Dobyns Ultra Finesse/BFS rods out now

[bulldog1935]

that's because BFS for trout made it to USA after BFS for bass. 

I hope this thing is on. 

[Tatulatard]

17 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

that's because BFS for trout made it to USA after BFS for bass. 

I hope this thing is on. 

I always heard of it as a system.  Bait finesse system.  A rod reel and line with the rod being the special part and what makes it new and bass specific.  UL casting rods and light weight spool abus and Japanese round reels have been around for ages for Japanese stream trout fishing and are way older than bfs.  They didnt coin that term until they made light and ul powered bass rods.   I had a majorcraft day's light bfs rod and a light trout rod and they were worlds apart.  The trout rod was a willow branch compared to the bfs rod.  I could throw a 1/16 bitsy bug at a lay down and haul a 6 lbs out with that thing.  Not even in the realm of possibility with that trout rod.  

[bulldog1935]

hey, what do I know

 

[QED]

16 hours ago, Tatulatard said:

[stuff deleted] UL casting rods and light weight spool abus and Japanese round reels have been around for ages for Japanese stream trout fishing and are way older than bfs.  [stuff deleted]  

 

The shimano "colfor" casting rods from the eighties (and possibly even as early as the very late seventies) ranged from UL to heavy and were definitely bass rods.  I caught a 14 lb striper using a colfor UL casting rod and 6 lb test. Doubt you could do that with the typical UL rated trout rod.  So BFS gear was made and sold into the USDM before the BFS nomenclature was even invented.  The better shimano bantam reels from that era handled light lines just fine.

[Tatulatard]

5 hours ago, QED said:

 

The shimano "colfor" casting rods from the eighties (and possibly even as early as the very late seventies) ranged from UL to heavy and were definitely bass rods.  I caught a 14 lb striper using a colfor UL casting rod and 6 lb test. Doubt you could do that with the typical UL rated trout rod.  So BFS gear was made and sold into the USDM before the BFS nomenclature was even invented.  The better shimano bantam reels from that era handled light lines just fine.

I don't know when they started with that nomenclature but rods with "bfs" on them are different animals from ones with the same same ultra light and light ratings but are trout rods or non bfs.  I had an ace hawk ul rod but bought the light bfs majorcraft rod for more backbone but still able to cast light baits and it was ideal.  The rod shut off after the 1st guide and can move fish.  The ul ace hawk was like a willow branch and the whole rod down to the reel seat would bend.  It was like the difference between a M bass rod and MH musky rod.  Worlds apart. The majorcraft low bait weight rating was off though.  It was best with 1/16 and a very small plastic or 1/32 and a 3 inch plastic, weightless 3 inch plastics or a wacky floating worm.  I could go right down the shore follow boats and pull fish they missed with that rod and baits.  I lost it when I pulled a rod out of a holder, got caught and came out with it the other rod and into the depths.

[QED]

7 hours ago, Tatulatard said:

I don't know when they started with that nomenclature but rods with "bfs" on them are different animals from ones with the same same ultra light and light ratings but are trout rods or non bfs.  [stuff deleted]

 

None of that changes the FACT that Shimano was making and selling casting rods back in the eighties that were designed for bass fishing and were specifically designed for 4 -10 lb test line and 1/16 - 3/8 oz lures.  That would be considered BFS now.  Backbone enough for 14 lb stripers.

[Tatulatard]

2 hours ago, QED said:

 

None of that changes the FACT that Shimano was making and selling casting rods back in the eighties that were designed for bass fishing and were specifically designed for 4 -10 lb test line and 1/16 - 3/8 oz lures.  That would be considered BFS now.  Backbone enough for 14 lb stripers.

I've never met a rod that can throw both 1/16 oz and 3/8 oz.  Sounds more like a ml rod to me.  My old majorcraft bfs was rated for 1/16 oz with 1/4 oz max.  You weren't casting 1/16 oz with that rod unless it was a 1/16 oz hunk of lead stuck to a hook with a 2 inch plastic on it.

[QED]

4 hours ago, Tatulatard said:

I've never met a rod that can throw both 1/16 oz and 3/8 oz.  Sounds more like a ml rod to me.  My old majorcraft bfs was rated for 1/16 oz with 1/4 oz max.  You weren't casting 1/16 oz with that rod unless it was a 1/16 oz hunk of lead stuck to a hook with a 2 inch plastic on it.

 

Now you're just speculating based upon no experience with the subject rod.  Not useful info for anyone.

[Tatulatard]

1 hour ago, QED said:

 

Now you're just speculating based upon no experience with the subject rod. 

