Cagey Hook Wrap

[kayaking_kev]

I was contacted through my YT channel and have since been in email discussions with a guy who came up with a new spiral wrap technique called the Cagey Hook Wrap. He seems to be well educated in the art of rod building and was featured in an article in Rod Maker magazine in December 2020, so it's still a pretty new technique. But, I was wondering if anyone has heard about it or has tried it? I'm interested because I would like to try it on my current build.

 

There is a little discussion and a few pics on rodbuilding.org about it and he has started his own forum because the editor won't let him copy and share the article due to copyright, because they want people to buy the magazine. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to share the link to his forum here, if so I will do so. 

[jimmyjoe]

    This is my opinion:

    Spiral wraps are not practical for me for one reason; they reduce line friction and blank torsion towards one side, but increase it towards the opposite side. I cast equally to my right as I do towards my left, especially with spinnerbaits. And I hook fish (and fight them) equally as often towards my right side as I do my left.

   If I'm not mistaken (and I might be!) the Cagey Hook Wrap makes this difference even more obvious.

 

   jj

[MickD]

Jimmyjoe, do you have this problem with spinning rod/reels?  The spirals just load the rod the same way spinners do?

 

The best way to find if you like the Cagey wrap is to try it.  Nothing really to risk.  

 

To me it seems an unnecessary complication.  The simple spiral works just great and I see the Cagey as a solution without a problem.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

The spiral wrap has no affect on casting. The idea is to eliminate the lever effect of the guides under load when landing fish. I haven’t seen the Cagey idea yet. 

[roadwarrior]

I have several spiral wrapped rods. I think they look cool, but have not

noticed any difference in performance vs convention guide configuration.

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

5 minutes ago, roadwarrior said:

I have several spiral wrapped rods. I think they look cool, but have not

noticed any difference in performance vs convention guide configuration.

In a bass fishing application the affect is less noticeable than heavy off shore tackle but I assure you it is real. This fine tuning much like guide sizing, not night  and day but measurable. 

[jimmyjoe]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

Jimmyjoe, do you have this problem with spinning rod/reels?  The spirals just load the rod the same way spinners do?

 

   Spirals load the upper blank the same way as spinning rods do. They do not load the blank in the same manner as spinning rods in the transition area - at least not the ones I have tried. Remember; I like moderate actions and more progressive loading than many people do. It seems to make some small difference.

 

  

1 hour ago, MickD said:

To me it seems an unnecessary complication.  The simple spiral works just great and I see the Cagey as a solution without a problem.

 

   To an extent, I agree. The cagey system simply optimizes line efficiency under load towards one side, while sacrificing it towards the opposite side. Not good for the way I fish.

 

   Left-handed cagey spiral loaded to the left:

 

   Left-handed cagey spiral loaded to the right:

 

   And these are fast actions, not moderate. I would expect the moderate action to be "worse".

 

    jj

[J Francho]

It all looks the same to me, so long as the line is off the blank.  Everything else they all talk about is academic to me.

[roadwarrior]

24 minutes ago, Delaware Valley Tackle said:

I assure you it is real. This fine tuning much like guide sizing, not night  and day but measurable. 

I am glad to find myself on the cutting edge...whether I knew it or not!

 

[kayaking_kev]

When I told him I have used simple spiral wraps, this is what he had to say.

 

"When you build a rod like you said above, your line flow under load can not possibly be straight. You have to see angular bends in the line flowing through those transition guides and some side loading as well."

 

"Adapt the guide system to work with your rod's unique bend. The line flow on my rods is perfectly ruler straight."

 

This is a picture he sent me.

 

 

I'm not arguing for or against it, as I really doubt I need any spiral wraps because I don't really have any huge fish around me. I just wanted to see some opinions from you guys on it and thought it might be fun to try, thanks!

Edited February 9, 2021 by J Francho
removed link

[kayaking_kev]

I will ask him if he will stop in and explain the technical differences, because I'm just a novice.

[MickD]

3 hours ago, kayaking_kev said:

When I told him I have used simple spiral wraps, this is what he had to say.

 

"When you build a rod like you said above, your line flow under load can not possibly be straight. You have to see angular bends in the line flowing through those transition guides and some side loading as well."

 

"Adapt the guide system to work with your rod's unique bend. The line flow on my rods is perfectly ruler straight."

 

This is a picture he sent me.

 

 

I'm not arguing for or against it, as I really doubt I need any spiral wraps because I don't really have any huge fish around me. I just wanted to see some opinions from you guys on it and thought it might be fun to try, thanks!

