Wheeler

[DitchPanda]

2 minutes ago, ajschn06 said:

Well said

Sorry that was a rant but this deal gets me fired up. One thing I can't stand is liars. Cheaters fall into that category. The only thing I hate worse is people who lie saying someone else is a liar with no proof. Pretty pathetic to tarnish somebody else's image for no reason other than jealousy and disappointment in yourself.

[12poundbass]

If Wheeler were (and it’s a big if) getting preferential treatment I’d venture to guess he’s none the wiser to it and the preferential treatment would fall on the TD, not Jacob Wheeler. 
 

[ajschn06]

11 minutes ago, DitchPanda said:

Sorry that was a rant but this deal gets me fired up. One thing I can't stand is liars. Cheaters fall into that category. The only thing I hate worse is people who lie saying someone else is a liar with no proof. Pretty pathetic to tarnish somebody else's image for no reason other than jealousy and disappointment in yourself.

All good man- and the exact opinion I was looking for when I started the thread.  I’ve watch wheelers YouTube videos a lot and love how engaging he is and willing to share info with fans.  It suprised me to read about this and see so many people say “Oh yep, that’s Wheeler.  Always trying to skirt the rules awful for the sport yadda yadda” but that’s on Facebook which is trash.  I was interested to hear the opinion of the knowledgeable folks here, many of whom have done some hardcoretourney  fishing..

[12poundbass]

20 minutes ago, ajschn06 said:

I was interested to hear the opinion of the knowledgeable folks

I’m out then! Lol

[RichF]

2 hours ago, 12poundbass said:

I would totally disagree with Mercer on this statement. He’s not living in the gray area. The rules are clearly written so there is no gray area. If they want to add rules as they go along to avoid these instances where someone takes advantage of the rules then by all means go ahead, but I think that’s a slippery slope for sure, which I’m guessing is why nothing has been changed or modified. 

I would normally agree here but the fact that so few anglers knew about this rule makes me think that maybe they (the rules) are not as clear as they need to be.  Anyone that knows anything about tournament fishing (and I know you do based off your posts) knows that "gray area" is an understatement!  There's some gray in almost every aspect of competitive bass fishing lol.   

[12poundbass]

14 minutes ago, RichF said:

I would normally agree here but the fact that so few anglers knew about this rule makes me think that maybe they (the rules) are not as clear as they need to be.  Anyone that knows anything about tournament fishing (and I know you do based off your posts) knows that "gray area" is an understatement!  There's some gray in almost every aspect of competitive bass fishing lol.   

I’m not a tournament angler I just follow professional bass fishing, so is it possible that Wheeler is super anal and has read the tournament rules front to back numerous times and knows them by heart and sees potential opportunities and asks ‘what if’? 
 

For the record I’d be the complete opposite. Lol 

[RichF]

2 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Dude notices things nobody else does and he capitalizes on them...just because he's a smarter more in tune angler doesn't make him a cheater.

I don't think this is necessarily true.  Things aren't that simple in competitive bass fishing, especially at this level.  The handful of guys at the very top, like Wheeler have a huge advantage that others just don't.  Wheeler has incredible backing, not just from sponsors, but from family and friends.  That allows him the opportunity to put in an INCREDIBLE amount of time in on tournament waters every year.  Very few anglers have that.  How many anglers out there would be able to pull the wrap off their tournament boat to fish a tournament incognito, like he did this year at Chickamauga?  Not only would they be out the couple grand for the wrap (which, to some guys on tour, is incredibly substantial), but would their sponsors even allow it?  The "no-name" pros at the bottom of the Elite/FLW/MLF/BPT food might not get that kind of OK from all the sponsors that pay him/her to have their name on his/her boat, at a huge pro tournament, where they'd get the most exposure for their brand.

 

It's easy for everyday anglers to look at the Wheelers, VanDams, (insert giant name here), and think: "wow these guys are leaps and bounds better than all the rest."  While that's true in some cases, in others, it's not.  Just think about a hot new stick coming in to fish the tour against KVD and Kentucky Lake is on the schedule.  He could graph 12hrs a day for the entire year and not get the kind of info that KVD has gotten over his 30 year career.  Let's also not forgot that the "no info" rule has only been in effect for a few years so who knows how much "outside" info the kings of the sport have gotten in the decades before now.  It's not like they relinquished all of it when the rules changed, to "even out the playing field."

