You guys like the old stuff?

[Backroad Angler]

15 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

Howdy neighbor. 

My buddy cane rod builder Floyd Burkett is your neighbor.  

Floyd makes everything 100% from butt cap to tip top, mesquite reel seat and rod tube, and has machined reel repair parts for me, for OP's valuable antique reels.  

He built me the rod above as an even swap for a Pflueger Hawkeye - nice reel, but I got the good end of that trade. 

Hey thats pretty neat! Might have to check him out!

[bulldog1935]

On 1/5/2021 at 12:07 AM, Paul Roberts said:

Fish it! No worries at all. It won't break. It's not a toy. They are quality reels. Totally understandable what Bankbeater is saying though. We all have to decide when and what tackle should be retired. Over time, parts may wear out. But these older reels tend to hang together. And there are still parts available, if needed, from the 'keepers of the faith'/old reels fraternity.

 

However, do NOT put mono on it. Some of the older spools -esp Langley's light aluminum spools- could separate from the pressure of stretchy mono. Mono didn't exist when these reels were made.

 

Recommendations are for braided nylon, which has less stretch than monos, and is about the same diameter. Search "Mason Legend braided nylon". It's inexpensive, ~$4 for 50yrds, which is enough. I use some backing to take up space, such as braided nylon or dacron (NOT mono) and fill with 50yrds of Legend. Langley spools are fairly shallow to begin with. Maybe get 50yrds of 20lb for backing and 50yrds of 10 or 12lb for fishing. Lighter lines cast better.

 

Suggestions are to avoid modern PE braids bc they are so thin they are tougher to pick backlashes out. They also have no stretch at all and are so strong they could damage an old aluminum spooled reel. I will be experimenting with these on my old reels and expect I can make them work. These old reels do not have an anti-reverse so there's no reason that that spool will be taking the full pressure of a 30 or 50lb braid. Remains to be seen.

 

You'll want to take the reel apart and clean out all the old lube, which has almost certainly stiffened by now. As bulldog mentioned, these are mechanically simple reels, but made with quality materials. So they are simple to take apart and put back together. I'd suggest taking some photos at certain places so you can refer to them if you forget the proper order parts go. Use Dawn dishwashing soap and a tooth brush, put on some tunes, and have at it. Since these reels do not freespool, having smooth running gears is important. Do NOT overlube. Touch of grease on gear teeth (just enough to make them glisten), light oil on spindles, like the ends of the spool shafts and ends of the levelwind worm gear. Get one cleaned up and you'll be surprised how well it casts.

 

Now, what to expect for fishing. Again, it won't break. Set your tension controls, on either side of the spool shafts by tightening down until there is no side to side spool flop. Then back off a bit on each until you get the slightest 'click' of lateral spool movement. Spin the handle and see how well it spins. Some reels like it a little tighter, some a bit looser. Keep your thumb on the spool at all times during the cast and retrieve. Remember there is no anti-reverse, and no drag to speak of. Now, your reel has a "Cub Handle" -and early drag- that's been added (a Pflueger invention). It works as a drag by tightening the screws on the Cub disc. Once set they can't be adjusted on the fly, so set it light and still rely on your thumb.

 

These reels tend to do best with lure weights of 3/8oz up. 1/2oz is a good starting practice weight. Some of my reels, esp my Langley's, can cast 1/4oz better than most, due to their lightweight spool. But, line diameter matters here. If you want to fish 1/4oz, I'd use 10lb and expect to fish fairly short, ~50ft or so. All my old reels will chuck a 1/2oz weight 100ft without much trouble. That's plenty for a lot of fishing.

 

Definitely do some yard practice so you are familiar with casting and keeping your thumb on the spool both for casting and for hook-setting and fighting fish. Bass aren't major runners so there's no issues of burned thumbs.

 

If there is a down-side to these beautiful old reels for fishing, it's retrieve speed. These reels are slow. They are not going to burn a lipless or spinnerbait. They will work well for jigs, soft plastics, crankbaits, jerks, esp at shorter ranges (owing, again, to retrieve speed).

