Otters affect on Bass .

[MGF]

5 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

ive been in northwest Ohio all week and drove to Elkhart Indiana Monday. I’m no stranger to the corn. My fiancé grew up here. The critters are in the drainage ditches on the side of the road, even monster bucks. Lots o muskrat . We had an intern from Indiana work with us once, He’s a helluva trapper. A customer

had a possum in her crawl space and said “why do I have possum, there’s no tree near my house.” Danny replies “ma’am I’m from Indiana where you can’t see a tree for miles and there’s possum everywhere” Danny still traps in Indiana all season and lots of people call for his services. The “barren” Midwest corn is full of fur and trappers 

The most desolate land I could show you is in parts of north central Illinois...say along rt 64 west of Chicago. There might be something living in a drainage ditch someplace but that ditch doesn't provide much habitat. I worked in that area for years and traveled those roads at all hours and seasons. I never saw anything other than a few birds. My wife and I even walked the roadside in good snow just to see...nothing. I haven't seen anything in Indiana that quit compares.

 

Where I live it isn't that bad yet but it's going that direction. The point is that if you turn an otter lose there he's going to aggravate somebody. LOL

[TnRiver46]

4 minutes ago, MGF said:

The most desolate land I could show you is in parts of north central Illinois...say along rt 64 west of Chicago. There might be something living in a drainage ditch someplace but that ditch doesn't provide much habitat. I worked in that area for years and traveled those roads at all hours and seasons. I never saw anything other than a few birds. My wife and I even walked the roadside in good snow just to see...nothing. I haven't seen anything in Indiana that quit compares.

 

Where I live it isn't that bad yet but it's going that direction. The point is that if you turn an otter lose there he's going to aggravate somebody. LOL

I know this well, it’s how I put food on the table. The critters are nocturnal and you won’t find their tracks on a casual walk. They sneak the edges and swim the drainage tiles . Trapping ain’t for the faint of heart. Last I heard there’s coyotes all over Chicago and monster bucks in Illinois corn 

 

critters have to survive and showing themselves to humans is not going to help with that 

[MGF]

7 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Otter fur was quite literally currency which is why they were extirpated. People killing them to protect their ponds won’t make a dent 

People with ponds were glad to be rid of them. As the number of otters grew here I didn't appreciate the apparent effects either. 

 

 

[TnRiver46]

4 minutes ago, MGF said:

People with ponds were glad to be rid of them. As the number of otters grew here I didn't appreciate the apparent effects either. 

 

 

I say we get you supplied with some waders and 330 conibears and a lot of steel cable. If you got a problem, that’s how to solve it. Granted you’ll never get rid of them like they used to unless grocery stores and places to work all shut down and fur becomes currency again 

[MGF]

4 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I know this well, it’s how I put food on the table. The critters are nocturnal and you won’t find their tracks on a casual walk. They sneak the edges and swim the drainage tiles . Trapping ain’t for the faint of heart. Last I heard there’s coyotes all over Chicago and monster bucks in Illinois corn 

 

critters have to survive and showing themselves to humans is not going to help with that 

There are coyotes in Chicago and they try to eat my dad's dog in the western suburbs of Chicago. There are lots of bucks in Il but not everyplace in Illinois. If the only vegetation is seasonal corn the carrying capacity will be very low. Maybe I'm not being clear?

 

I know where to look for tracks thanks. Again, there might be something living in a drainage ditch someplace. So? Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

6 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I say we get you supplied with some waders and 330 conibears and a lot of steel cable. If you got a problem, that’s how to solve it 

I don't have a pond. It's not legal for me to trap on private property along the river and I'm really not available to float the river to run a trap line on a daily basis. Last I checked a trapper is only allowed one otter/year and that just started in the last couple of years. Prior to that the otters were protected.

 

But I have some conibears (at home and at work) and know where to get more if I need them. Thanks.

[TnRiver46]

11 minutes ago, MGF said:

There are coyotes in Chicago and they try to eat my dad's dog in the western suburbs of Chicago. There are lots of bucks in Il but not everyplace in Illinois. If the only vegetation is seasonal corn the carrying capacity will be very low. Maybe I'm not being clear?

 

I know where to look for tracks thanks. Again, there might be something living in a drainage ditch someplace. So? Maybe I'm not understanding your point.