 

Again, I'm not a fan of Wheeler, but the dude works hard, and I respect that.  Whether or not he's skirting around rules, I have no idea.  I wouldn't be confident enough to toss out a hard "no he's not," but that opinion isn't Wheeler-specific.  

8 minutes ago, 12poundbass said:

I’m not a tournament angler I just follow professional bass fishing, so is it possible that Wheeler is super anal and has read the tournament rules front to back numerous times and knows them by heart and sees potential opportunities and asks ‘what if’? 
 

For the record I’d be the complete opposite. Lol 

This is absolutely possible and all anglers should!  And yeah...me too haha

[Captain Phil]

I don't know this guy.  Rules are rules.  However, some rules may be interpreted in different ways. Fishing in the gray areas of the rules does not make you a cheater.   Professional sports are full of people who bend the rules to use them to their advantage.  Bill Belichick and Smokey Yunick  were good examples. I remember a bass tournament on the Kissimmee Chain years ago.  Before the tournament, one angler cleared out a canal to a tiny lake off the main lake. He had to use a chain saw to get the job done.  A big cold front came through and that angler was able to fish that lake when others thought it was closed off.   He was protested because some thought he had gotten out of his boat during the tournament.  The rules committee allowed the win to stand.  Many participants thought he had cheated.

[DitchPanda]

36 minutes ago, RichF said:

I don't think this is necessarily true.  Things aren't that simple in competitive bass fishing, especially at this level.  The handful of guys at the very top, like Wheeler have a huge advantage that others just don't.  Wheeler has incredible backing, not just from sponsors, but from family and friends.  That allows him the opportunity to put in an INCREDIBLE amount of time in on tournament waters every year.  Very few anglers have that.  How many anglers out there would be able to pull the wrap off their tournament boat to fish a tournament incognito, like he did this year at Chickamauga?  Not only would they be out the couple grand for the wrap (which, to some guys on tour, is incredibly substantial), but would their sponsors even allow it?  The "no-name" pros at the bottom of the Elite/FLW/MLF/BPT food might not get that kind of OK from all the sponsors that pay him/her to have their name on his/her boat, at a huge pro tournament, where they'd get the most exposure for their brand.

 

It's easy for everyday anglers to look at the Wheelers, VanDams, (insert giant name here), and think: "wow these guys are leaps and bounds better than all the rest."  While that's true in some cases, in others, it's not.  Just think about a hot new stick coming in to fish the tour against KVD and Kentucky Lake is on the schedule.  He could graph 12hrs a day for the entire year and not get the kind of info that KVD has gotten over his 30 year career.  Let's also not forgot that the "no info" rule has only been in effect for a few years so who knows how much "outside" info the kings of the sport have gotten in the decades before now.  It's not like they relinquished all of it when the rules changed, to "even out the playing field."

 

Again, I'm not a fan of Wheeler, but the dude works hard, and I respect that.  Whether or not he's skirting around rules, I have no idea.  I wouldn't be confident enough to toss out a hard "no he's not," but that opinion isn't Wheeler-specific.  

This is absolutely possible and all anglers should!  And yeah...me too haha

If you think he's the only elite level angler that has the time,money and support to spend the time needed to get to that level your wrong. How many guys at that upper level are working 9-5 day jobs to make ends meet? I'd wager not many. The other thing I think people aren't mentioning is that winning isn't new to Wheeler now that he has the huge sponsors and money. He won the Forrest wood cup at 21 and an Elite Series event at 23...he's been special. The reason he is able to disguise himself and pull his wrap off is because of his name but he earned that through winning. You can't say its unfair to the other guys because its not like he finishes in the bottom of the field but still gets "preferential" treatment because he's a cool guy and friends with all the tournament directors. It's because of his performance that he now has financial freedom to take some chances and roll the dice. To suggest that he isn't ahead of most anglers in terms of ability is just being disingenuous.

