Scientific Bass Information

[Johnbt]

I've recently started reading fishing articles on polarized light, how baitfish and lures reflect polarized light and how predators see it and benefit from it. Talk about jumping down the rabbit hole. (I was physics major in undergrad school and tend to fall down rabbit holes containing too much detail.)

 

Meanwhile, I just read an article that mentioned both Brown's original 1937 research and Dr. Hill's (the developer of the Color-C-Lector.}
 

www.bassmaster.com/gene-gilliland/do-bass-anglers-need-every-color-rainbow

 

"Brown found and Hill confirmed that bass can see a range of at least 28 colors from reds to violets. In addition to the traditional color spectrum, Hill studied fluorescent colors and found bass equally discriminatory. Bass tended to show a preference towards fluorescent blue, green, chartreuse and orange. Under varying light intensity and water clarity, bass consistently responded more strongly to fluorescent colors than non-fluorescent colors."

[RyanCastin]

10 hours ago, Jonas Staggs said:

I'm not a scientist like you guys. But I'm into science and it always came naturally to me. Coulda shoulda woulda....anyways I enjoy reading and hearing the view points of science guys, specifically ones that also are fishermen cause it's a double whammy effect of knowledge. 

 

Anyways, I would really like to see some scientific research into bass in man made, hoa type lakes. Nearly every thing available to read is on natural waters, or man made reservoirs etc. Which are similar to natural waters. What about water that is a weird dyed green/blue color? Anyone fish cerritos lake? The water glows with turbulence caused by the lure!

I will look into it for you! Likely you should narrow down your search online by classifying them as something like neighborhood ponds since they are typically not very large bodies of water. I’ll see what I can find today!

[Johnbt]

www.texassaltwaterfishingmagazine.com/fishing/education/fishy-facts/color-penetration-fish-sight

 

Although this is a saltwater article, it's still interesting in terms of the variables they've looked at concerning light and fish vision. I'll mention two here. The first involves the creation of polarized light when the sunlight reflects off the water's surface.

 

"Another possibility is that having polarizing vision can let fish see objects that are farther away, perhaps three times the distance. If this speculation is correct, it may explain why some fish seem to feed more aggressively under very low-light conditions, such as dawn or dusk."

 

"Fun Fact: in calm weather, a diver can look upward to see the entire hemisphere of the sky compressed into a circle – a phenomenon called Snell’s window, caused by the bending of light as it enters water."

"Due to Snell’s window, a fish can see through an area of the surface which has a diameter of about twice that of its depth. So a fish at 5 feet of depth will be able to see through a circular window of about 10 feet in diameter above her. Additionally, the fish can see objects above the water far to the side of the window, due to refraction. Outside of the window, the fish will see a mirror of the bottom structure. Potentially useful information when stalking fish in clear water."

 

 

[Jonas Staggs]

33 minutes ago, RyanCastin said:

I will look into it for you! Likely you should narrow down your search online by classifying them as something like neighborhood ponds since they are typically not very large bodies of water. I’ll see what I can find today!

 

 

Thank you!

Great idea btw, down here in my area, what we consider lakes really are ponds, or ponds to other people from other states. I suppose what I figure is a pond is probably a ditch to them lol. 

 

A interesting thing I recently found out about. Our hoa lake, doesn't have much bluegill, I haven't seen any baitfish either. We have tons of carp though. Massive schools of them after they have babies in the 4" size. I figured the bass had to be feeding on them like they would schooling shad. Caught a bass recently that barfed up a baby carp.

 

 

[RyanCastin]

3 hours ago, Jonas Staggs said:

 

 

Thank you!

Great idea btw, down here in my area, what we consider lakes really are ponds, or ponds to other people from other states. I suppose what I figure is a pond is probably a ditch to them lol. 

 

A interesting thing I recently found out about. Our hoa lake, doesn't have much bluegill, I haven't seen any baitfish either. We have tons of carp though. Massive schools of them after they have babies in the 4" size. I figured the bass had to be feeding on them like they would schooling shad. Caught a bass recently that barfed up a baby carp.

 

 

Lol yeah there are no clear cut definitions of what makes a lake or a pond so it can get a little confusing. Most scientists refer to lakes as very large, deep bodies of water while ponds are considered small, shallow bodies of water which are shallow enough that light can reach the bottom. This is also obviously not a clear cut definition as there are some massive lakes that are only 12-15ft deep. But in general, this is the rule of thumb to use when determining a pond or a lake. 
 

And I also know a pond like that with the only fish in it being bass. I determined they must feed on other hatchling size bass, craws, and amphibians that live near the water. Are there crawfish in the pond you are mentioning? If so, it is most likely that the bass are feeding on craws and if big enough, then feeding on the baby carp.

[Tennessee Boy]

This chart is from an article published in Current Zoology in 2019 titled “Seeing red: color vision in the largemouth bass”. Bass were trained to identify certain colors.  This chart shows how good they were at identifying the color they were trained to identify.  As you can see from the chart, bass trained to identify white often choose yellow,  blue,  and even black as white.    Bottom line,  the way bass see and process color is completely different than the way we do.

 

[RyanCastin]

3 hours ago, Tennessee Boy said:

This chart is from an article published in Current Zoology in 2019 titled “Seeing red: color vision in the largemouth bass”. Bass were trained to identify certain colors.  This chart shows how good they were at identifying the color they were trained to identify.  As you can see from the chart, bass trained to identify white often choose yellow,  blue,  and even black as white.    Bottom line,  the way bass see and process color is completely different than the way we do.

