Braid breaking at the knot point

[Pkfish49]

A brief intro about my experience before the question:

 

I've been freshwater fishing since 2017, but climate, geography, and economics had limited my opportunities, which is why I'm still a beginner at so many aspects.  Living in South Florida now, I fish almost every day, and hopefully, I'll be a pro at the by year's end.  For the last four years, I had always used 10 LB mono on 4000 series spinning reels.  Whether I tie on directly, or use a snap swivel setup, I always use a clinch knot.  Never had any problems with this setup with the 10 LB mono.  I just tried 15 LB braid on one of my reels and immediately ran into problems.  I tied on a #4 EWG hook with a clinch knot and hooked a plastic worm.  A few casts in, the the hook came flying off the line mid air!  I don't fully understand everything that happened, because after reeling in, there was no line through any of the eyes.  I'm thinking that possibly I reeled it in past the eyes and not used to looking for thin braid, I didn't see myself doing that.

 

I re-tied on another #4 EWG with the same knot and shortly after hooked a small (less than 1 pound) bass.  The hook snapped off before I could bring it to shore.   It was at the very end of the retrieve, just as I was lifting it out of the water.  Later in the session, I was able to finally catch a Bass, but it was short and light, one of the smallest I've caught.

 

What's going on?  Does the clinch knot not work at all with 15 LB braid, or is something else at play?  Should I use another knot?

 

I'm hoping to work out the kinks with braid, because it doesn't knot from memory.  So far, I've also noticed that I can cast farther with 15 LB braid than 10 LB mono.  

 

Also, I lost 2 or 3 small Bass during this session that I would have brought in with mono.  Do I need a modified hookset, or am I just getting used to the feel of the line?

 

Ty

[jbsoonerfan]

I would guess your knot is slipping versus breaking.

[Russ E]

Clinch knot is not a good  knot for braid.  Actually it is not a great knot for any line.

It probably is not breaking, but slipping and coming untied. 

I only use braid about 10 percent of the time. When I do the only knot I use is the Palomar.

Funny thing is , I do not use the Palomar for any other line

[jimmyjoe]

   1) Depending on the brand, braid can cut down into itself under pull.

   2) Are you sure you tightened the knot down? Braid doesn't "slip" like mono.

   3) Don't worry; if you use braid on a spinning setup, you WILL have twist. It won't show itself right away, because the fabric of braid is so tolerant. But it will build up to a certain point, and then ..... KA-POW! You'll have a knot you have to cut out.

 

p.s. -  I think @Russ E may be onto something!  ?  

p.p.s. - you're not using cheap chinese braid you got off the auction site, are you?    ?      jj

[Russ E]

Just now, Russ E said:

Clinch knot is not a good  knot for braid.  Actually it is not a great knot for any line.

It probably is not breaking, but slipping and coming untied. 

I only use braid about 10 percent of the time. When I do the only knot I use is the Palomar.

Funny thing is , I do not use the Palomar for any other line

Sorry @jbsoonerfan. I was not copying you. You must have replied the same time as me.

[Bakablo1]

Palomar knot for baits and hooks.. Double uni for leaders.. Pull nice a snug and u should be good to go! 

[Mike L]

If you use a Palomar or Snell when using braid and tie both correctly, you’re good.
 

 

 

Mike 

[Pkfish49]

40 minutes ago, jimmyjoe said:

   1) Depending on the brand, braid can cut down into itself under pull.

   2) Are you sure you tightened the knot down? Braid doesn't "slip" like mono.

   3) Don't worry; if you use braid on a spinning setup, you WILL have twist. It won't show itself right away, because the fabric of braid is so tolerant. But it will build up to a certain point, and then ..... KA-POW! You'll have a knot you have to cut out.

 

p.s. -  I think @Russ E may be onto something!  ?  

p.p.s. - you're not using cheap chinese braid you got off the auction site, are you?    ?      jj

Getting up early tomorrow and will try the Palomar.  Not 100% sure whether I properly tightened the knots, as braid is so thin and I have a hard time seeing larger diameter mono.  Spooler guy at Bass Pro Shops sold me something off his shelves, so I assume it was a good brand.

 

41 minutes ago, Russ E said:

Clinch knot is not a good  knot for braid.  Actually it is not a great knot for any line.

 

I have to disagree with the second sentence.  I've caught 2-3 pound Bass and tons of panfish with the clinch knot applied to mono.  I did have a few Pickerel chew through my line, but those losses had to be less than 1% of the time.   What I did notice is that with mono lighter than 10 LB, I had to do fewer wraparounds that I did with 10, otherwise the line would break, sometimes right away.  I do wonder If I could get a working braid clinch knot with fewer wraps, but am not going to bother for now.

