Did baitcast reels always have brakes?

[Darth-Baiter]

I think my first BC reel was a “magforce”. Daiwa??  It had a magnetic brake. I was a kid, and I backlashed that thing a few time to the point of no return.  I did get better at casting.  Back then I was fishing Elephant Butte lake for white bass.  (The Sassy shad!)

 

I assume further back, there was no brake?   100% thumb action?   Man!  How tough was that?!

[bulldog1935]

You may get more answers than you asked on this thread.  

Thumb is always the best brake, and has always been the most important part of baitcasting.  

Most antique baitcasters had spindle end tension, comparable to "cast control" on modern reels - tightening the end cap bearings against the spool spindle.  

 

The highest grade antique benchmade reels, Meek, Talbot, and Jack Welch Heddon, instead used oil whirl in the spindle bushings for backlash control, which behaves much like a centrifugal brake.

 

A separate adjustable brake on antique reels was often a wool pad that you dialed into the spool flange.  The first reactive brake was 1911, South Bend ABL, which used a bail over the line, allowing line tension to guide and modulate the wool pad.  Though not a great distance caster, South Bend ABL could be adjusted to an absolute no-thumbs reel.  

 

The first centrifugal brake patent was 1915, Redifor, which consisted of two metal pawls on the spool flange that rubbed the frame - it worked too well at braking, and they're not very good casters. But if you check the thread I linked, they looked really good.  

 

The 1918 Douglas patent was far ahead of its time, offering freespool by disengaging the pinion gear from both the drive gear and the spool, anti-reverse in the same mechanism, and a functional level wind that was also separate from the spool. The subtle casting brake consisted of a cam-loaded fine-wire spring that acted on the spool drum.  

 

The first good freespool and the centrifugal brake that we all recognize was the Abu Ambassadeur, designed in the late '40s, and first produced in 1952.  

 

The mag brakes that you remember, appearing in the 1980s, didn't do a lot compared to modern versions.  

The antique Meek, Talbot, and Heddon reels that I first mentioned were modified and used almost exclusively for tournament distance casting right through the 1970s (and later), with (stripped down) Ambassadeurs gradually working their way into the competition.  Abu's first purpose-built tournament casting reel (CT) had a short run in the 1970s, a second limited version in 1980.  Later CT versions with ball bearings have continued production since 1991, and with good mag brakes beginning 1995.  

 

 

[Captain Phil]

My first baitcasting reel was a Pflueger Akron.  Other than tightening the spool, there was no brake other than your thumb.  Bass fishing was different back then.  Reel spools were heavy metal and hard to start and stop.  Backlashes were so normal we called them "professional overruns".  Bass lures were big chucks of wood or heavy spoons. Fishing line was thick woven material that absorbed a lot of water.  There was no such thing as finesse. This did not deter us.  Good casting ability was something to be proud of. I spent hours and hours casting into a bucket on my front lawn until I could hit it every time. There was no YouTube videos to tell you how.  Despite these handicaps, we caught lots of fish.  

[redmeansdistortion]

I learned to use a baitcast reel with my grandpa's old Shakespeare knuckle buster.  Quite the primitive piece of equipment compared to what we have now.  I was a broke kid in the 80s and couldn't afford even a cheap baitcast reel, so I forced myself to learn since it was all I had.  Paired with a Shakespeaere Wonderod and a 1 ounce Dardevle with the hook removed, I had a lot of fun learning to use that thing.  I never actually fished that reel until about 20 years back, but it got me in the yard working on my thumb the decade prior.

[Captain Phil]

Fishing for "yard bass" was popular back then.  I trained myself to use a fly rod in my front yard with a mail order bamboo rod.  Yards were bigger then too!  ☺️

[Fishes in trees]

Once upon a time I had an old Diawa Magforce reel, it had the dial on the outside of the casing to dial in the magnets.  I was such a rookie that I was afraid to open up the reel and at the time the reel repair guy only came to town once or twice a year.   I got pretty good at using this reel by changing the magnetic setting as I used different weight baits and depending on if I was mostly throwing with the wind, or crosswind or into the wind.   I never did open that reel up.   That reel got stolen.

Every time I think about it I hope for some pox to fall on the low rent crud who broke into my car and stole my fishing gear.

[diehardbassfishing]

5 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

Meek, Talbot, and Jack Welch Heddon, instead used oil whirl in the spindle bushings for backlash control, which behaves much like a centrifugal brake.

 

Is there a diagram or pic that would show this design?

(Or is it so basic that there really isn't much to see?)

