Diff in line weight to change lure action or running depth

[mheichelbech]

When using crankbaits and/or rattletraps, what spread in line rating will result in a noticeable change in lure action or running depth?  
For example, to get better action of a trap or crankbait, does changing from 12lb test to 10 lb test make much of a difference, or 12 to 8, 10 to 8?   
 

Along the same vein, how much changed is needed to have your lure run a foot deeper or shallower?

[WRB]

Diameter and density of the line makes a difference.

Tom

[jimmyjoe]

   1) It's not test, it's diameter. 8Lb. test Stren Original is .011", but so is 12 lb. test InvizX.

   2) It's difficult to actually know what depth you're running. Change the retrieve speed a little, such as cranking from a half-full spool vs. when the spool is almost full at the end, and you make a heck of a lot of difference. The angle of your retrieve makes a difference. So many things could totally swamp the difference between one line and another.

   3) If you want maximum depth, use the thinnest braid you think will do the job.

   4) If you want minimum depth, run your monofilament line through Crisco, lard or petroleum jelly, and coat it well. This adds resistance going through water.

   Just don't eat it when you get hungry.   ???    jj

[mheichelbech]

3 minutes ago, WRB said:

Diameter and density of the line makes a difference.

Tom

I was just using line test as a proxy.  I know that many lines with the same pound test will have different diameters, etc.  I’m just wanting to know does how much spread will make a difference in catching fish?  For example, if me and a buddy are throwing rattletraps, and he using 8 lb test and I am using 12 lb test, will his rattletrap run better enough to catch more than I do?  What I was using 10 and he was using 8?

Also, I am well aware there are other variables  that go into choosing line test but I’d prefer to ignore those.

7 minutes ago, mheichelbech said:

I was just using line test as a proxy.  I know that many lines with the same pound test will have different diameters, etc.  I’m just wanting to know does how much spread will make a difference in catching fish?  For example, if me and a buddy are throwing rattletraps, and he using 8 lb test and I am using 12 lb test, will his rattletrap run better enough to catch more than I do?  What I was using 10 and he was using 8?

Also, I am well aware there are other variables  that go into choosing line test but I’d prefer to ignore those.

Or I guess you say “x” difference in diameter will make a difference.

[WRB]

If I could direct you to a line diameter verse depth vs action study I would. I know of a few line test test vs running depth of deep diving crank baits.

My experience is .010-.012D / 8 - 12 lb test mono vs FC the depth running when trolling diving lure over known sonar depth is within a 1 foot. But 1 foot is 10% at 10 feet for what it’s worth. I couldn’t determine any difference between FC and mono, could be a few inches.

I always use a light weight snap in lieu of direct line tie. A light weight snap eliminated line stiffness so the diving lure action isn’t affected.

Tom

[Team9nine]

This has been researched quite a bit. Very hard to make absolute calls, but in general, the shallower the bait normally runs, the less overall difference there is - which kind of makes sense. So a bait that usually runs 3'-8' might not change, or change just half a foot in depth every time you bump up or down a size in rating. Deeper divers may change anywhere from 1/2 a foot to 1.5 feet for every jump up or down. There are also a few neat YT videos where guys have started testing this stuff out now that Livescope has become more widespread. Look 'em up when you get a chance. 

[jimmyjoe]

   I see what you mean now.

   All I can tell you is this:  There's a pond I fish that has a sunken tree trunk about 25 yards out, about 16 feet deep. If you (or I) drop a lure right on it, the fish will be spooked. So I cast over it as far as I can. My intention? I want to bring a lure right over it, maybe even thunk it, but not snag on it.

   Last year I went out with (among others) 3 rigs; one had 8 lb. Yo-Zuri, one had 6 lb. Stren, and the last had 4 lb Trilene XL.

   I was throwing a #3 Aglia, which weighs 1/4 oz. I like it for that particular target because the blade collapses when the lure grazes an object, letting me know exactly where the lure is running.

   With 4 lb. XL, I snagged. (Grrrrrr.....)

   With 6 lb. Stren, I just nicked the top of the trunk. Perfect ..... for a while. Eventually, though, I snagged up again. (more Grrrrrr.....)

