Daiwa HVF versus SVF blanks - Is there really a difference???

[shimanoangler]

So, in my pursuit to understand what drives sensitivity in a rod (line aside) this question is one that I would love to get perspective and feedback from others.  Off of Daiwa's marketing material - SVF (Super High Volume Fiber) - Daiwa's exclusive Graphite Construction (SUPER HIGH VOLUME FIBER) combines precise resin control with unidirectional Graphite fiber to produce a blank with maximum graphite density. The blanks are extremely lightweight, powerful and sensitive.  Compared to HVF (High Volume Fiber) - In contrast to normal carbon fiber rods with high resin content in the space between the carbon fibers DAIWA HVF (High Volume Fiber) rods are made of a carbon fiber compound with less resin, called HVF.

 

So, one would expect that HVF blank versus SVF blank of similar blank to be heavier that its counterpart based on Daiwa's own marketing material.  But my own personal test with gear that I own didn't prove that out.  I have a 7' ML Daiwa Cronos with a lure rating of 1/8 to 3/4 that weighs 3.56 oz, compared to the 7'1" M Daiwa Tatula Elite AGS with a lure rating of 1/8 to 1/2 oz, which weighs 4.27 oz.  That is almost 3/4 oz more than its HVF counterpart.  AND the Tat Elite has AGS guides, which are supposed to be incredibly light, and the Cronos has Titanium frames with alconite rings (SIC top).  I guess I was very surprised to see how much less the older "technology" weighed compared to its new technology counterpart.  

 

If the weight of a rod contributes to its sensitivity (believe I have heard that more than once), and the Cronos is lighter than the Tat Elite AGS by a lot, could should one assume that the Cronos would be more sensitive than the Tat Elite with AGS???     

[Michigander]

Unfortunately, I don't think it's easy to figure the blank weight from a finished rod. A longer medium blank is expectedly heavier than a shorter medium light, and the Cronos looks like it has a lot more metal trim bling which is going to add weight as well. You'd be better off comparing weights between the same length/power rods. I don't think the guide train weight difference is going to be more than a gram or two. You also don't know if any weight was added to the butt section for balance purposes.

[shimanoangler]

10 minutes ago, Michigander said:

Unfortunately, I don't think it's easy to figure the blank weight from a finished rod. A longer medium blank is expectedly heavier than a shorter medium light, and the Cronos looks like it has a lot more metal trim bling which is going to add weight as well. You'd be better off comparing weights between the same length/power rods. I don't think the guide train weight difference is going to be more than a gram or two. You also don't know if any weight was added to the butt section for balance purposes.

It is the overall weight of the rod and all of its components that matters when it comes to sensitivity, right?  If that is the case, with everything the Cronos has on it, albeit 1" short than the Tat Elite AGS, but rated a full quarter ounce more capable from a lure rating standpoint, the Cronos is almost a full 3/4 of an ounce lighter as a package than its supposed more expensive and technologically enhanced counterpart, the Tatula Elite AGS Drop Shot rod..... 

 

The Shimano Expride 7' med power fast action spinning rod, considered by most to be one of the lightest and most sensitive rods $$ for $$, weighs in at 3.74 oz (worth noting the prior owner added a wire hook keeper on this rod, or it would be lighter in its OEM form factor).  The anniversary edition Cronos, 7'3" med power xf action, HVF blank, titanium alconite guides, weighs in at 4.20 oz (with an aftermarket hook keeper on it), which still less than the Tat Elite AGS and it is 2" longer.  The Alpha Angler Wrench, 7' med power fast action, weigh in at 3.84 oz.  

 

The real point is that if the notion is that the lighter the stick, the more sensitive it is, I am curious if one could make the leap that the rods listed above that are all lighter than the Tat Elite AGS, are indeed more sensitive given that they are lighter??