 

Hope this helps. Once used to handling these old reels I think you'll find they are more capable than you'd think. No, it should not sit on a shelf. Find a technique you like to use it for -it would make a great Senko reel- and put that beautiful old machine back to work!

 

Tom, that's a Langley "LakeCast" 350. I don't own one, but I do have a 310 (StreamLite) and 330 (LureCast). I believe all Langley's have the lightweight perforated aluminum spool, making them good and well behaved casters. I remember that you had a 340 (Target) tournament reel. Maybe you can add, correct, or offer a different opinion to mine.

Pulled this over from the Langley thread, because @Paul Roberts has a very good thumb discussion.  

Most all salt reels back in Zane Grey's and Hemingway's day had nothing but thumb and clicker to stop fish.  Very typical on squidding reels of the day was adding a leather thumb pad to the frame pillar

Showing my salty display shelf - three of the reels have this thumb pad, including Pflueger Beacon, Norka (Akron spelled backwards), and Oceanic.  

The Beacon is direct drive multiplier, the Oceanic freespool, and the Norka freespool LW.  

The Oceanic also has an aftermarket Williams friction drag handle, which lets you add more by holding the handle still - very comparable to a modern washer disc drag, including the star, but without anti-reverse.  

Noteworthy, offshore cane rods also had both top and bottom guide sets, allowing you to reverse the rod blade to reverse the fishing set.  I have an H-I that matches the Oceanic, but I've never spooled the reel from the connected cuttyhunk spools (far left in my shelf photo).  

 

Speaking of displays, Zane Grey's tackle room

[Paul Roberts]

49 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

Pulled this over from the Langley thread, because @Paul Roberts has a very good thumb discussion.  

Most all salt reels back in Zane Grey's and Hemingway's day had nothing but thumb and clicker to stop fish.  Very typical on squidding reels of the day was adding a leather thumb pad to the frame pillar

...

Speaking of displays, Zane Grey's tackle room

I've thought about ways of making a leather thumb pad, just for creativity's sake. Not that I'll actually need one for my bass fishing.

 

Fishing: Where obsession is come by honestly!

[bulldog1935]

here's a very simple idea added to the reel seat hood:  

https://surfcastproshop.com/shop/ols/products/spool-stop-grips

These tournament guys are making 300' to 500' casts with big lead (record casters double that).  

 

The other choice is put a piece of bicycle inner tube over your thumb, which I use for initially spooling NLW reels (modern reels and modern lines)

[Paul Roberts]

I see now. I wondered what that was on your thumb. Is that to help guide the line easily? I would think that soft rubber wouldn't work so well for burn protection? If it heats up it wouldn't feel too good for your thumb, or your line. Just academic at this point; No tuna where I fish, although there can be some pretty big Wiper.

[bulldog1935]

A rubber "thumb glove" is not going to help with a tuna on an antique reel, but would be plenty for Spanish mackerel or big bass.  

The bicycle inner tube is used by most all tournament casters.  

Installing line, I always run it through a phone book with weight on top to tension the line (moving the steel wedge around lets me dial the tension).  

A proper hand level-wind is a tight intimate line lay in one direction across the spool, and a wider, quicker lay across the opposite direction.  

Pushing down with your thumb helps get the close line lay, and lifting with your index finger gets the wide line lay.  That thumb part has a lot of friction of skinny line on your thumb, especially for 300-400 yds.  The nicest thing about the phone book line tension, you can walk away and take a break.  

 

[Eric 26]

This thread has reminded me that I’ve had/have some fishing gear in the garage for the last 14 plus years. Just put in in my climate controlled basement about 2 hours ago and realized how cool some of it is. I was told it is not worth anything but sentimental value but that was probably 20 years ago when I first received it. If anyone could point me in the right direction for restoring/ learning more in the southwest suburbs of Chicago Illinois I would love to hear about them. Meanwhile I will look into ORCA.

This thread has reminded me that I’ve had/have some fishing gear in the garage for the last 14 plus years. Just put in in my climate controlled basement about 2 hours ago and realized how cool some of it is. I was told it is not worth anything but sentimental value but that was probably 20 years ago when I first received it. If anyone could point me in the right direction for restoring/ learning more in the southwest suburbs of Chicago Illinois I would love to hear about them. Meanwhile I will look into ORCA.