I’m saying the critters are still there whether you see tracks or not. That’s not a personal attack, I’m always shocked myself at just how many animals live where I wouldn’t think they do. It’s amazing. Snow covers up tracks, are you hiking at night? Also critters can hunker down in the snow. I guarantee a trapper or just a night camera would see/catch tons of wildlife where you think it’s barren. I’ve caught many many many many animals where I saw no tracks. I would estimate one of your cornfields that you say doesn’t support a mouse supports at least two dozen mice. Just ask the guy that owns the land and stores the grain 

 

our customers always say they’ve never seen coon tracks or coons in their yard and the raccoons quite literally live in their attic . Usually 5-6 of them 

 

im not going to walk into a bank and tell an accountant there’s no money in the bank just because I’m not looking right at it 

 

uniform habitat like cornfield is not great for diversity but there’s still a group of species that make a fine living in the flat corn and beans of the Midwest. 

[MGF]

20 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I’m saying the critters are still there whether you see tracks or not. That’s not a personal attack, I’m always shocked myself at just how many animals live where I wouldn’t think they do. It’s amazing. Snow covers up tracks, are you hiking at night? Also critters can hunker down in the snow. I guarantee a trapper or just a night camera would see/catch tons of wildlife where you think it’s barren. I’ve caught many many many many animals where I saw no tracks. I would estimate one of your cornfields that you say doesn’t support a mouse supports at least two dozen mice. Just ask the guy that owns the land and stores the grain 

 

our customers always say they’ve never seen coon tracks or coons in their yard and the raccoons quite literally live in their attic . Usually 5-6 of them 

 

im not going to walk into a bank and tell an accountant there’s no money in the bank just because I’m not looking right at it 

 

uniform habitat like cornfield is not great for diversity but there’s still a group of species that make a fine living in the flat corn and beans of the Midwest. 

My comment about not supporting a mouse was somewhat "tongue in cheek".

Sure snow can cover tracks at times but if you have snow and very many critters traveling through that snow, you will see tracks. I'm not one of your customers and I'm no stranger to fields, woods and tracking. What about a bank? LOL

 

A deer will eat like a king in a corn or bean field...it's when the crops are picked all the way to the ground that they need something else. When crops are combined with other cover like wood lots the deer grow many and big. The woodlots and fence rows are going away in many areas. The key term here once again is carrying capacity...deer/ unit area...yes?

 

The carrying capacity can be greatly diminished by various types of development.

 

 

[livin2fish]

12 minutes ago, MGF said:

The carrying capacity can be greatly diminished by various types of development.

And thats when the critters move to the burbs.  But this seems like a bit off the original topic which was just, otters effect on a fishery.

[TnRiver46]

23 minutes ago, MGF said:

 I'm not one of your customers and I'm no stranger to fields, woods and tracking.

 

 

The carrying capacity can be greatly diminished by various types of development.

 

 

Most of the customers are also no strangers to the fields and woods, it’s just very tricky. Sometimes I can’t figure how the raccoon got on the roof, and a field is far more vast than a yard.

 

carrying capacity can indeed be diminished by development and typically is. I’ve also seen development increase carrying capacity, especially houses. There are 100x more skunks in neighborhoods here than in the smoky mountain national park. Why? Food. Humans come with food. Bird feeders, cat food, dog food, garbage, and constantly irrigated lawns full of worms. 
 

the species of wildlife that large scale agriculture such as corn and beans in the Midwest effect are mostly amphibians, songbirds, and some game birds . Almost all mammalian species are doing quite well with it. 

[Log Catcher]

One lake I fish it is common to see Otters. I move to another area when I see them. I don't want to snag one of them or have them mistake my crankbait for a small fish.

[MGF]

7 minutes ago, livin2fish said:

And thats when the critters move to the burbs.  But this seems like a bit off the original topic which was just, otters effect on a fishery.

 

 

On topic - I think otters can definitely effect fish populations and, further, some fisheries are probably very sensitive to those effects. I think (but can't prove) that my river is one such fishery.

[livin2fish]

7 minutes ago, Log Catcher said:

One lake I fish it is common to see Otters. I move to another area when I see them. I don't want to snag one of them or have them mistake my crankbait for a small fish.

This is not meant to be an argumentative question.  Do you know that this has happened?  I have always thought that they are smart and this wouldn't happen.  Probably my naivety.   

3 minutes ago, MGF said:

On topic - I think otters can definitely effect fish populations and, further, some fisheries are probably very sensitive to those effects. I think (but can't prove) that my river is one such fishery.

As I do mine, but have no idea to what extent.  Strong feeling about my cove though.