What's funny to me about this is nobody is mentioning John Cox. Also a very young extremely successful angler probably on par with Jacob. He did an interview recently where he said next year he may fish multiple circuits because he qualified for everything. So he obviously has the money and time to spend more time dedicated to tourney fishing than basically anybody else so is that in some way unfair? No..he has the money and the skill to get there so its on the other guys to up there game. But in regards to both anglers to suggest there isn't a gap in ability between them and other guys is crazy. They didn't always have this fame and money so something made them win more then everybody even when they were just another angler.

[Team9nine]

 

A pretty good take by someone close enough to know...

[12poundbass]

5 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

What's funny to me about this is nobody is mentioning John Cox

John Cox is in his own world, that’s for sure. As far as I can tell Wheeler isn’t pimping any electronic sponsorship as he’s running all three major brand. John Cox still runs a Fortrex and tiny (compared to everyone else) graphs. 
 

While Wheeler supports his sponsors (as he should) John Cox does his own thing by supporting his cause with his tournament finishes. 
 

These two guys are arguably number 1 and number 2 in the world when it comes to professional bass fishing yet have two totally different approaches to the game that is professional bass fishing. 

[scaleface]

9 hours ago, Team9nine said:

 

A pretty good take by someone close enough to know...

Mercer reminds me of Captain Spaulding .

[DitchPanda]

2 hours ago, scaleface said:

Mercer reminds me of Captain Spaulding .

Oh my god...I just said that about Frank Talley the guy who won the elite at guntersville a few months back.

[BassNJake]

On 12/11/2020 at 2:03 PM, DitchPanda said:

Still don't like it? Well go get a regular job..take your ball and go home.

Shout out to Randy Haynes !!

[DitchPanda]

22 minutes ago, BassNJake said:

Shout out to Randy Haynes !!

Whoa...too soon?

[BassNJake]

22 hours ago, RichF said:

I would normally agree here but the fact that so few anglers knew about this rule makes me think that maybe they (the rules) are not as clear as they need to be.  Anyone that knows anything about tournament fishing (and I know you do based off your posts) knows that "gray area" is an understatement!  There's some gray in almost every aspect of competitive bass fishing lol.   

 

This is because at any place of employment, there are people that are better at their jobs than others.

Usually, they are the people who are putting in more effort or have found a way to be more efficient when they do whatever the task may be.

 

Coincidently, there will also be people at most any place of employment talking about how the person/s at the top doesn't deserve to be there or how they lied, cheated, stole and/or slept with the boss to get there.

 

Wheeler is one of the best because of all the work he has and is putting in.

His understanding of his electronics is at the highest level and that come with putting the time in on the water.

 

[ajschn06]

The no info thing is one that is annoying to me...

[BassNJake]

On 12/11/2020 at 11:04 PM, 12poundbass said:

John Cox is in his own world, that’s for sure. As far as I can tell Wheeler isn’t pimping any electronic sponsorship as he’s running all three major brand. John Cox still runs a Fortrex and tiny (compared to everyone else) graphs. 
 

While Wheeler supports his sponsors (as he should) John Cox does his own thing by supporting his cause with his tournament finishes. 
 

These two guys are arguably number 1 and number 2 in the world when it comes to professional bass fishing yet have two totally different approaches to the game that is professional bass fishing. 

A few years ago John Cox fished the entire FLW season without using a fish finder.

( I believe he had a unit but only used it for navigational purposes)

He said he was getting away from his strengths and his results showed

I'm pretty sure he lost the AOY title to Andy Morgan in the last event, so he still did pretty well 

 

Jordan Lee's story is similar to Wheelers, where they would get dropped off at the lake because they were too young to go on their own. They both said all they ever wanted to do was fish, they were both dedicated, invested a bunch of time early on and their respective families were there to help them reach their goals. Sounds like the American dream to me

[GReb]

7 hours ago, BassNJake said:

A few years ago John Cox fished the entire FLW season without using a fish finder.