Sorry didn’t mean to double up on comments. I don’t plan on fishing the reels but would like them cleaned up so I can display them for myself and get some history on them. Again cannot say enough I’m truly enjoying this particular thread and this site?

[Paul Roberts]

The top reel is a Pflueger Supreme, Pflueger's top of the line casting reel. They tend to fetch a higher price than many other vintage casting reels. They have the reputation of being bullet-proof, but, I have one that wasn't.  Might find parts and repair it someday. Your looks as though it's in nice shape!

 

The other casting reel you have is a South Bend, not sure of model (350 perhaps?), could be a Perfectoreno. It could use some work, and appears to be missing the AB (anti-backlash) bail South Bend held a patent for. That AB system actually works. But, it's not needed to cast, with an educated thumb. Also, the "forked" line guide I think is newer than this 1951 version shows below (E). Same basic reel though.

On 12/13/2020 at 5:34 AM, bulldog1935 said:

Here's a page from the 1951 Ward's catalog. And yes, they didn't carry Supreme or Medalist because of their blue collar market.  

 

 

Cool old St Croix glass rod too, although I'm a bit pickier about rods for fishing than I am about reels.

 

Lotsa expertise out there. Search your reels and stuff will pop up.

 

Fun!

[Paul Roberts]

I sure can be a pig for punishment. I bought a Pflueger Supreme 1576 "Leaping Bass" described as "excellent working order". It wasn't, and needed parts including a levelwind gear. I decided to return it and find another. But the seller apologized and simply gave it to me. Hmmmm... what am I getting myself into?

 

So, I found a very bad looking 1576 that had obviously sat around -in a barn- for... who knows how long. But, from the photos, it looked as though the levelwind gear was intact. It was $10 including shipping.

 

When it arrived, I couldn't resist finding out just what was left of this old neglected Pflueger. So, I took it down to it's skivvy's and put it back together. And it works! All of it! Ugly, finish gone, pitted, but it works, is quiet and spins very well! Only thing not working is the anti-reverse due a to a tiny broken spring -an issue with a reel with drag. Oh, and the handle is toast too. But I have both parts in the other reel.

 

Now... Do I make one good looking reel out of the two? I actually think it's kind of cool that this old funky looking one has been brought back to life. Kind of a shame to have it sit in a parts box. I'm tempted to find yet another parts reel. But, I can see where this will likely be headed. 

 

Fresh from... the barn.

 

Oh... yuck!

 

Bath time!

 

It... actually works!

[bulldog1935]

9 hours ago, Paul Roberts said:

...Now... Do I make one good looking reel out of the two? I actually think it's kind of cool that this old funky looking one has been brought back to life. Kind of a shame to have it sit in a parts box. I'm tempted to find yet another parts reel. But, I can see where this will likely be headed. 

 

Fresh from... the barn.

 

Oh... yuck!

 

Bath time!

 

It... actually works!

Paul, at some point, you may want to establish standards for yourself because, all too soon, space in your collection is the coveted item.  Mine was never buy an item others would not line up to buy from me, with a couple other caveats.  Then your time and labor is also rewarded -

- here's that 1918 Douglas patent freespool + anti-reverse - winding backwards, the yoke lifts the pinion gear from both the spool and main gear - note there's a clutch in the main shaft collar 

and the delicate casting-brake spring, which this reel has in place of a clicker

You've definitely done the right thing making contacts on ORCA, and already reaped some benefits, both knowledge base and gracious gestures (at least partly driven by making space).  Neither your nor I probably have a goal of winning a display medal at a national meet, but all of those guys have long passed an acumen of buying and selling well.  

 

For those who may want to know the kind of things to look for, probably the best example I can throw up is the Pflueger Summit.  My '51 Ward's catalog that Paul quoted on this page shows the postwar version, model 1993L, and you see a lot of those out there sold as "engraved Pflueger"

Here's the one you can potentially make a profit - this is the prewar version, c. 1928.  Rather than nickel-plated brass, it's nickel-silver, has all the patent marks, and is engraved - note the details on the end plates.  It's also the amber handle knobs that give it away.  