 

 

Karl

[bulldog1935]

these are simply free-spinning bronze bushings for the spindle in the side plate, with a larger oil reservoir outside the plate - see the oil hole - and fixed agate bearings for the spindle ends. You might be able to make out the flattened agate on the end above.  The highest grade Meeks used ruby and sapphire bearings instead of agate.  

The fixed jewels and oil reservoir are what makes this different from threaded caps containing a jewel (or glass) bearing that moves on the cap threads typical of all the other reels with adjusting spindle end tension.  

This is a blue glass bearing in the threaded end cap - tightening the cap loads the bearing on the spindle end.  

 

As the spindle turns faster under load, the oil can't completely film the spindle, and oil pressure acts as a braking force.  Oil whirl instability is a bearing vibration mode, and you can hear it when you cast an oiled Meek, Talbot or Welch Heddon.    

If you read the mechanical analysis below, the "disturbing force" is the jerk of initially starting the spool in a cast - with oil whirl acting as a centrifugal brake.  Note that a normal thin oil film won't produce this, but you need the supply of an oil reservoir.  

 

Normally, the shaft rides on the crest of an oil pressure gradient, rising slightly up the side of the bearing somewhat off vertical at a given, stable attitude angle and eccentricity. The amount of rise depends on the rotor speed, rotor weight and oil pressure. With the shaft operating eccentrically relative to the bearing center, it draws the oil into a wedge to produce this pressurized load-carrying film.

Figure 1. Oil Film Within a Journal ¹

If the shaft receives a disturbing force such as a sudden surge or external shock, it can momentarily increase the eccentricity from its equilibrium position. When this occurs, additional oil is immediately pumped into the space vacated by the shaft.

This results in an increased pressure of the load-carrying film, creating additional force between the oil film and shaft. In this case, the oil film can actually drive the shaft ahead of it in a forward circular motion and into a whirling path around the bearing within the bearing clearance.

[BigAngus752]

29 minutes ago, diehardbassfishing said:

 

Is there a diagram or pic that would show this design?

(Or is it so basic that there really isn't much to see?)

 

 

Karl

Thanks for asking that and thanks @bulldog1935 for answering.  That's fascinating.  So many machinists working on preventing oil whirl in journal bearings and they brilliantly used it to their advantage.  

[diehardbassfishing]

Oh, thanks! Sorta like an oil pump, where the oil doesn't have anywhere to go?

 

 

Karl

[diehardbassfishing]

Reading more on this. Really a mechanical system that goes into resonance.

Hard to see at first that OIL can act in such a way - but like all fluids, it can't compress like a gas. It acts much like a solid. A fluid solid.

 

Cool thought experiment!

 

 

Karl

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oil-whirl

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WRB]

How do you all think a car engine piston rods on a crankshaft works? 

A well trained thumb works on a bait casting reels.

Tom

 

 

[diehardbassfishing]

1 hour ago, WRB said:

How do you all think a car engine piston rods on a crankshaft works? 

 

 

A properly designed engine can't be allowed to go into WHIRL mode. It would be destructive.

Check out the link on engineering/oil-whirl.

 

 

 

Karl

[WRB]

Babbitt bearing floats on a thin layer of oil to keep the+metal coil, metal to metal they fail quickly.

Agree not a whirl in the sense of the reel spool shaft cap.

Tom

 

 

[Gary_Snyder]

Some old baitcasters did not even have a levelwind.

 

Perhaps a few saltwater/catfish reels still don't?

[bulldog1935]

Even the best Non-Freespool + non-level-wind (NLW) reels of 100 years ago will out-distance modern level winds.  Modern level winds are getting closer, especially with braid, and they're obviously more convenient for bass fishing.  

The old stuff can be fun to fish, or just yard cast to work on your casting skills.  

 

Besides trolling reels, NLW reels have always included tournament distance casting reels, which are choice reels to take to the surf, especially if you enjoy casting these reels over heavy spinning tackle.    

The only time you may miss LW is slowly laying hand level wind when you first load the reel, though this expectant task can be satisfying, as well. 

Especially with braid, even retrieving a 100-yd cast with one one of these doesn't need a lot of attention, because line stacking isn't significant.  The line tends to hunt the spool low spot and level wind itself.  

After the day is done, with either the antique or the new NLW, you can restore hand level wind in your working line using a line winder.  

 

Many people cast their Avet and Seigler lever drag reels all day, both inshore, and offshore jigging (the salt version of drop shot), even though the design is essentially a trolling reel.  No LW, not even a mechanical freespool - you simply relax the main drag all the way to freespool.  The aftermarket reel tuning guys make mag casting brakes you can retrofit even to these.  