But is the difference significant?  I think not.  Keep in mind the biggest deviation from a straight line is right at the reel, and that doesn't seem to screw things up much.  I can lay out a simple spiral with the stress test I have to do anyway, then add one guide at 90 degrees half way between #1 and #2.  Piece of cake, works fine, line is off the blank, guides loaded perfectly either at 0 degrees or 90, no torquing of the guides.  I doubt if anyone can prove that either fishes better than the other.  Unless it might be Jimmyjoe.  He's making a case that sounds logical.

[kayaking_kev]

36 minutes ago, MickD said:

But is the difference significant?  I think not.  Keep in mind the biggest deviation from a straight line is right at the reel, and that doesn't seem to screw things up much.  I can lay out a simple spiral with the stress test I have to do anyway, then add one guide at 90 degrees half way between #1 and #2.  Piece of cake, works fine, line is off the blank, guides loaded perfectly either at 0 degrees or 90, no torquing of the guides.  I doubt if anyone can prove that either fishes better than the other.  Unless it might be Jimmyjoe.  He's making a case that sounds logical.

I really have no idea, I just learned about this method 2 days ago. He said he will consider signing up and visiting this thread later after his fishing trip.

 

But, he has read some of this thread earlier and this is what he has said to me.

 

Regarding the two pics that JimmyJoe posted and about Fast vs Moderate rods.

 

"The photos of the left and right side loaded rods are extreme cases used merely for the article as examples of certain things. I doubt if anyone would ever fish a rod like that loaded sideways 90 degrees. That image was for demonstrating why to wrap to one side or the other based on how a fisherman holds and uses a rod to show an extreme line flow situation for descriptive purposes in the article. Not that a fisherman would ever fish it like that fully loaded sideways to the way it was designed to carry a load."

 

"And he is right about the differences between fast to moderate rods. But since this process is adaptive to how each rod bends, the transition location on the rod changes with the action and bending curve of the rod under whatever desired load the builder chooses to use. So with faster rods the transition takes place further out, and with slower moderate rods the transition takes place closer to the reel."

 

Another paragraph included in that email.

 

"These rods work fabulously well with zero torqueing at all. It is simply not possible to torque or twist a rod with line flow like mine has. In order for the load to twist or direct torque forces to the blank the line must first side load a guide and use that guide as a lever. In the photo I sent you do you see any side loaded guides with line and load using any guide as if it were a lever? Guide loading is only in the top center or bottom center of the guide so the load on the blank is either a direct pull or a direct push. And this is key to building a cagey hook wrap correctly so it does not look like nor behave like any of the older methods of spiral wrapping to date."

 

 

[MickD]

One thing that spirals do is to reduce/eliminate the torquing in the hand.  This used to be a more significant problem than it now is with smaller, lower guides.  If one uses micros on the top of a casting rod, like I do,  there is very little torque.  I simply don't feel it.  With stand-up jigging salt water rods, it's an entirely different story (tall roller guides, very high loads).  Other rods are somewhere in between the two extremes.  For me there is no problem, so I'm not going to go through all the steps to set it up.  For others who feel the torque, go for it.  It could be the greatest thing since sliced bread for you.  I admire the devotion to excellence that it took to develop it.  It is clear that that job was not trivial.

[jimmyjoe]

1 hour ago, MickD said:

  I doubt if anyone can prove that either fishes better than the other.  Unless it might be Jimmyjoe.  He's making a case that sounds logical.

 

   Your point, @Mick D, about the friction of line through the levelwind is a telling one.

   I think what we need to do here is separate ideal theory from everyday practicality.

 

  

20 minutes ago, kayaking_kev said:

"The photos of the left and right side loaded rods are extreme cases used merely for the article as examples of certain things. I doubt if anyone would ever fish a rod like that loaded sideways 90 degrees.

 

   He doesn't know how I fight fish, does he?  ???

   Seriously - I would look to a spiral wrap as more advantageous for a rod that would be heavily loaded than one not heavily loaded. Under heavy drag settings, fighting a large fish that works back and forth, trying to get to cover, is easier with a spinning rod provided you have a spinning rod of the appropriate power. Spiral wrap could, possibly, give you this "ease" in a much-easier-to-handle package (casting) if it really kept the line off the blank.

   Just my outlook.

 

  

20 minutes ago, kayaking_kev said:

 ....this is key to building a cagey hook wrap correctly so it does not look like nor behave like any of the older methods of spiral wrapping to date."

 

   I believe that the critical point is made here; this system, like so many systems, needs to be done correctly. It's like tuning race engines; each needs to be tuned correctly.

   However ..... I'm not a racecar driver. Other people, however, are.        jj

[MickD]

25 minutes ago, jimmyjoe said:

if it really kept the line off the blank.

The fact is that line on the blank is not a problem.  You're right about this being a bigger issue with the heavily loaded rods.  Some argue that line under the blank is a problem.  If that is true, why?  If the rod doesn't break, if it doesn't affect the effectiveness of fishing, if it doesn't fail a guide, then is this even true?  There are a lot of myths in rod building.