 

 

On 1/7/2021 at 5:31 PM, Eric 26 said:

This thread has reminded me that I’ve had/have some fishing gear in the garage for the last 14 plus years. Just put in in my climate controlled basement about 2 hours ago and realized how cool some of it is. I was told it is not worth anything but sentimental value but that was probably 20 years ago when I first received it. If anyone could point me in the right direction for restoring/ learning more in the southwest suburbs of Chicago Illinois I would love to hear about them. Meanwhile I will look into ORCA.

This thread has reminded me that I’ve had/have some fishing gear in the garage for the last 14 plus years. Just put in in my climate controlled basement about 2 hours ago and realized how cool some of it is. I was told it is not worth anything but sentimental value but that was probably 20 years ago when I first received it. If anyone could point me in the right direction for restoring/ learning more in the southwest suburbs of Chicago Illinois I would love to hear about them. Meanwhile I will look into ORCA.

Sorry didn’t mean to double up on comments. I don’t plan on fishing the reels but would like them cleaned up so I can display them for myself and get some history on them. Again cannot say enough I’m truly enjoying this particular thread and this site?

Eric, the place you might want to begin is NFLCC

https://nflcc.org/upcoming-shows/

ORCA is kind of a spin-off of the larger organization, and with a membership overlap that makes them almost a subset of NFLCC. 

For the fly reels, you'll find more history and interest on fiberglassflyrodders and classicflyrodforum.   

[Paul Roberts]

Voila!! I have a fully functioning Pflueger 1576 "Leaping Bass" for $10 and... a bunch of hours. The refurbished reel, the 'bone pile', and the offending parts:

 

I swapped the levelwind worm gear from the functioning but sorely neglected parts reel (pictured in previous post), only to find that the LW carriage tube was also -very slightly- damaged. There was the slightest gouge on the surface of the tube, causing a sticky spot when the guide block passed that point on the tube.

 

What a bear it was to put back together! Until I figured out the proper protocol. It's the main shaft "stack" (consisting of free-spool, drag, anti-reverse, and main gear, components) that was such a headache. I finally figured out that the free-spool gear should be disengaged from the main gear, and the face plate/main shaft stack/handle should be completely assembled first, before screwing down the completed face to the frame. But not until I discovered that a previous owner had replaced a drag washer with one that was slightly too thick, leaving too few threads sticking up out of the main shaft post to thread on the drag star, and still function. I eventually noticed that drag washer was a newer fiber washer, and that was the final offending piece. Phew!

 

I then went on a date with my wife (grocery shopping) and brought the reel along as a fidget spinner, or so she teased.  But there's a reason for my obsessive spinning, and that was to smooth out the reel's action, as it was a tad slow and a tad 'hissy' when first assembled. Interesting how a reel needs to be "broken in" after an overhaul. I assume it sets the gear alignment in place, and distributes the lubes. Whatever happens it sure makes an enormous difference as to how smooth and quiet the reel becomes. Very nice action on this reel. Well worth the time, and was fun to boot!

 

7 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

Paul, at some point, you may want to establish standards for yourself because, all too soon, space in your collection is the coveted item. 

Ron, thanks. That's good advice. However, I'm not "collecting" for any value beyond usable technology for fishing. I'm drawn to the beauty, and challenge, of these vintage reels, much as I'd done in my archery; Going from wheels to trad to selfbow... going into the woods with a hatchet and coming out with a functional hunting bow. So, I'll be fishing with these reels, adding them to my on-the-water "arsenal", if they merit. I'll know more after I get some fishing in with them. As it is, I'm enjoying learning about the technological progressions and, following, their functional and aesthetic beauty. I'm doing this for fun, and finding refurbishing some inexpensive old reels even meditative.

 

That Douglas' FS/AR mechanism is very cool. 

[RyanCastin]

On 12/12/2020 at 5:36 AM, bulldog1935 said:

jimmyjoe, the easiest way to tell a control freak is they offer unsolicited advice.  

There's nothing you can do or say to improve his personality, or help his psychology.  

