Scientific Bass Information

[RyanCastin]

1 minute ago, Luke Barnes said:

Ok science guy, have fun theorizing. I'll just go fishing and catch bass regardless of mercury being in retrograde and the oligotrophic nature of the body of water I am on. 

I go fishing and have fun as well. Us science guys that regulate and manage your fisheries just simply enjoy what we do and enjoy learning more about them. Without science your fisheries would all be completely devastated from overfishing and poor management. There is a lot of science that goes into creating healthy fisheries. If you don't care then you shouldn't be in the sport. 

6 minutes ago, Luke Barnes said:

Ok science guy, have fun theorizing. I'll just go fishing and catch bass regardless of mercury being in retrograde and the oligotrophic nature of the body of water I am on. 

Also what you mentioned is astrology not science... LOL

[Luke Barnes]

8 minutes ago, RyanCastin said:

I go fishing and have fun as well. Us science guys that regulate and manage your fisheries just simply enjoy what we do and enjoy learning more about them. Without science your fisheries would all be completely devastated from overfishing and poor management. There is a lot of science that goes into creating healthy fisheries. If you don't care then you shouldn't be in the sport. 

Also what you mentioned is astrology not science... LOL

Yeah threw that part in to be cheeky! 

[BrianMDTX]

So...as many humans are color blind, I wonder if X number of bass are also color blind? And if some areas (or water types) tend to have more or less color blind bass? 

 

I do do believe the water color makes a difference. The ponds I fish are very green in summer due to algae. So much so it stains my line green. I was killing bass on green pumpkin Senkos in summer through early fall. Once the algae bloom died off and the water clarity improved the bite was off on those colors while watermelon and red/copper colors improved. 

[J Francho]

4 minutes ago, BrianMDTX said:

So...as many humans are color blind, I wonder if X number of bass are also color blind?

Being color blind to blue, I wonder about this as well.  I can see blue, but I can't really discern when it has some yellow in it.  They all look the same to me: blue.

[Luke Barnes]

@RyanCastin I did think of something that im hoping you can help shed light on. I fish a few ponds that use blue dye to cut down the UV rays thus helping to keep the algae at bay. Besides the water being literally blue, with it cutting down UV rays would that have an affect on what the colors look like from shallow to deep? 

 

I try to throw dark baits to be darker than the blue to contrast but if it looks way different because of the UV factor maybe I should throw something else?

[Delaware Valley Tackle]

On 1/28/2021 at 8:29 PM, RyanCastin said:

Also, with more depth the bright green likely appears as darker shades of green at greater depths. Eventually it would appear as black at certain depths as only 25% of light penetrates into depths of 10m.

Congrats to you too! And yeah environmental classes can be tough, luckily i've had some great professors at Regis University. Also for the major I've had to take lots of biology and ecology courses.

Chartreuse and other neon colors appear white to bass. 

[Basseditor]

Guess I'll have to go find my old color selector. It's in a box some where.

[RyanCastin]

6 hours ago, Luke Barnes said:

@RyanCastin I did think of something that im hoping you can help shed light on. I fish a few ponds that use blue dye to cut down the UV rays thus helping to keep the algae at bay. Besides the water being literally blue, with it cutting down UV rays would that have an affect on what the colors look like from shallow to deep? 

 

I try to throw dark baits to be darker than the blue to contrast but if it looks way different because of the UV factor maybe I should throw something else?

Yes it would have an effect on color, although I am not an expert with this topic. I am not very familiar with the idea of dyed waters so this is my best hypothesis. As mentioned earlier, reds would appear darker in shallow water and black in deeper water as the red light does not penetrate deep into the water and therefore the color red does not show up deep in the water. In this case of water dyed blue, reds and greens would appear darker and appear as black with more depth due to the blue dye absorbing red and green spectrums of light. Therefore, because the blue dye is absorbing these spectrums of light, these reds and greens would not appear as much the deeper you get into the water. What depth are you usually fishing and what colors are you using? 