[MGF]

10 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

Most of the customers are also no strangers to the fields and woods, it’s just very tricky. Sometimes I can’t figure how the raccoon got on the roof, and a field is far more vast than a yard.

 

carrying capacity can indeed be diminished by development and typically is. I’ve also seen development increase carrying capacity, especially houses. There are 100x more skunks in neighborhoods here than in the smoky mountain national park. Why? Food. Humans come with food. Bird feeders, cat food, dog food, garbage, and constantly irrigated lawns full of worms. 
 

the species of wildlife that large scale agriculture such as corn and beans in the Midwest effect are mostly amphibians, songbirds, and some game birds . Almost 100% of mammal species are doing quite well with it. 

Well I haven't ever need any help keeping the coons or groundhogs out of my buildings...though the bats were a pain in the backside for a while.

 

I don't think I disagree with you except that your statement about mammals and crop fields is a too general. There are plenty of deer (for example) but there are not lots of deer everyplace. You're right farming hasn't killed all the deer but it sure has moved them out of some areas.

[Log Catcher]

3 minutes ago, livin2fish said:

This is not meant to be an argumentative question.  Do you know that this has happened?  I have always thought that they are smart and this wouldn't happen.  Probably my naivety.   

As I do mine, but have no idea to what extent.  Strong feeling about my cove though.

No I don't know that this has happened. Since it is possible to snag a fish or catch some other species looking for a meal I don't feel like taking a chance.

[livin2fish]

1 minute ago, MGF said:

You're right farming hasn't killed all the deer but it sure has moved them out of some areas.

Topic is getting wider and wider, so I'll ad to it.  If you want to get a record white tail buck you go to IA, Illinois, and other midwest states.  Farming must do some good for the deer, even without habitat.

[MGF]

24 minutes ago, livin2fish said:

Topic is getting wider and wider, so I'll ad to it.  If you want to get a record white tail buck you go to IA, Illinois, and other midwest states.  Farming must do some good for the deer, even without habitat.

But not all areas of Illinois are equal. Whitetail deer will be near cover. In some places there is little or no cover for 7 months of the year. You will not see many deer or any deer at all in a place like that. The hunters know it because we won't be hunting there. You can't even find a track and we don't need a banker to tell us that. LOL

 

I live in corn country and just going to and from work and my other normal driving, I see hundreds of deer in a weeks time. Not just deer but in the typical week I'll see dozens or even hundreds of turkeys. But we still have quite a lot of woodlots or other year round cover. The crops add a rich food source to the woods which are really pretty calorie lean by comparison. So deer densities and deer size are greater than in some large tracts of forest.

 

Yet there are areas of Il where I worked for years and NEVER saw a deer or a turkey. Do you know why? Because there aren't very many there. There could be some using a ditch someplace...but not many. The carrying capacity is very low because there isn't much food or cover for 7 months of the year.

 

Crops alone aren't enough.

[TnRiver46]

52 minutes ago, MGF said:

Well I haven't ever need any help keeping the coons or groundhogs out of my buildings...though the bats were a pain in the backside for a while.

 

I don't think I disagree with you except that your statement about mammals and crop fields is a too general. There are plenty of deer (for example) but there are not lots of deer everyplace. You're right farming hasn't killed all the deer but it sure has moved them out of some areas.

I can help with bats! Those are our best paying jobs 

[MGF]

12 minutes ago, TnRiver46 said:

I can help with bats! Those are our best paying jobs 

Thanks but I think I have it taken care of.

 

I don't know about other states but I was shocked to find that it's illegal here to evict bats during the time of year when they might have young...and I don't think you can toss them out in the winter either.

 

I wonder how the state feel about charging them rent.

[TnRiver46]

1 hour ago, livin2fish said:

Topic is getting wider and wider, so I'll ad to it.  If you want to get a record white tail buck you go to IA, Illinois, and other midwest states.  Farming must do some good for the deer, even without habitat.

Sorry about that topic widening! I studied wildlife science in college and always tend to go “big picture” on habitat discussions 

9 minutes ago, MGF said:

Thanks but I think I have it taken care of.

 

I don't know about other states but I was shocked to find that it's illegal here to evict bats during the time of year when they might have young...and I don't think you can toss them out in the winter either.

 

I wonder how the state feel about charging them rent.