 

 

[WRB]

Resin and scrim weighs more the carbon fiber. The issue is regaining flexibility without becoming brittle. 3M Nano resin was a big break through keeping rods light, strong and flexible. It’s the components added to the blank that significantly increase the overall rod weight.

Sensitive is subject.

Tom

 

[Michigander]

Weight can't be the only factor, my most sensitive rod is a 7'5" Heavy Flip TFO Tactical Elite. It totally steps on the neck of my other rods as far as what I can feel and it's clocking in at 4.7oz. I didn't know rods could be that sensitive so it sent me spiraling down a similar path as you in this regard, lol. On the other end of the spectrum, my panfish rod barely weighs anything at all and sensitivity on that rod is marginal at best. So if weight was the only factor, then my other $200 rods would automatically be more sensitive because they are lighter than my TFO. However, this is not the case.

[shimanoangler]

2 hours ago, WRB said:

Resin and scrim weighs more the carbon fiber. The issue is regaining flexibility without becoming brittle. 3M Nano resin was a big break through keeping rods light, strong and flexible. It’s the components added to the blank that significantly increase the overall rod weight.

Sensitive is subject.

Tom

 

Tom,

 

When you say sensitivity is subjective, it's quantifiable right???   There has to be a measurable, objective here, right??   When you hear people say the NRX sets the bar in sensitivity that can't be all subjective, can it ??

[WRB]

To quantify something there must be a test method and procedure to repeat the results. 

NRX rod technology isn’t new or light weight compared to rod blanks being made today. Prior to NRX the “gold” standard was Loomis GLX 844C, that vintage rod today wouldn’t considered state of the art. 

Price seems to sway judgement about how sensitive a jig & worm rod feels to the buyer.

I remember picking up a Aaron Martens rod during the time period GLX was considered the most sensitive and Aaron’s rod was lighter and felt great, he said it’s from my new sponsor in Japan costing $500 in the late 90’s if I wanted it.

Never fished Aaron rods but it felt good. How sensitive? More sensitive in Aaron’s hands then mine!

Tom

PS, Aaron rods were prototype Megabass before we new about that brand.

[jimmyjoe]

4 hours ago, shimanoangler said:

When you say sensitivity is subjective, it's quantifiable right???   There has to be a measurable, objective here, right?? 

 

  NO. Subjective is not the same as objective.

 

Weight alone doesn't explain the difference between two blanks. Taper, tip construction, tape wrap density, modulus and angle, butt weight and over-all balance all have their contributions.

   However: the biggest contribution is something that is a two-edged sword. The ability of a blank to transfer vibration is, with all other things equal, what gives a fisherman  "feel", or sensitivity. Normally speaking, that means that the blank doesn't damp down the vibration, but passes it on to the fisherman's hands. Like I said, this is with all other things being equal. The wrong guides or the wrong handle (like one that is "more comfortable") can damp (kill) the vibrations.

   The other side of that two-edged sword is simple; the less damping you build into a shaft, the more brittle it is and the more unpredictable the breakage will be under impact. One good hit against an object with a rod like that will produce cracks .... and eventual shattering. Limbs, rocks, motor cover .... it makes no difference.

   Believe me, I know.   ???

   This little article doesn't explain everything, but it gives you a fairly good idea of the various things that go into the "recipe" for a manufacturer.

https://blogdotfredscustomtackledotcom.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/what-is-im6-im7-im8-graphite-ratings/

 

   Hope this helps.      jj

  

  

[shimanoangler]

Great feedback.  This is such an interesting topic and I believe that sensitivity is somewhere between your ears (as Tom would suggest) and an exact science (as Tom also suggests there is no measure).  I recognize that there is some subjectivity to how a rod feels or which rod is the most sensitive, but there has to be a formula that one can follow to understand the combination of variables that make one rod more sensitive than another, right??  I mean an angler must be able to walk up to a rack of rods and based on certain specs can identify a rod that is more sensitive than others on the rack, right?  

[Dirtyeggroll]

all you need to know.

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