[fissure_man]

The science of light and vision is interesting and makes for a good discussion, but I think we are sometimes stretching to turn that knowledge into ‘rules’ for lure color selection. Knowing whether or not a bass can visually distinguish the color of our lure is one thing, but knowing which visual cues will entice a bite is another (i.e. is maximum visibility the goal, when/why?). Most of the time, I suspect that when we swim our lure past a bass and it doesn’t bite, it’s not because it didn’t know the lure was there.

[bulldog1935]

few lure color choices have to do with color vision - rather, they're about the color of the water and the available light, and how the light bandwidth penetrates the water to make the lure visible.  

The second factor is making the bait appear natural, which can affect how the fish reacts when it's close to the lure - reject or eat.  

 

Of course there's no reason to make rules, because there will be an exception to every one, but having probability on your side is always a bonus. 

[Luke Barnes]

13 hours ago, RyanCastin said:

Yes it would have an effect on color, although I am not an expert with this topic. I am not very familiar with the idea of dyed waters so this is my best hypothesis. As mentioned earlier, reds would appear darker in shallow water and black in deeper water as the red light does not penetrate deep into the water and therefore the color red does not show up deep in the water. In this case of water dyed blue, reds and greens would appear darker and appear as black with more depth due to the blue dye absorbing red and green spectrums of light. Therefore, because the blue dye is absorbing these spectrums of light, these reds and greens would not appear as much the deeper you get into the water. What depth are you usually fishing and what colors are you using? 

Its a small pond so I'm assuming it's maybe 6 feet deep in the middle. I usually use dark like junebug or black and blue. Sometimes I try green pumpkin. I figured the blue in black and blue either becomes invisible or washes out to dark. From what ive read the dye blocks thw blue UV rays which cuts down on the algae bloom in the summer. But I dont know how that would make other colors look. 

[Team9nine]

53 minutes ago, Luke Barnes said:

Its a small pond so I'm assuming it's maybe 6 feet deep in the middle. I usually use dark like junebug or black and blue. Sometimes I try green pumpkin. I figured the blue in black and blue either becomes invisible or washes out to dark. From what ive read the dye blocks thw blue UV rays which cuts down on the algae bloom in the summer. But I dont know how that would make other colors look. 

 

I fish a pond like that regularly. Almost never see it without that blue color; sometimes nearly turquoise from how much they treat it. Junebug has been my best producing color in that pond, though others work, too. Bass tend to see black and blue as nearly the same color, so not certain there's anything there to really worry about in regards to what they actually see. No study I've seen has corroborated UV vision in adult bass, either.  

[fissure_man]

On 1/30/2021 at 10:03 AM, RyanCastin said:

The most light is reflected from the surface of the water at mid-day and the most light penetrates the water at lower angles! Therefore, with red spectrums of light not entering very deep into the water column, they likely reach a bit further as the sun is at a lower angle!

 

On 1/31/2021 at 2:12 PM, RyanCastin said:

Agreed, red light simply just penetrates further into the water at low light angles. It does not penetrate very deep into the water mid-day.

 

On 2/1/2021 at 6:55 PM, RyanCastin said:

In example, red wavelengths do not penetrate deep into the water at mid-day but do penetrate further at low-light angles. This means that your red lure does not appear red (it appears black) in deeper water if the sun is at mid-day or high light hours.

 

I don't understand this, can you elaborate?

 

[Luke Barnes]

2 hours ago, Team9nine said:

 

I fish a pond like that regularly. Almost never see it without that blue color; sometimes nearly turquoise from how much they treat it. Junebug has been my best producing color in that pond, though others work, too. Bass tend to see black and blue as nearly the same color, so not certain there's anything there to really worry about in regards to what they actually see. No study I've seen has corroborated UV vision in adult bass, either.  

Ive had the best luck with junebug in that pond. I kind of figured it all meshed together into a dark color. I used a finesse TRD in Meatdog, which is just black one side blue other side, and that did good too. Im trying to remember what other colors have worked but it's a tiny urban pond that sees pressure so most of the time its finesse that catches them. Oohh I tore it up on a windy overcast day with a white buzz bait with black paddle tail trailer once. That was fun.