Hands off period for bat exclusion here is June and July, but if they are flying around inside your house they will make an exception. Also they hibernate in winter, rarely in a building 

[N Florida Mike]

Ok . I have an ulterior motive to discuss about otters.  I was getting more and bigger bass every year in my home lake. Then last year it started going backward. I do 95% of the fishing on the lake , so Im sure nobody is catching and keeping all the big bass. The only answer to the mystery that makes any sense is otters. There is no way the bass went anywhere- the outlets are way too shallow most of the year . They really arent outlets but INLETS into the lake. Even if the water stayed high enough for them to leave, the outlets dont go anywhere- the fish would have to come back or die.

We havent had a gator in the lake in a while now either.

We have fish eating birds but none more than 2 years ago when I was catching 7-8 pounders.

I even had a couple big bass hunter friends come in 3 times this year and couldn’t even catch a 3 pounder yet, using different baits than I usually fish.

Another weird thing is I still catch catfish. Otters ate my catfish last time they came but I still had a good population of big bass then.

So Im scratching my head trying to figure this out. It doesn’t make any sense.

Biggest bass last year.: 4 pounds 10 oz. 

Way down from the last few years biggest fish.

[TnRiver46]

@N Florida Mike, if the otters are around In your small lake, you should see some piles of poo with crawdad shells all in it on the banks. I would thin the small bass herd, that big skinny 21” you got the other day looked starved out. Too many mouths to feed. 
 

the otters can clean out a pond like we discussed above (which I think you’ve experienced before), but in a small ecosystem like that they would show themselves occasionally. We see them frequently in the daytime on the small private trout stream that I guide on. They typically live in an undercut bank 

[MGF]

I don't have any science on it and I really don't expect any help from the state but our river is sort of like a bunch of small lakes...the riffle, hole, run deal and holes can be fairly far apart. When the otters move into an area the fish seem to disappear. I can't say whether the otters ate them, ran them out or if it's all pure coincidence. Granted things are always changing on the river and there are many variables.

[N Florida Mike]

14 hours ago, TnRiver46 said:

@N Florida Mike, if the otters are around In your small lake, you should see some piles of poo with crawdad shells all in it on the banks. I would thin the small bass herd, that big skinny 21” you got the other day looked starved out. Too many mouths to feed. 
 

the otters can clean out a pond like we discussed above (which I think you’ve experienced before), but in a small ecosystem like that they would show themselves occasionally. We see them frequently in the daytime on the small private trout stream that I guide on. They typically live in an undercut bank 

I havent seen any of there poop, . I do see nutria poop at my landing frequently. I trap them and remove to an undisclosed location. ?

I dont even know that I have otters. when one shows up, I usually see it pretty quick because Im on the water so much. My friends that said they saw them were sure that’s what they were. Im doubtful. I see nutrias a lot and to me ,  it’s easy to tell the difference. Im not so sure my friends know the difference.

As far as thinning the bass herd, I do that . I get a lot more healthy fish than skinny . Got a fair to good forage base in the lake .Im thinking that fish might have been gut hooked in the past , and maybe had some injury from it. 

What I cant figure out is where all the big  bass went. I have managed the lake for years to keep good numbers and bigger fish. Ive released every fish over 16 inches except the rare fish that had gill damage from the hook and died ...

Mysterious conditions at the moment...

[TnRiver46]

42 minutes ago, N Florida Mike said:

I havent seen any of there poop, . I do see nutria poop at my landing frequently. I trap them and remove to an undisclosed location. ?

I dont even know that I have otters. when one shows up, I usually see it pretty quick because Im on the water so much. My friends that said they saw them were sure that’s what they were. Im doubtful. I see nutrias a lot and to me ,  it’s easy to tell the difference. Im not so sure my friends know the difference.

As far as thinning the bass herd, I do that . I get a lot more healthy fish than skinny . Got a fair to good forage base in the lake .Im thinking that fish might have been gut hooked in the past , and maybe had some injury from it. 

What I cant figure out is where all the big  bass went. I have managed the lake for years to keep good numbers and bigger fish. Ive released every fish over 16 inches except the rare fish that had gill damage from the hook and died ...

Mysterious conditions at the moment...

Those nutria are crazy! I’ve accidentally spooked a few in Alabama and they splashed water everywhere!!! Well I certainly can’t help with where your big bass went, but I bet they’ll be back one day. It is Florida after all! 

[N Florida Mike]

Yeah , the residents are always after me to trap the nutrias, but they dont care about the stupid domesticated geese and ducks somebody put in. Lord knows  we have enough canadian geese and mallards without putting more in.

Hopefully , snapping turtles, hawks, and owls will keep the numbers down some...