[jimmyjoe]

1 minute ago, MickD said:

The fact is that line on the blank is not a problem.

 

   It is, perhaps, more of a perceived problem than a real problem, at least for some people. But I have a tendency to use line that is lighter rather than heavier, because I'm a shorecaster and want distance. And because I fish regularly in waters that have pike, musky and wipers, I can foresee the extra friction under heavy load might be critical.

   Let's put it another way; I don't want to break one of my lighter lines to find out where that little red line lies.  ?  

   As always ...... I could be wrong.             jj

  

[kayaking_kev]

I appreciate the discussions here about this, it helps me understand some things.

From my limited knowledge, I gather spiral wrapping to be a lot greater advantage for salt water guys that deal with bigger fish, rather than bass guys. I'm not exactly sure if the creator is more of a salt water or bass angler, but I believe he lives in Florida, so it could be that he designed it more for salt water purposes. 

 

I have only built 4 rods now, and have just started my 5th, and two of them are simple spirals based on advice I got from a fellow user from this forum. As, I said I really don't think I have any practical use for any type of spiral wrap, as the I mainly fish for bass and they aren't that big in my neck of the woods. My main purpose of using them I guess is for looks and because nobody else in my area has them and I like to try new things. But, this method did strike my curiosity just by the look of it and how straight the flow of the line is. I know there is likely no practical use for me personally to use this method, but I am still debating rather I should give it a try on my current build just for the challenge, because it may be the last one I build for awhile.

 

There is a lot more info with pics and drawings of the difference between this method and other methods on his forum that you guys will be able to comprehend better than I.

[KDW96]

Sounds like to me you really want to try it? Id say go for it. Then use it next to your others. let us know how it turned out. If you dont do it your curiosity will forever haunt you. Good luck

[clayton86]

The rod .ghoti. Donated to me a few years ago for being a Veteran was spiral wrapped and it peaked my interest. Now I spiral wrap all my rods I build for myself. I don’t know if I notice a difference or anything I just do it because it looks cool and different haha. 

[spoonplugger1]

I frankly don't see any big difference in the photos from any other system as far as load to the side, doesn't it look like the 40+ year old O'Quinn spiral wrap? Every style I have built over the years all do the same thing lock the rod in the vertical position under load, to the point that if you cradle the rod in your hands with the reel naturally flopped to the bottom and load the rod, the reel and rod on it's own will roll up into the upright position. How much load? My salmon rods with their heavier round reels will roll up on their own under 5 oz. of load. Visually, at least, it appears that no guide is loaded by the line until it is quite a way up the rod, if this is an advantage than why aren't all rods built that way? The first guide on an on top guide rod isn't set by a straight path now, no matter how low or small your reel is. So why is it there if not to take blank load? Lastly I want to ask just how much friction is generated by the line to guide contact, I bet you would have a hard time measuring it, while casting it would be even smaller, to the point of non-existence, if it was measurable you would think it would have been  by now wouldn't you?

[.ghoti.]

Read the article in RM magazine. My takeaway? So what?
 

Much ado about nothing. 

[MickD]

I personally don't feel any torquing anyway on my bass casting rods.  I see the spiral wrap thing as important on heavy duty rods like boat rods, but agree that for most rods it's much ado about nothing.  I've made a few, but am not hot for the look.  However, my granddaughter thinks hers is pretty cool.

 

I use the "simple spiral" and believe that the advantages of the more complex systems cannot be of any real significance.  As for the "line straight path" argument, that is sort of destroyed by the first guide, the reel's level wind guide.  If the bend in the line produced by that "guide" doesn't matter much, then how much can the alignment of the other guides matter?  

 

With the micro guides I'm using now they are so low that the torquing induced by them cannot amount to a lot.

 

But for rod-makers who live off their craft, whatever sells is important, and I'm all for it for them.

[kayaking_kev]

 I did my last my last build using this method and it for sure keeps the line straighter, but besides that, I can't tell a difference between it compared to my simple spiral wraps for bass fishing. I don't think I need either for bass fishing, but it was fun to try, and I think it would be a legit method for big fish guys. 

[spoonplugger1]

If straightness was so important wouldn't our guides be considerably smaller on our rods to control a straight flow better? What we use now is like shooting a .22 bullet out of a 12 gage shotgun. When I fish from a kayak, canoe, whatever where my movements are restricted in some way, having a stable, in any position, while fighting, netting, or landing a fish rod is an asset. Cabela's used to make a rod, they may still that they advertised as near unbreakable, if you looked at the picture of the loaded rod the guides toward the tip were at near 90 degrees, I call that torguing, all on top guides rods do it to some extent, the line always naturally wants to go the the bottom of the rod, only the guides keep it on top. Spiral wrapped rods have been around for 100 years, this is nothing new.