[Johnbt]

Here's the Color-C-Lector manual from 2004. I haven't seen one since the '80s

 

www.ispikeit.com/Images/Color-C-Lector-1.pdf

 

Is this actually still for sale? I never knew.    www.ispikeit.com/product/6/color-c-lector

[Basseditor]

43 minutes ago, Johnbt said:

Here's the Color-C-Lector manual from 2004. I haven't seen one since the '80s

 

www.ispikeit.com/Images/Color-C-Lector-1.pdf

 

Is this actually still for sale? I never knew.    www.ispikeit.com/product/6/color-c-lector

I have an old analog one. Is the one in this PDF digital?

[Johnbt]

Looks like it. For $129 it better clean the fish and cook them, too.  

 

[Team9nine]

1 hour ago, Johnbt said:

Looks like it. For $129 it better clean the fish and cook them, too.  

 

 

You can buy the original dial meters off eBay all day long for $15-$20. A much more inexpensive way to play if you wanted to. 

[RyanCastin]

12 hours ago, fissure_man said:

The science of light and vision is interesting and makes for a good discussion, but I think we are sometimes stretching to turn that knowledge into ‘rules’ for lure color selection. Knowing whether or not a bass can visually distinguish the color of our lure is one thing, but knowing which visual cues will entice a bite is another (i.e. is maximum visibility the goal, when/why?). Most of the time, I suspect that when we swim our lure past a bass and it doesn’t bite, it’s not because it didn’t know the lure was there.

I totally agree and am not claiming that. I just believe that understanding how bass perceive color can help us determine if we are wasting our money on fancy colored lures. I am simply just talking about how we perceive color compared to how bass see color. While we think a color may match the color of baitfish, it may be the complete opposite once it is in the water depending on the water being eutrophic or oligotrophic.

9 hours ago, fissure_man said:

 

 

 

I don't understand this, can you elaborate?

 

Yes I can, what do you not understand? Basically each color that we see corresponds to a light wavelength. Therefore, the reflection of light off an object IS color that we see. Different colors are seen by us as that color because they absorb some spectrums of light while reflecting another. Red does not penetrate deep into the water because it has the longest wavelength and therefore has the lowest amount of energy. As light wavelengths are the longest at red and the shortest at blue, red wavelengths do not penetrate deep into the water due to their lower amount of energy. Blue wavelengths penetrate deepest into the water because of their higher amount of energy. Let me know if you need any more explanation!

[RyanCastin]

11 hours ago, Luke Barnes said:

Its a small pond so I'm assuming it's maybe 6 feet deep in the middle. I usually use dark like junebug or black and blue. Sometimes I try green pumpkin. I figured the blue in black and blue either becomes invisible or washes out to dark. From what ive read the dye blocks thw blue UV rays which cuts down on the algae bloom in the summer. But I dont know how that would make other colors look. 

In a shallow pond at 6 feet with dark colors, it should not have much effect on color other than the blue dye interfering with the actual color you choose. Since the pond isn't very deep, the blue dye likely just makes each color a bit darker like you stated. If the pond was deep, these dark colors would likely just be perceived as black with greater depth. Because you stated the blue dye is to cut down on blue light wavelengths, if you were using yellow or orange lures they would not appear as yellow or orange because these colors absorb blue wavelengths and reflect as their colors: yellow and orange. With blue wavelengths not being able to penetrate the water, these colors would not reflect their normal color. This is due to these colors being opposite ends of the spectrum. Colors that are opposite from each other on the spectrum absorb their opposite wavelength and reflect their own color.

1 minute ago, RyanCastin said:

In a shallow pond at 6 feet with dark colors, it should not have much effect on color other than the blue dye interfering with the actual color you choose. Since the pond isn't very deep, the blue dye likely just makes each color a bit darker like you stated. If the pond was deep, these dark colors would likely just be perceived as black with greater depth. Because you stated the blue dye is to cut down on blue light wavelengths, if you were using yellow or orange lures they would not appear as yellow or orange because these colors absorb blue wavelengths and reflect as their colors: yellow and orange. With blue wavelengths not being able to penetrate the water, these colors would not reflect their normal color. This is due to these colors being opposite ends of the spectrum. Colors that are opposite from each other on the spectrum absorb their opposite wavelength and reflect their own color.