   With the 8 lb.Yo-Zuri, I could not get the spinner to hit the tree unless I practically stalled it out. And stalling an Aglia is not easy.

   How much difference was I seeing? I don't know with any real accuracy, but I would guess a foot to 16 inches between lines at 25 yards.

   I know this is not a really scientific analysis, but I hope it gives you some ideas.       jj

  

[mheichelbech]

46 minutes ago, jimmyjoe said:

   I see what you mean now.

   All I can tell you is this:  There's a pond I fish that has a sunken tree trunk about 25 yards out, about 16 feet deep. If you (or I) drop a lure right on it, the fish will be spooked. So I cast over it as far as I can. My intention? I want to bring a lure right over it, maybe even thunk it, but not snag on it.

   Last year I went out with (among others) 3 rigs; one had 8 lb. Yo-Zuri, one had 6 lb. Stren, and the last had 4 lb Trilene XL.

   I was throwing a #3 Aglia, which weighs 1/4 oz. I like it for that particular target because the blade collapses when the lure grazes an object, letting me know exactly where the lure is running.

   With 4 lb. XL, I snagged. (Grrrrrr.....)

   With 6 lb. Stren, I just nicked the top of the trunk. Perfect ..... for a while. Eventually, though, I snagged up again. (more Grrrrrr.....)

   With the 8 lb.Yo-Zuri, I could not get the spinner to hit the tree unless I practically stalled it out. And stalling an Aglia is not easy.

   How much difference was I seeing? I don't know with any real accuracy, but I would guess a foot to 16 inches between lines at 25 yards.

   I know this is not a really scientific analysis, but I hope it gives you some ideas.       jj

  

That is helpful.  

Just now, mheichelbech said:

That is helpful.  

One reason I brought this up is I was looking at rattletraps and it brought back a memory of a friend and I throwing rattletraps.  We had totally different setups...but I thought the main difference was he was using 8 pound test and I had 12 pound test.  I noticed he caught more fish that I did, bass, white bass, stripers, and so on.  I always thought the difference in line test accounted for the line test as we had in the exact same baits.  Maybe it was that, maybe he was doing something slightly different, heck his lure could have been slightly different, but after that, I started to always use the lightest line o thought I could use without having problems.

[jimmyjoe]

   One other thing that smaller diameter lines does is allow a given lure to exhibit more side-to-side  action. This is especially true if you tie on with one of the loop knots. It could have explained the difference in results that he was getting; it wasn't depth, it was action. So overall, your decision may have been made for the wrong reason, but it was the right decision to make.

   Isn't it funny how things work out?         jj

[scaleface]

I found 12 lb test works well for all my baitcasting crankbaits . At one time the some of the pros were claiming that 8 and 10 lb test were necessary to get a Rebel Deep Wee R to perform to its maximum potential  .Anything over that killed it . 12 lb test has caught boat loads on it for me .  

[mheichelbech]

12 hours ago, jimmyjoe said:

   One other thing that smaller diameter lines does is allow a given lure to exhibit more side-to-side  action. This is especially true if you tie on with one of the loop knots. It could have explained the difference in results that he was getting; it wasn't depth, it was action. So overall, your decision may have been made for the wrong reason, but it was the right decision to make.

   Isn't it funny how things work out?         jj

That’s exactly what I was thinking...a little bit better action.  He had 8lb p line and I had 12lb big game.  I haven’t looked at the diameter of those yet.  Also I think some brands, probably Stren and Trilene are the worst, purposely understate the pound test for marketing purposes.

So should I be looking at diameter of line instead of pound test?  And again, how diameter or pound test makes a difference for action?  Just checked P Line and 8 lb is .012, 10lb is .014 and 12 lb is .0148.  Trilene Big Game is 10lb = .012 and 12lb = .014.  Knowing this is it safe to assume that there would be no action difference between 8lb PLine and 10lb Big Game?

This stuff is an analytical persons dream or nightmare! Thanks for the replies!

[garroyo130]

Don't overthink it ... even if you determine that 8lb PLine gives the lure more side to side wobble and spool up with that, the fish may want the more subdued wobble that 10lb Big Game gives ... at the end of the day we're dealing with a living organism that to some extent makes decisions.