Maybe it is time to show another fly rod.  

Here's my primary collecting bent, the rod is a 1918 FE Thomas Special.  The reel, a pattern 15a from JW Young, which was also imported and sold as the Thomas Special reel.  The rainbow is on my home tailwater.  

I reached my point of jaded 20 years ago - exactly the time I got into this and figured how to make it work for me.  

But I was catching fish after fish, insulated from the fish by disc drags and graphite fly rods, and wondering why I was harassing the fish.  

The first time I caught a 20" rainbow in fast current on vintage cane and click pawl, went oh crap, what am I going to do now - and remembered why we do this to begin with.  

There's a technical discussion about equivalent modulus in fly rod tapers, especially why cane  rods are superior to graphite in lengths below 8', and why glass is superior to both in lengths below 7', but he wouldn't understand that, either.  

 

 

New to this thread and very interested. What are the key differences between old glass and cane rods to modern rods? How do the "actions" of these rods work? Are they typically all a "slow" or "moderate" (full rod bend) action or do they have various different actions like modern rods? How do you decide lengths on these types of rods? Also have similar questions for these vintage reels but can get more in depth on that later. 

Thanks,

Ryan

[bulldog1935]

hey Ryan, 

Fishing rods have been purpose-built for 4000 years, beginning from wood and reeds.  These natural organic composites have directional fiber strength.  Rhetorically, how fast can you make a piece of wood - it all depends on how you plan to use it, and how you shape it, but a hammer handle is pretty dam* fast.  

If you want to know about rods right after the Civil War, I've linked on this thread and others to James A. Henshall's 1881 tome on bass fishing.    

At that time, reach was everything - a rod was still a pole, and casting was a limited activity.  Doc Henshall takes credit for designing the first bass rod under 12' (fly rods were most often 18' then).  

 

I've also mentioned on this, and especially threads on the rodbuilding page, that the modulus properties of split cane and S-glass are equivalent.  Conventions, techniques and tastes have evolved over the past 120 years, but, you can find historic cane rods properly built for every purpose, from creek fly fishing to tuna and tarpon - and are still made today in labors of love.  Of course, most people splitting cane today are making fly rods, but all are derived from well-functioning cane tapers from "the golden age"

 

You're also going to find the rod tapers that we would like to fish today were generally not what was made for blue-collar mass production and consumption.  Instead, these purpose-built tapers stood out from the herd, and were mostly custom-built for affluent clients.  One of the very best and fastest fly rod tapers is F.E. Thomas Light Special, designed in the early '30s, and copied today by rodbuilder Dennis Stone. A "superprogressive" dry fly taper, this rod will accurately cast the leader alone, and gives the uncanny feeling of casting itself out to 50'.

The 6' Thomas Special Mahogany Grade bait from 1914 in my OP is a jewel of a bass rod.  

Paul H. Young with his Texas partner Don West developed a series of extremely fast cane para tapers just for bass and inshore fishing.  

My rodbuilder buddy Rob Sherill in Dallas is a student of Don West and has built many of these rods.  

 

Occasionally, you can get surprised with blue-collar exceptions.  In fly rods, it's the Tonka series (Prince, Princess and Queen) built and sold by H-I into the 1950s.  In both fly and bait, Heddon cane tapers stand out.  I also have a 5' Montague Flash bait that's quite fast as blue-collar cane rods go.  The closest glass rods to this action would be the Speed Stiks and Lunkerstiks of the late 70s, and of course, all Harnell/Harrington rods.  

And again, what you're not going to find is a global modern market for these rods, because light-weight rods to do the same job as well are readily available.  The people who build and buy cane rods today have their niches focused, and have a taste for the rod actions.  

 

The exception to that is going to be fly rods, and there's a good selection of new glass fly rods out there.  The reason most graphite fly rods are 9' has to do with both the taper and the strength/toughness limits of graphite when going really light.  Generally, cane and S-glass make a better fly rod below 8', and only e-glass can make a good progressive taper below 7'.  Vintage fly rods that stand out in these short lengths include 6'6" and 7' Phillipson, and 6'8" St. Croix Imperial.  