( I believe he had a unit but only used it for navigational purposes)

He said he was getting away from his strengths and his results showed

I'm pretty sure he lost the AOY title to Andy Morgan in the last event, so he still did pretty well 

 

Jordan Lee's story is similar to Wheelers, where they would get dropped off at the lake because they were too young to go on their own. They both said all they ever wanted to do was fish, they were both dedicated, invested a bunch of time early on and their respective families were there to help them reach their goals. Sounds like the American dream to me

I believe @WRB said the same about Martens

[lo n slo]

On 12/15/2020 at 2:49 PM, BassNJake said:

A few years ago John Cox fished the entire FLW season without using a fish finder.

( I believe he had a unit but only used it for navigational purposes)

that is so awesome

[WRB]

21 hours ago, GReb said:

I believe @WRB said the same about Martens

Family support yes, not using sonar no!

It may appear some anglers get favored treatment but I don’t see that happening today. Aaron was DQ’d in a Classic event for forgetting to check in with starting boat and would have won the event.

Back in the day anglers shared the boat operating time as separate competitors in 1 boat. A coin toss was usually used to determine who was 1st up front. Lot of debates was solved by the TD.

My 1st event I was a non boater drawn by a boater as his partner. The event meeting clearly discussed the shared time rule and I asked the boater if he wanted to do the coin toss. He sad no it was his boat. The TD settled the debate and I won the toss choosing the morning. My partner fumed all day and I caught a good limit during my time. The boater ran back to the marina and claimed I was unsportsmanlike like preventing him from fishing in the morning. My fish were in a deep underwater point about 200 yards off shore. I was DQ’d under the unsportsmanlike like behavior. Some rules are not always written. 

In hindsight I should have chosen the afternoon.

Tom

 

[ajschn06]

2 hours ago, WRB said:

Family support yes, not using sonar no!

It may appear some anglers get favored treatment but I don’t see that happening today. Aaron was DQ’d in a Classic event for forgetting to check in with starting boat and would have won the event.

Back in the day anglers shared the boat operating time as separate competitors in 1 boat. A coin toss was usually used to determine who was 1st up front. Lot of debates was solved by the TD.

My 1st event I was a non boater drawn by a boater as his partner. The event meeting clearly discussed the shared time rule and I asked the boater if he wanted to do the coin toss. He sad no it was his boat. The TD settled the debate and I won the toss choosing the morning. My partner fumed all day and I caught a good limit during my time. The boater ran back to the marina and claimed I was unsportsmanlike like preventing him from fishing in the morning. My fish were in a deep underwater point about 200 yards off shore. I was DQ’d under the unsportsmanlike like behavior. Some rules are not always written. 

In hindsight I should have chosen the afternoon.

Tom

 

Sounds like someone who deserves a nice sock to the nose 

[RichF]

After going back through these posts there are a few things that stick out...First off...does nobody think viewing a map of a lake on the schedule with a guide before the tournament is against the no info rule??  Second, I'm pretty sure Wheeler had a reputation back in his FLW days so this isn't anything new.  I know people say "the most successful have a target on their back," which can definitely be true, but I can't think of any other giant names in the sport getting the same accusations regularly thrown at them. 

 

And let me reiterate, because I'm sure I'll get labeled a "hater"...my opinions are, again, not Wheeler-specific.  

 

On 12/11/2020 at 5:31 PM, DitchPanda said:

How many guys at that upper level are working 9-5 day jobs to make ends meet?

You don't have to look very hard to find numerous examples of Elite level pros saying outright, that they aren't making much money.  The top 1% is raking it in, the rest, not so much.  

 

On 12/11/2020 at 5:31 PM, DitchPanda said:

The other thing I think people aren't mentioning is that winning isn't new to Wheeler now that he has the huge sponsors and money.

The accusations aren't new either.  He had a reputation during his time in the FLW as well.

 

On 12/11/2020 at 5:31 PM, DitchPanda said:

You can't say its unfair to the other guys because its not like he finishes in the bottom of the field but still gets "preferential" treatment because he's a cool guy and friends with all the tournament directors.

This may not have been directed at me but I didn't say anything about him receiving preferential treatment from TD's. 