 

Spool what you like and enjoy fishing

[mheichelbech]

21 minutes ago, garroyo130 said:

Don't overthink it ... even if you determine that 8lb PLine gives the lure more side to side wobble and spool up with that, the fish may want the more subdued wobble that 10lb Big Game gives ... at the end of the day we're dealing with a living organism that to some extent makes decisions.

 

Spool what you like and enjoy fishing

Lol, I carry an anemometer with me deer hunting so I can tell the likelihood of a thermal tunnel developing along ridge lines as well as predicting eddies in the woods I hunt.  I’m just a little ocd about analyzing things.

[jimmyjoe]

30 minutes ago, mheichelbech said:

 

So should I be looking at diameter of line instead of pound test?  And again, how diameter or pound test makes a difference for action?  Just checked P Line and 8 lb is .012, 10lb is .014 and 12 lb is .0148.  Trilene Big Game is 10lb = .012 and 12lb = .014.  Knowing this is it safe to assume that there would be no action difference between 8lb PLine and 10lb Big Game?

This stuff is an analytical persons dream or nightmare! Thanks for the replies!

 

   We have two different things under consideration here;  1) the depth of the lure, and  2) the action of the lure.

   The depth is affected mainly by the diameter of the line and in a minor way by the hydrophilic/hydrophobic quality of the surface finish. The more resistance the line has, the more it "pills up" the lure. The less resistance it has, the more the lure is allowed to fall. Roughly speaking, you're correct about line diameter; lines of the same diameter affect the lure the same.

 

   There are two kinds of action; native and non-native.

   Native action is the action the lure would have if it were entirely free of drag and damping effects; in other words if it were in a perfect environment. For most cranks, this is a side-to-side wiggle, rock or vibration. For spoons, it's usually a wobble.

   ALL OF THIS CAN BE OVERCOME. Many fishermen tie directly to a crankbait, believing that it's the best way. Sometimes it may be, but sometimes it's not. If the knot is not a loop knot, but tied directly to the tie eye on the lure and pulled tight, and the line is "stiff", the action of the lure can be noticeably impaired. There's nothing wrong with tying directly to a lure, just make sure the lure has an easy range of motion. Some use a loop knot, like a Rapala knot or surgeon's loop, and other use a snap. If you want to know the difference for the lures you use, the solution is easy; get some snaps and try your lures both ways, watching the results carefully.

   Now ..... a little force can be good. It either enhances the native action of a lure, like pulsing a spinnerbait or twitching a spoon, or it gives action to a lure that has none of its own, like walking a topwater or hopping a tube. That's good, not bad. But it needs to be selective and controlled.

   So what the fisherman actually does during the retrieve has a lot to do with it. You either cooperate with or fight the action of the lure with your choice of knots, speed and line.

 

   Also; if a fisherman retrieves at too high a speed, he defeats the native action of the lure. A fast retrieve can even defeat the design of a diving lip, resulting in a lure that runs far too shallow or that spirals out of control. That's not good. Thankfully, it's also not common. You need a lure that lacks inherent stability for it to happen, and I throw those lures away.

   Usually, fishermen retrieve lures too fast, although I admit not extremely fast. But slowing down can change the way the lure works .... and get you more fish. Common sense is the rule of the day.

 

   Now .... the bad news.

   All this is the stuff of fine-tuning. It's not stuff that hits you over the head, jumps out of the water or changes lures from what they are to what they're not. You said that it's an analytical person's nightmare, didn't you? It's not .... it's an OVER-analytical person's nightmare. All of these things can be noticed or discovered by the average fisherman under average circumstances, if they just watch carefully. No need to go gonzo.

   Always remember: You control what you do, what you do doesn't control you.

 

   Hope you have more fun fishing, because in the end, fun is what it's all about.    ?    jj
  

[mheichelbech]

15 minutes ago, jimmyjoe said:

 

   We have two different things under consideration here;  1) the depth of the lure, and  2) the action of the lure.