I'm going to fish all day tomorrow and will reply to let everybody know how the Palomar worked out.

 

In any event, I'm really hoping the braid works out for me.  If I get twists eventually, I'll deal with it.  This afternoon, I fished with a newly spooled reel for an hour without any twists or knots.  That happens 0% of the time for me with newly spooled mono.

[MN Fisher]

4 minutes ago, Pkfish49 said:

I'm going to fish all day tomorrow and will reply to let everybody know how the Palomar worked out.

One more thing to note - make sure the line doesn't cross itself in the hook-eye...you want the two 'runs' to be parallel.

 

I don't use the Palomar, but I do know how to tie it.

[Russ E]

4 minutes ago, Pkfish49 said:

Getting up early tomorrow and will try the Palomar.  Not 100% sure whether I properly tightened the knots, as braid is so thin and I have a hard time seeing larger diameter mono.  Spooler guy at Bass Pro Shops sold me something off his shelves, so I assume it was a good brand.

 

I have to disagree with the second sentence.  I've caught 2-3 pound Bass and tons of panfish with the clinch knot applied to mono.  I did have a few Pickerel chew through my line, but those losses had to be less than 1% of the time.   What I did notice is that with mono lighter than 10 LB, I had to do fewer wraparounds that I did with 10, otherwise the line would break, sometimes right away.  I do wonder If I could get a working braid clinch knot with fewer wraps, but am not going to bother for now.

I'm going to fish all day tomorrow and will reply to let everybody know how the Palomar worked out.

 

In any event, I'm really hoping the braid works out for me.  If I get twists eventually, I'll deal with it.  This afternoon, I fished with a newly spooled reel for an hour without any twists or knots.  That happens 0% of the time for me with newly spooled mono.

a 2 to 3 pound bass can be caught with nearly any knot on 10 pound line. start catching fish two or three times that size and you will be searching for better knots

[Team9nine]

As already mentioned, braid knot could be slipping. The other possibility is depending on the hook being used, the braid could be sliding around to where the hook eye gap meets the shank and either getting pulled through or getting cut. Won’t be an issue with high quality hooks, but you didn’t mention brand. Might be worth a look to see if you have any type of gap or sharp edge where the hook eye forms.

[Pkfish49]

7 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

As already mentioned, braid knot could be slipping. The other possibility is depending on the hook being used, the braid could be sliding around to where the hook eye gap meets the shank and either getting pulled through or getting cut. Won’t be an issue with high quality hooks, but you didn’t mention brand. Might be worth a look to see if you have any type of gap or sharp edge where the hook eye forms.

I have no idea whether this is considered a good brand, but I've been catching Bass with these hooks for the last month with Mono and haven't had any problems:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WW532QW/

[Team9nine]

Never used that brand, but look at the far left (first) pic from your link (copied below)...the hook eye in particular. Look closely at your hooks where the metal eye ends and butts up against the top of the hook shank. In the picture, it looks like a possible gap and/or sharp edge. Light braid like the 15# you are using is very thin, and since braid is slick, it will slide around on the hook eye. If it slides into that gap (assuming there is one), that would explain the problems you’re experiencing.

 

[dodgeguy]

Over 30 years using the Palomar with braid and it never broke. I crazy glue the tag end so it doesn't fray. Use Sufix 832.

[jimmyjoe]

9 minutes ago, Pkfish49 said:

I have no idea whether this is considered a good brand, but I've been catching Bass with these hooks for the last month with Mono and haven't had any problems:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WW532QW/

 

   Looking at the pics on Amazon, I'd advise you to check the eyes on your hooks very closely. Braid will slip through places mono can't. Glue the eyes if necessary.      jj

 

p.s. - @Team9nine beat me to it!

[Mike L]

Also, I don’t use that small of braid, but if I were you I’d tie the double Palomar. 
It’s just using 2 overhand knots instead of one. 
 

 

 

Mike 
 

[Pkfish49]

17 minutes ago, Team9nine said:

Never used that brand, but look at the far left (first) pic from your link (copied below)...the hook eye in particular. Look closely at your hooks where the metal eye ends and butts up against the top of the hook shank. In the picture, it looks like a possible gap and/or sharp edge. Light braid like the 15# you are using is very thin, and since braid is slick, it will slide around on the hook eye. If it slides into that gap (assuming there is one), that would explain the problems you’re experiencing.