Well, yes I don't have that rod.  It's quite extraordinary Shimano invented the bfs rod back in the 80s and has managed a feat no modern bfs can match.  Truly a remarkable rod.  

[QED]

1 hour ago, Tatulatard said:

Well, yes I don't have that rod.  It's quite extraordinary Shimano invented the bfs rod back in the 80s and has managed a feat no modern bfs can match.  Truly a remarkable rod.  

 

There are high end rods that you obviously haven't experienced.  That's on you. 

 

[Tatulatard]

1 hour ago, QED said:

 

There are high end rods that you obviously haven't experienced.  That's on you. 

 

That Shimano looks like a toothpick next to the modern rod.  I actually want that phenix to replace my lost majorcraft and have been reading about it for a while.  The problem has been that the rating looks VERY optimistic.  I refuse to belive it is going to throw a 1/16 oz UL bait and then something like a 5/8 oz trap.  I'm guessing "1/16 oz" is actually closer to 1/8-5/16 oz with a 1/16 jighead and plastic?  That was the sweet spot of my majorcraft day's rod but I thought about stepping up to the light powered rod.  What's the sweet spot on the phenix?

[WC53]

Falcon SWC-67ML ?

[QED]

On 4/15/2022 at 9:15 PM, Tatulatard said:

That Shimano looks like a toothpick next to the modern rod.  I actually want that phenix to replace my lost majorcraft and have been reading about it for a while.  The problem has been that the rating looks VERY optimistic.  I refuse to belive it is going to throw a 1/16 oz UL bait and then something like a 5/8 oz trap.  I'm guessing "1/16 oz" is actually closer to 1/8-5/16 oz with a 1/16 jighead and plastic?  That was the sweet spot of my majorcraft day's rod but I thought about stepping up to the light powered rod.  What's the sweet spot on the phenix?

 

You disparage my favorite rod based on nothing and then you ask me for advice?  Welcome to my ignore list.  You get the honor of being the first one!

[garroyo130]

Everyone here is very passionate about the history of BFS ... must be writing a book or something

 

[Tatulatard]

4 hours ago, QED said:

 

You disparage my favorite rod based on nothing and then you ask me for advice?  Welcome to my ignore list.  You get the honor of being the first one!

Disparage?  GOOD LORD!

[fishwizzard]

4 hours ago, garroyo130 said:

Everyone here is very passionate about the history of BFS ... must be writing a book or something

 

 

Most everyone is working off of poorly translated materials, so it's hard to pin anything down.  I am in the "BFS refers only to a specific style of rods aimed at bass fishing" camp just based on how the various Japanese companies use the term in their nomenclature/marketing.  I have never seen a rod labeled "Bait Finesse" or "BFS" that wasn't clearly part of a bass fishing line.  

[bulldog1935]

Hiroyuki Motoyama coined BFS in print, c. 2000

To him, it meant Bait Finesse Shore (fishing), tying it directly to Caro roots. 

(rhetorical - how many bass boats do you guys think run around Japan)

 

As I mentioned, salt BFS rods have only appeared in the past few years. 

Valleyhill calls their salt rod RFF for Rockfish Finesse - they don't want to confuse you, made more and more evident on this thread. 

 

Before WWII, Shakespeare didn't call this reel BFS, but that's what it was - alloy spool, factory shallow cork arbor. The reel was called Tournament Freespool. 

Progressive rods were easier to find then than the stout paras Heddon made for muskie. 

The matching silk threadline is 4-lb. 

If you have the big $, you can find a Meek No. 1 from turn of the last century.   

There will be 40 collectors trying to snag it before you get there. 

 

[Tatulatard]

1 hour ago, bulldog1935 said:

Hiroyuki Motoyama coined BFS in print, c. 2000

 

As I mentioned, salt BFS rods have only appeared in the past few years. 

Valleyhill calls their salt rod RFF for Rockfish Finesse - they don't want to confuse you. 

 

Before WWII, Shakespeare didn't call this reel BFS, but that's what it was - alloy spool, factory shallow cork arbor. The reel was called Tournament Freespool. 

Progressive rods were easier to find then than the stout paras Heddon made for muskie. 

The matching silk threadline is 4-lb. 

If you have the big $, you can find a Meek No. 1 from turn of the last century.   

There will be 40 collectors trying to snag it before you get there. 