   The depth is affected mainly by the diameter of the line and in a minor way by the hydrophilic/hydrophobic quality of the surface finish. The more resistance the line has, the more it "pills up" the lure. The less resistance it has, the more the lure is allowed to fall. Roughly speaking, you're correct about line diameter; lines of the same diameter affect the lure the same.

 

   There are two kinds of action; native and non-native.

   Native action is the action the lure would have if it were entirely free of drag and damping effects; in other words if it were in a perfect environment. For most cranks, this is a side-to-side wiggle, rock or vibration. For spoons, it's usually a wobble.

   ALL OF THIS CAN BE OVERCOME. Many fishermen tie directly to a crankbait, believing that it's the best way. Sometimes it may be, but sometimes it's not. If the knot is not a loop knot, but tied directly to the tie eye on the lure and pulled tight, and the line is "stiff", the action of the lure can be noticeably impaired. There's nothing wrong with tying directly to a lure, just make sure the lure has an easy range of motion. Some use a loop knot, like a Rapala knot or surgeon's loop, and other use a snap. If you want to know the difference for the lures you use, the solution is easy; get some snaps and try your lures both ways, watching the results carefully.

   Now ..... a little force can be good. It either enhances the native action of a lure, like pulsing a spinnerbait or twitching a spoon, or it gives action to a lure that has none of its own, like walking a topwater or hopping a tube. That's good, not bad. But it needs to be selective and controlled.

   So what the fisherman actually does during the retrieve has a lot to do with it. You either cooperate with or fight the action of the lure with your choice of knots, speed and line.

 

   Also; if a fisherman retrieves at too high a speed, he defeats the native action of the lure. A fast retrieve can even defeat the design of a diving lip, resulting in a lure that runs far too shallow or that spirals out of control. That's not good. Thankfully, it's also not common. You need a lure that lacks inherent stability for it to happen, and I throw those lures away.

   Usually, fishermen retrieve lures too fast, although I admit not extremely fast. But slowing down can change the way the lure works .... and get you more fish. Common sense is the rule of the day.

 

   Now .... the bad news.

   All this is the stuff of fine-tuning. It's not stuff that hits you over the head, jumps out of the water or changes lures from what they are to what they're not. You said that it's an analytical person's nightmare, didn't you? It's not .... it's an OVER-analytical person's nightmare. All of these things can be noticed or discovered by the average fisherman under average circumstances, if they just watch carefully. No need to go gonzo.

   Always remember: You control what you do, what you do doesn't control you.

 

   Hope you have more fun fishing, because in the end, fun is what it's all about.    ?    jj
  

Thank you and one reason I love fishing (and deer hunting) is they serve my appetite for analysis so well.  All the variables!

[dodgeguy]

Lets assume you both have totally identical setups. You use the same exact line but his is 8 and yours is 12. Same exact lure. His will run slightly deeper on same length cast. This may or may not cause him to catch more fish than you. The thicker line would be better over weeds. The thicker line is also more visible.now you know why pros have so many setups.

[BASS302]

7 hours ago, mheichelbech said:

I’m just a little ocd about analyzing things.

@mheichelbech,

You need to over-analyze even more.  In addition to line diameter, you also need to consider that the density of water changes with temperature and pressure, and that will also affect lure action and sound.  Then there's the specific gravity of the water you are fishing (since no lake is "pure" water) that you need to consider . . . then you need to determine how uniform each of your lures are . . . then . . .

But seriously, quite some time ago, I bought a book, Precision Trolling, which had lure dive charts, and I think they had multiple curves based on various line diameters.  (I can't find the book, so I am going by memory.)  Anyway, I just googled and apparently you have to buy an app for your phone for this data.  Google "Precision Trolling Data".  Is that the type of data you want?

[Gary_Snyder]

Hmmm......if you go down in size with mono/fluoro, the line will tend to stretch easier (and if you go up in line size, less stretch), so it might be a wash, with little to no difference in depth?

[Scott F]

A book was published many years ago, before superlines were being used that tested how deep 200 different lures ran using different sized mono lines. The author was a walleye fisherman where knowing trolling lure depth as well casting depths are critical. For bass fishermen, casting distance, line diameter, lure speed and lure design are all involved in getting lures to the desired depth. A new book needs to be written using current lures and superlines.