[Paul Roberts]

On 12/8/2020 at 8:07 AM, Big Rick said:

Wow, beautiful rods and reels. Thanks for the history lesson. I'd love to see a video of them in action. I'm sure the sound alone is very unique. 

Here's one that I thought was nicely done. A Pflueger Summit goes toe to toe with a feisty pike: 

I notice a few things in watching this video: By the sound of the reel, it could probably use a bit more thorough cleaning and lubing. And the line piling up on one side of his reel and a fair amount of spool click going on as he reels, tells me he probably doesn't have the spool tension knobs set properly. He also says the AB (anti-backlash) mechanism isn't functioning. The spool tension knobs set right could actually help with this, AB mech or not. Nothing like a good educated thumb and synched casting arm though, and he's doing just fine.

 

One thing I've noticed with my old reels is that, after a good cleaning and tuning, they cast very well! Much better than I would have expected. All of them will throw a 3/8 or 1/2oz weight 100ft or more. They sure are fun to cast too, going for accuracy and zipping casts under the shrubs and tree limbs around the house. Will be fun to give them a go on the water and see where I can make best use of them.

[bulldog1935]

You guys know the falling line guide on Daiwa TW is nothing new.  

 

 

 

The Beetzsel had it first in 1915.  Of course you had to put the line in the line guide by hand to retrieve.  

 

Same with the Meisselbach Okeh

 

The first model Pflueger Supreme, 1918 Douglas patent, that started this thread solved that one.  

When the line guide stands back up, it pushes the line to either side, where the yokes lift the line and drop it in the guide.  

[Backroad Angler]

Had to come back and reread the content in this post, truly is fascinating to learn the history and see pictures of these antique reels. I just bought a reel that was made in 2004ish, and to me that was antique ?. Awesome to see older reels still being used, I've been expanding my collection of trying to obtain older reels, started with a Shimano Curado E (bare with me, I know 10 years ain't old to a lot of yall, but it is with me, I just started fishing in 2018.) and recently obtained a slightly older reel, a Shimano Chronarch 50mg. Plan on picking up another older Shimano or may even branch out to other brands when funds allow.

[Tail Slap]

On 1/4/2021 at 3:32 PM, bulldog1935 said:

You scored big on that Cardinal - congrats.  

 

How about the smallest baitcaster ever made?  

Daiwa Coronet

  

 

 

 

the little panic button brake is how you thumb the spool.  

It has a normal size reel foot, but they also made diminutive rods to match them.  

 

Makes nice contrast on this salty shelf

 

 

That is amazing seeing it in relation to those other reels.  What were its dimensions?  Even using the materials then it had to be ultra light. 

 

Who made the pencil drawing in the background?  Very fitting.

[bulldog1935]

@Tail Slap

On the Daiwa Coronet, spool flange diameter is 1", spool width is 1/2"

They made telescoping rods for them that fit in your shirt pocket and had a pocket clip like a fountain pen.  

 

I have a stack of drawings and water colors from a friend, Mark Yuhina.  

his work from college days has appeared in all the major fishing rags.  

I imagine he is off with a career in medicine these days.  

 

warmwater species painting | Fishing with Fiberglass Fly Rods | Fiberglass Flyrodders

 

Some Painting Works This Winter | Fishing with Fiberglass Fly Rods | Fiberglass Flyrodders

 

some paintings from recent brushes - long time | Fishing with Fiberglass Fly Rods | Fiberglass Flyrodders

 

Mark has a few nice old reels that came from my collection

 

broke in a new old reel | Classic Fly Reels | Fiberglass Flyrodders

 

 

 

[Tail Slap]

@bulldog1935  His paintings are excellent.  Very talented guy.  Hopefully he's a surgeon ss he has good hands.

 

With all the talk and in depth reviews of the current reels, and it's engineered tech.  It almost feels as a needed mandate to have a chance at catching decent numbers and quality of fish.  Looking at that last link...you take a look at even a current fly reel let alone an old restored classic on a split cane rod hauling in plenty of very nice fish.Brings you back to how basic fishing can really be. Simplicity, elegance, and a organic warmth.