 

Neat but "moutain stream bait finesse" is not the same as "bait finesse system".  I don't pretend to know what really defines BFS in Japan although there was a video going around in 2010 braking it down in Japanese and it basically was described as a way to present small jigs imitating grass shrimp to pressured bass in clear water on 7 lb flouro line.  Skipping 1/16 to 1/8 oz jigs to the bank on light powered rods with strong backbones to pull the fish away from cover.  The system being the bait, line rod and reel.  Wish I could find that video.  In any case that trout rod is interesting.  I don't know a lot about jdm trout rod but that they do come in "area" and "stream" builds.  Area being ment for stocked trout "areas" and are softer often glass rods with the stream rods being graphite rods for wild and maybe also stocked stream trout.  I would hazzard a guess that the defining worlds on that "mountain stream bait finesse" rod is the word "stream" and that is shares nothing with what we would call a BFS rod and that the are very likely, complete opposites in terms of how they are built.  From my experience a trout rod and a BFS are as different as a musky MH and a bass MH rod.  Just completely different animals.  

 

It's possible, even probable that "bait finesse" predated BFS by quite a while dating back to maybe even before bass were even introduced to Japan with guys fishing round reels on bamboo rods for wild Japanese trout in the mountain streams.  Bait finesse system could have come along later to specify a line rod and reel combination for finesse bass fishing in cover.  Anyone who has ever thrown a bitsy bug or ned rig knows that they just get a lot of bites that bigger jigs will miss.  The Japanese catching on to this and making specific rods, line and spools for reels seems very plausible.  

[bulldog1935]

that must be why it says bass in the name (not)

 

The Japanese have a dozen offshore niches for their BFS reels. 

Part of what makes it a System is that you can move the same reel to niche rods for mountain stream, boat, shore fishing, offshore UL jigging.  This is how people in Japan use them - all they have to do is turn around to find a different niche, and they take advantage of all opportunities.  This is exactly what Hiro Motoyama (who coined BFS) was promoting in all his books 20+ years ago. 

 

oops, the bass BFS rod doesn't say BFS

 

If it's marketed to the US, it's bass niche, because that's all the Japanese know about fishing in the US - they've also learned use of buzzwords in marketing from the US. 

[Tatulatard]

29 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

that must be why it says bass in the name

The "Be Sticky Trout"?

2 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

salt BFS rods have only appeared in the past few years. 

Valleyhill calls their salt rod RFF for Rockfish Finesse - they don't want to confuse you

Being nitpicky here but do they call them "BFS" or are you adding that on yourself?  There is a tendency by anglers to call light or ultra light casting rods BFS instead of just spelling out that's its an UL casting rod.  They just love to attach that acronym to rods that don't have them printed on the outside.  I think this stems from a misunderstanding that "BFS" just means "casting light weights with a baitcaster" so any casting rod that can cast light weights gets the "BFS" tacked on by anglers.  In my experience rods from Japan, including manufactures that have trout rod and salt rods, will only apply the BFS labeling to their bass lines. 

[onenutinthewater]

Back on topic does anyone know where a guy can find an 8'-9' UL casting rod? NFC makes a 901 blank and I recently broke mine but may just have to get a few more made.

[Tatulatard]

47 minutes ago, onenutinthewater said:

Back on topic does anyone know where a guy can find an 8'-9' UL casting rod? NFC makes a 901 blank and I recently broke mine but may just have to get a few more made.

Have you looked at any of the Japanese seabass rods?  I know more than a few have 8-9 foot light and ml casting rods.  You'd have the reference the bait range to see if any would be a good fit.  Major craft crostage comes to mind.  They have a seabass crostage "LL" for 5-20 grams.  

[redmeansdistortion]

13 hours ago, onenutinthewater said:

Back on topic does anyone know where a guy can find an 8'-9' UL casting rod? NFC makes a 901 blank and I recently broke mine but may just have to get a few more made.

Check with Gray Wolf Customs here in Michigan.  The guy makes some really high quality rods, mostly from glass but he also does graphite and carbon.  He is trout people like you and I, and has recently been getting into the L and UL casting rod game.  @bulldog1935 knows the guy well via another forum.

[ska4fun]

Why a rod claiming to be utrafinesse has such a large diameter for the rod overall?

[Tatulatard]

22 minutes ago, ska4fun said:

Why a rod claiming to be utrafinesse has such a large diameter for the rod overall?

A bass rod.  The little trout rods are the ones that look like a toothpick.  Japan typically uses "bfs" to delineate between a light or ultra light trout rod and bass rod.  These rods also typically live within a family of normal bass rods.  There will be "normal" powers as well as a bfs line with light and ultra light powers.   Zodias, expride, benkai, days, rebellion and many many more bass rods all offer a L or UL or both in their Japanese versions it is so common.   Not so much in the states but some bands are starting to offer bfs like rods too.