleeping bass angler.

 

Are we certain that ALL lmb get the redness in cold water?  My days in early spring have so few catches, I can't clearly remember anything other seeing it, but couldn't say if it was all of them.  Could be a hormonal thing leading to spawn?

 

 

 

 

 

All the smallies pics I have do not have this at all, and some were from REALLY cold water.

[GReb]

The truth is probably simple. More fish are caught in spring on red because more guys fish them. How many continue to throw red May through October?

[WRB]

Isn’t red a color bass can’t see?

Bass eating crawdads usually smell like crawdads and have hard lumps in the belly. 

Tom

 

[J Francho]

16 minutes ago, WRB said:

Isn’t red a color bass can’t see?

I think so...

[Jigfishn10]

1 hour ago, J Francho said:

I think so...

How many years ago was that!?

[Paul Roberts]

On 3/11/2021 at 11:38 AM, J Francho said:

It's way easier to get video of a sleeping bass angler.

 

Are we certain that ALL lmb get the redness in cold water?  My days in early spring have so few catches, I can't clearly remember anything other seeing it, but couldn't say if it was all of them.  Could be a hormonal thing leading to spawn?

 

All the smallies pics I have do not have this at all, and some were from REALLY cold water.

You know, I've never got a shot of a sleeping bass angler! Lord knows I've tried!

 

Thanks for the observations on SM.

 

No, not all bass have red teeth in the cold water period. I start to see it in the fall as water gets cold. I'd give a temp I've seen it starting but haven't bothered to track it down; Seems to be in the low 50s. And it's variable. Some fish have it and others "have a little" and still others, "Nope not red yet." It's most obvious in really cold water, and the reddest I've seen —brilliant scarlet, like fresh arterial blood (well oxygenated)— are fish caught in water below 40F, often through the ice.

 

That said, Brian @Team9nine and I both have exchanged some photos of bass that have red teeth in the summer. These have never been the scarlet red teeth, that practically glow, but a dark red —like venous blood (depleted O2). And these have not been common. I did send Brian a photo of one with dark blue teeth though!

 

Originally I did think it might be related to reproductive —or cold acclimatization— chemistry, or both. The current best info (from Bob Lusk) is that it's stress related —cold-stress. Yet here's an interesting observation that shocked me at first. I contacted a researcher who has done quite a bit of work on cold physiology in LMB. And he's in Canada. And he was going ice fishing that weekend! Could it be any better? He was unaware of red teeth, but watched for them as he fished. When he got back to me, he didn't say how many he caught, but he did not see any red teeth! What the...????!

 

So... Here's my next hypothesis, one we can all get ahead on as a future myth  : That bright red teeth are indeed cold-stress related. And that far northern LMB are adapted to the long cold winters up there. Many of "our" bass populations may be less so. It's been found experimentally that when northern and southern (not FL bass) bass swap regions, the northern bass do just fine down south. The southern ones die in northern winters. Add to this that many of our bass populations are from hatchery stock from... who knows where, it could be that many of our LM's are not well adapted to real cold? 

 

Another thing: I've never seen bloody tails and fins like I've seen in photos of early spring southern bass, leading people to believe that these fish are "digging beds" even though bass don't need to bloody their tails to clear a bed, and... many of those bloody-tailed fish are females. (And the beat goes on…)

 

Interestingly (yet again —remarkable how that is), is that I have seen those bloody fins in northern pike. I never kept track of time of year on that and I've not caught them in a while (not many here). But, it could be that those literally bleeding fins in pike could be stress-related. It has appeared to me that, in pike, it's from capillaries bursting in the fins and even under the scales along the belly. Similarly, in the coldest of water, when I've seen the brightest red in bass teeth (obviously its well oxygenated blood), there's red in the anal fin and along the belly too, just under the skin, all the way up to the throat. You have to look real close to see it. At a glance the white belly has a pinkish glow to it.

 

So, are there populations of LMB out there, besides those Canadian ones, that do not get red teeth in cold water? We seem to notice the ones with red teeth, but maybe not the ones without?

 

As to crayfish munching causing red teeth in bass... Here's a mid-summer caught LM with not a glimmer of red in the teeth. And the teeth do not appear broken, bent, or missing. And what was in its stomach. What ever the red is, it ain’t from eating crayfish. I think we can put that one to rest.

 

 

 

 

On 3/11/2021 at 12:11 PM, WRB said:

Isn’t red a color bass can’t see?

Bass eating crawdads usually smell like crawdads and have hard lumps in the belly. 

Tom

 

They actually have a peak sensitivity at the red end of the spectrum. It's the blue end they have a hard time discriminating -Which would mean that Black/Blue is really Black (or Black/Gray in really good lighting) to a bass. Speaking of "the beat going on".

 

And yeah, if there's enough of them in there, you can feel em. Not much else feels like that. I did catch a small pike once that had a painted turtle in its stomach. Didn't have to kill that fish to find out; It was pretty obvious.

[N Florida Mike]

6 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

And as to "the news"... don't "throw the baby out with the bathwater"!

Too late for that at my house. No               “ news” is good news..