 

On 12/11/2020 at 5:31 PM, DitchPanda said:

What's funny to me about this is nobody is mentioning John Cox.

John Cox didn't get mentioned because he doesn't (at least to my knowledge) get the accusations thrown at him like Wheeler does.

 

On 12/11/2020 at 5:31 PM, DitchPanda said:

But in regards to both anglers to suggest there isn't a gap in ability between them and other guys is crazy.

I didn't say that there isn't, just that it's not always that cut and dry.  There are so many factors that go into winning in pro bass fishing, not just casting ability, proficiency with electronics, etc.  

[DitchPanda]

23 minutes ago, RichF said:

After going back through these posts there are a few things that stick out...First off...does nobody think viewing a map of a lake on the schedule with a guide before the tournament is against the no info rule??  Second, I'm pretty sure Wheeler had a reputation back in his FLW days so this isn't anything new.  I know people say "the most successful have a target on their back," which can definitely be true, but I can't think of any other giant names in the sport getting the same accusations regularly thrown at them. 

 

And let me reiterate, because I'm sure I'll get labeled a "hater"...my opinions are, again, not Wheeler-specific.  

 

You don't have to look very hard to find numerous examples of Elite level pros saying outright, that they aren't making much money.  The top 1% is raking it in, the rest, not so much.  

 

The accusations aren't new either.  He had a reputation during his time in the FLW as well.

 

This may not have been directed at me but I didn't say anything about him receiving preferential treatment from TD's. 

 

John Cox didn't get mentioned because he doesn't (at least to my knowledge) get the accusations thrown at him like Wheeler does.

 

I didn't say that there isn't, just that it's not always that cut and dry.  There are so many factors that go into winning in pro bass fishing, not just casting ability, proficiency with electronics, etc.  

Well since you sent this my way yes of course I think viewing a map with a guide is against the no info rule..but since I haven't seen the proof of this I can't say it happened. What's funny to me is these elite guys that aren't doing well still have a 100k boat and 70k truck. If they are indeed earning that money from another job maybe they should hold off upgrading every year so they can save some money quit there job for a year go all in and become better tournament anglers. Another thing is Wheeler gets accused of cheating but on at least one occasion he called himself in on a rules violation. Yep...sounds like a cheater to me.

Here's the thing about a reputation its just as often not earned as it is earned. Maybe Wheeler is cheating and just hasn't been actually caught and punished for it. Or maybe just maybe he ticked somebody off and that guy started saying he was a cheater and a bunch of guys that are tired of him taking there money bought into it. I can't definitively say he isn't cheating but I also can't say he is. Its innocent until proven guilty not the other way around.

[RichF]

15 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Well since you sent this my way yes of course I think viewing a map with a guide is against the no info rule..but since I haven't seen the proof of this I can't say it happened.

This one wasn't meant specifically for you. I totally get your point though.  I, however, was shown the photo by another Elite Series angler so I have a different opinion, that's all.

 

15 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

What's funny to me is these elite guys that aren't doing well still have a 100k boat and 70k truck.

Yes, this is true.  I believe the vast majority of Elite level pros have a boat deal, but those deals aren't always created equal.  For example, I was paired with Ish on the final day of the BASS Open he won on Oneida Lake back in '11 and he told me his boat deal with Ranger was pretty sweet.  They gave him 2 boats at the start of the year, one of which he would sell outright to essentially fund most of his year on tour.  Ish is in that top 1% of anglers and I highly doubt the lesser names have deals like that.  A lot of guys will get the boat up front but HAVE to sell it at the end of the season or they're on the hook for it.

 

15 hours ago, DitchPanda said:

Wheeler gets accused of cheating but on at least one occasion he called himself in on a rules violation. Yep...sounds like a cheater to me.

To be fair, you can't really get away with too many infractions on the water when you have a marshal, co-angler, or cameraman with you.  

 

Again, I'm not trying to accuse anyone of anything.  I'm just sharing things that I've seen/heard while trying to put forth a different perspective on pro bass fishing that I don't believe a lot of fans of the sport think about.