400 yds braid under that heavy fluoro working leader has made these big-drag reels very small.  

[Captain Phil]

5 hours ago, Gary_Snyder said:

Some old baitcasters did not even have a levelwind.

William Shakespeare, Jr., invented the level wind.  His patent was issued in 1896.  By the late fifties, all casting reels used for bass fishing had level wind.  Most reels were not free spool, so the handles turned on the cast.  As far as I know, Pflueger made the first affordable free spool casting reels.  The Pflueger Supreme reel was the ultimate bass reel back then.  A new Supreme free spool reel cost over $20, a lot of money to a young boy like me. 

 

 

[Captain Phil]

2 hours ago, Captain Phil said:

William Shakespeare, Jr., invented the level wind.  His patent was issued in 1896.

 

I received a message correcting my statement above.  I am not an expert on fishing reel history.   The Internet contains conflicting information in reference to the patent for a level wind mechanism.  From what I see, there were a number of law suits filed around this issue.  Perhaps someone with greater knowledge would like to chime in?

 

Most larger offshore salt water reels do not use level wind.  Those reels are not used for casting. They are normally used for trolling or with live bait where feeding the line on by hand is not an issue.  Then there is the question of what happens when a level wind mechanism meets a 600 pound marlin.

 

Reels used in bass fishing went through a number of improvements to get to where we are today.  Level wind was one of the first.  Free spool was a great improvement.  I remember casting with the handles spinning around and it was more like throwing rocks than fishing.  Star drags saved a lot of knuckles.  Spool brakes and anti backlash devices cut down on backlashes.  Personally, I believe the greatest innovation in modern casting reels is reduced weight.   There was a time when the Ambassador 5500C was the ultimate bass reel and we couldn't wait to get our hands on one.  Hold one in your left hand and a modern reel in your right and you will see the difference. It's no wonder my old arms and wrists are so beat up.

[bulldog1935]

Quote

 

hi friend, not to take exception, but share with you.  

Here's Shakespeare's 1896 patent

It was soon retired by Marhoff's 1908 patent, using the worm gear and pawl on all modern LW, and also exclusively owned by Shakespeare for the next 20 years.  

 

The 4th model Pflueger Supreme freespool you remember was a dozen years behind Abu's 1948 freespool.  

That design used in all modern reels takes the approach of moving the pinion gear out of drive.  But even Abu's design was an update on the 1918 Douglas patent in the 1st model Pflueger Supreme.  Pflueger retired the inspired Douglas design in 1928 with the 2nd model Supreme, which was a copy of Marhoff's simple LW without freespool.  The 3rd postwar Supreme was also non freespool.  The freespool Supreme that copied Abu and earlier Douglas designs showed up in 1960.  

 

The prewar approach to freespool separated the handle from the main gear, and Pflueger made a series of these simple freespool reels after the war that lasted into the 60s.  

You might like this webpage I googled

https://www.fishingtalks.com/pflueger-free-spool-baitcast-reels-4074.html

 

Regards, 

Ron 

 

Phil, I simply shared with you a photo of Shakespeare's 1896 LW patent, a webpage of alternate freespool design, and up front stated there was no exception with what you posted.  

Unlike this twin-screw LW 1896 patent (here on c. 1909 Shakespeare Model B), Marhoff's 1908 LW patent, also owned exclusively by Shakespeare for the following 20 years, is the worm gear + pawl that we all recognize today.  

 

Pflueger and Shakespeare remained continuously in court over patent infringement claims from 1914 until Shakespeare bought Pflueger in 1962.  

[Captain Phil]

The history of fishing reels is very interesting.  My understanding was most early fishing reels were made by watch makers?  This must have made them very expensive?  Inexpensive tackle allowed common people to enjoy fishing.   When I was a kid, bass fishing was a poor man's sport.  It wasn't until money tournaments took off that things went the other way.  Bass being bass, don't care.  

[OnthePotomac]

I have a 1953 Pflueger SkilKast reel in perfect shape with a worm gear, but no brakes.  So far it just sits on the shelf.

[WRB]

My 1st bait casting reels were Langley 330 Lure Cast and 340 Target. Reels had aluminum drilled light weight spools that held 50 yard of 10 lb Dacron braid line. The 340 weighed 4 oz without a level wind the 330 weighed 4 1/4 oz with a level wind. Both reels easily cast all the 50 yards of line off and needed to tie the line through the spool holes. 

It’s easy manage line without a level wind easier yet with one, just need to keep the pawl and worm gear lubticated.

Tom