All of this information is regarding how us humans see color however, and we can only speculate on how the fish see it as they have different sight adaptations than us.

[Luke Barnes]

@RyanCastin I could google the color wheel but I'll ask. What's the opposite of blue? If im understanding correctly since the water has blue UV blockers whatever is opposite on the color spectrum will stand out more? 

[WRB]

44Anyone interested in the history of LMB needs to recognize that 2 species exist; Northern and Florida strains. 

California offers a good study ground because neither species is native, both are very different in behavior habits.

Tom 

[Jonas Staggs]

I'm not a scientist like you guys. But I'm into science and it always came naturally to me. Coulda shoulda woulda....anyways I enjoy reading and hearing the view points of science guys, specifically ones that also are fishermen cause it's a double whammy effect of knowledge. 

 

Anyways, I would really like to see some scientific research into bass in man made, hoa type lakes. Nearly every thing available to read is on natural waters, or man made reservoirs etc. Which are similar to natural waters. What about water that is a weird dyed green/blue color? Anyone fish cerritos lake? The water glows with turbulence caused by the lure!

[fissure_man]

9 hours ago, RyanCastin said:

I totally agree and am not claiming that. I just believe that understanding how bass perceive color can help us determine if we are wasting our money on fancy colored lures. I am simply just talking about how we perceive color compared to how bass see color. While we think a color may match the color of baitfish, it may be the complete opposite once it is in the water depending on the water being eutrophic or oligotrophic.

 

I'm not sure ‘complete opposite’ is quite right, as the baitfish themselves will similarly change appearance under different lighting conditions. But yeah, as a foundation toward understanding which visual aspects of our presentations might affect our success, certainly studying the relevant environmental factors and the physiology of bass vision is a step in the right direction (and I’ve worn out keyboards in the past defending that angle, lol). Differences between lures or prey that might appear distinct when viewed by human eyes above water, might be subtle or undetectable to a bass underwater (and vice-versa) – that is great food for thought.

 

9 hours ago, RyanCastin said:

 Let me know if you need any more explanation!

 

Thanks.  I'm reasonably familiar with these concepts, transmission/absorption, reflection/refraction, etc. What I am wondering about is the reasoning behind expecting that red light will penetrate deeper underwater at low light angles? Seems counterintuitive.

[RyanCastin]

10 hours ago, Luke Barnes said:

@RyanCastin I could google the color wheel but I'll ask. What's the opposite of blue? If im understanding correctly since the water has blue UV blockers whatever is opposite on the color spectrum will stand out more? 

The opposite of blue is yellow. However to appear as yellow, the object that is yellow must absorb blue light to reflect yellow. If blue light can not penetrate the water, I am unsure of how this would effect yellow. We do know that yellows are seen nearly the same as white by bass. So likely this yellow would just appear as an off shade of white to them 

2 hours ago, fissure_man said:

 

I'm not sure ‘complete opposite’ is quite right, as the baitfish themselves will similarly change appearance under different lighting conditions. But yeah, as a foundation toward understanding which visual aspects of our presentations might affect our success, certainly studying the relevant environmental factors and the physiology of bass vision is a step in the right direction (and I’ve worn out keyboards in the past defending that angle, lol). Differences between lures or prey that might appear distinct when viewed by human eyes above water, might be subtle or undetectable to a bass underwater (and vice-versa) – that is great food for thought.

 

 

 

Thanks.  I'm reasonably familiar with these concepts, transmission/absorption, reflection/refraction, etc. What I am wondering about is the reasoning behind expecting that red light will penetrate deeper underwater at low light angles? Seems counterintuitive.

I believe I learned a bit about this in the book I referenced a while back in the thread. I will see if I can pull out a quote after work today.