 

Do you have a link to this study? I would like to read further into it. Sounds like a bit of classical conditioning (Pavlovian conditioning - Pavlov's dogs). If it is classical conditioning, this does not prove much other than that they can distinguish differences in light intensity to either receive a reward or prevent a punishment (like being shocked). It is interesting in the white/yellow graphs though, as we discussed earlier that bass perceive whites and yellows the same due to their 2 cone vision in comparison to our 3 cone vision. Please leave a link I would like to read about the study!

[Tennessee Boy]

8 hours ago, RyanCastin said:

Do you have a link to this study? 

https://academic.oup.com/cz/article/65/1/43/4924236
 

 

[Team9nine]

We discussed the study in length about 3 years ago when it first came out. You can find that thread here: 

 

 

[MIbassyaker]

18 hours ago, RyanCastin said:

Do you have a link to this study? I would like to read further into it. Sounds like a bit of classical conditioning (Pavlovian conditioning - Pavlov's dogs). If it is classical conditioning, this does not prove much other than that they can distinguish differences in light intensity to either receive a reward or prevent a punishment (like being shocked). It is interesting in the white/yellow graphs though, as we discussed earlier that bass perceive whites and yellows the same due to their 2 cone vision in comparison to our 3 cone vision. Please leave a link I would like to read about the study!

 

Same study I mentioned in my post -- technically, reward-based operant (instrumental) conditioning: Bass should strike colors they have been trained to, and not colors they haven't been trained to, unless they have trouble telling them apart (or, more broadly, trouble telling that the color makes it NOT the same as what they were trained to).  Notice they do this easily with red and green, but they show some confusion between blue/black, and between yellow/white. In fact, they show some slight confusion among all four of those, which is consistent with all four being registered mostly as variations in black/white intensity. 

 

Personally, I think most bass anglers make too much of color as a visual cue, and too little of size, profile, and pattern of movement. I suspect size, profile and movement carry more information, under more conditions, about whether something does vs. does not make a good meal than does color.  Which features bass attach meaning to may also vary --possibly substantially-- from place to place and time to time based on reward history and recent conditions.

[RyanCastin]

1 hour ago, MIbassyaker said:

 

Same study I mentioned in my post -- technically, reward-based operant (instrumental) conditioning: Bass should strike colors they have been trained to, and not colors they haven't been trained to, unless they have trouble telling them apart (or, more broadly, trouble telling that the color makes it NOT the same as what they were trained to).  Notice they do this easily with red and green, but they show some confusion between blue/black, and between yellow/white. In fact, they show some slight confusion among all four of those, which is consistent with all four being registered mostly as variations in black/white intensity. 

 

Personally, I think most bass anglers make too much of color as a visual cue, and too little of size, profile, and pattern of movement. I suspect size, profile and movement carry more information, under more conditions, about whether something does vs. does not make a good meal than does color.  Which features bass attach meaning to may also vary --possibly substantially-- from place to place and time to time based on reward history and recent conditions.

I agree with that! It is interesting that they do not distinguish very well between yellow/white and black/blue. As discussed earlier in the thread they can not distinguish between yellows and whites due to only having two cones. Also interesting with the black and blue as the depth of the water likely makes blue be perceived as black. I also agree that presentation, size, and profile are likely more important than color. However in different water conditions/productivity’s I’m sure color may have an effect based on if they can spot it easily or not. 
 

I feel like we have discussed most of the color/lake productivity topic so let’s move on to something else.

 

We can start discussing feeding patterns, behavioral budgets of large vs. small bass, and how they respond to being caught. Or if there are any other questions anyone has we can start addressing those. I will start us off by saying that the largest bass are typically a lot lazier and do not often waste the energy to chase down a lure. It is not worth it in terms of energetic efficiency to waste energy chasing down bait as they would end up using more energy than gained. I have much more information to add to this tomorrow. I am currently on a mini-vacation so will add some more scientific info tomorrow afternoon.

[Jonas Staggs]

On 2/4/2021 at 11:40 AM, RyanCastin said:

Lol yeah there are no clear cut definitions of what makes a lake or a pond so it can get a little confusing. Most scientists refer to lakes as very large, deep bodies of water while ponds are considered small, shallow bodies of water which are shallow enough that light can reach the bottom. This is also obviously not a clear cut definition as there are some massive lakes that are only 12-15ft deep. But in general, this is the rule of thumb to use when determining a pond or a lake. 
 

And I also know a pond like that with the only fish in it being bass. I determined they must feed on other hatchling size bass, craws, and amphibians that live near the water. Are there crawfish in the pond you are mentioning? If so, it is most likely that the bass are feeding on craws and if big enough, then feeding on the baby carp.

 

No craws but the place gets gnats really bad in the warmer months. Swarms of them and they are just swarms of them that fall in the water, the top of the water is covered in them. So much so that the ducks eat them, scooping up big mouthful of water and gnats. I have seen the bass feeding on them too. Blew my mind to see a big bass wasting time with such a small insect. Like a whale eating plankton. Can't remember if I mentioned this already lol.

[RyanCastin]

8 hours ago, Jonas Staggs said:

 

No craws but the place gets gnats really bad in the warmer months. Swarms of them and they are just swarms of them that fall in the water, the top of the water is covered in them. So much so that the ducks eat them, scooping up big mouthful of water and gnats. I have seen the bass feeding on them too. Blew my mind to see a big bass wasting time with such a small insect. Like a whale eating plankton. Can't remember if I mentioned this already lol.

That is interesting but I guess if they don’t have to waste a lot of energy to eat them it still pays off.

[Luke Barnes]

Did some digging on you tube on this subject and found a few good videos. This one really stood out to me so i thought i would share. Brian Latimer, while being a FLW Pro, is still like us and wondered the same thing. 

 

 

[Crow Horse]

I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned earlier, but the book "What Fish See - Understanding optics and color shifts for designing lures and flies" by Coli J. Kageyama, O.D, F.C.O.V.D. might prove to be helpful.......