 

 

16 minutes ago, jimmyjoe said:

 

   Looking at the pics on Amazon, I'd advise you to check the eyes on your hooks very closely. Braid will slip through places mono can't. Glue the eyes if necessary.      jj

 

p.s. - @Team9nine beat me to it!

 

iPhone pics of two of the hooks with 5.1x zoom.  Are these OK, or is it time to switch brands?

 

https://i.imgur.com/H5ZLOF3.jpg

 

https://i.imgur.com/Se3O7cx.jpg
 

[jimmyjoe]

   Last year I bought some Berkley Fusion worm hooks. One of the hooks had an open eye. Just one out of the whole pack. Yours may have been the same way. How can we be sure now?

   If I can (and if I'm willing to pay the price) I get "resin closed eye" hooks. VMC sells them, and I'm sure other brands do the same. IF that was the problem, that style of hook ensures that it won't happen again.

   OTOH, we need to wait and see the results of your experiment with a Palomar knot.

 

   Now you know why scientists say to change only one variable at a time in an experiment. It can drive you up the wall!   ???          jj

 

p.s. - those 2 particular hooks look okay.

[Lead Head]

I really like a uni knot for braid to lure, twice through the hook eye. I think people call it the fish-n-fool.

[new2BC4bass]

First knot I learned was the Clinch Knot, then the Improved Clinch Knot.  Never fished over 8# mono.  Don't recall any problems with either.  Then I learned the Uni Knot.  Been using it every since regardless of line type.  Never a problem.  If worried, I'll do as the above poster....use the Fish N Fool Knot.

[MN Fisher]

6 minutes ago, Lead Head said:

I really like a uni knot for braid to lure, twice through the hook eye. I think people call it the fish-n-fool.

 

Just now, new2BC4bass said:

If worried, I'll do as the above poster....use the Fish N Fool Knot.

If I was going to do the Uni doubled through the eye - I'd use the Doubled-Uni

 

Myself - I'll stick to the Multifile-Knoten - hasn't failed me yet.

 

 

[bulldog1935]

I'm surprised no one has made the suggestion of tying fluoro leader to braid for shock tippet.  

Braid will not stretch before it breaks, fluorocarbon is tough and invisible. 

Here, 22-lb braid tied to 15-lb Seaguar Blue for ML spinning. 

I add a loop on the end of my shock tippet.  You can loop on more sacrificial fluorocarbon for tying on lures, or loop on a paper clip or micro swivel wire leader for swapping lures - the micro swivel is also good to let spinning line untwist continuously on its own.  

I tie improved-Allbright knot to my shock tippet, but I've also been tying Allbright knots for 40 years.  

[RDB]

There are a lot of good knots but you need to make sure you are tying them correctly.  The best will be the ones you consistently tie correctly.

I use:

Braid / fluoro - palomar, San Diego jam, modified uni

Braid to leader - FG

Flipping hook - snell 

 

A clinch/improved cinch will work fine with fluoro or mono (not braid) but there are stronger knots that are just as easy to tie.  Below is a site with some good videos:

 

https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/fishing-knots/

 

[GetFishorDieTryin]

3 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

I'm surprised no one has made the suggestion of tying fluoro leader to braid for shock tippet.  

Braid will not stretch before it breaks, fluorocarbon is tough and invisible. 

Here, 22-lb braid tied to 15-lb Seaguar Blue for ML spinning. 

I add a loop on the end of my shock tippet.  You can loop on more sacrificial fluorocarbon for tying on lures, or loop on a paper clip or micro swivel wire leader for swapping lures - the micro swivel is also good to let spinning line untwist continuously on its own.  

I tie improved-Allbright knot to my shock tippet, but I've also been tying Allbright knots for 40 years.  

If he's having trouble tying direct he's going to have a harder time with a connection knot.  I thinks thats why no one has mentioned it.

[GetFishorDieTryin]

5 hours ago, Pkfish49 said:

 

What's going on?  Does the clinch knot not work at all with 15 LB braid, or is something else at play?  Should I use another knot?

Odds are your knot is slipping.  An improved clinch will work as long as the knot is tied correctly and seated.  PE lines have a much smaller diameter then mono, so you need to add more twists to the clinch knot when using it  The palomar is a strong knot, but it eats up alot of line per knot.  I would suggest a Uni knot over the palomar.  Once you learn to tie a good uni, you can easily tie a uni-uni connection knot if you think may want to try using a leader on the braid.