You guys like the old stuff?

[jimmyjoe]

   Thank you!

   I've found out that if you just live long enough, you can find answers to all sorts of things.  ?    jj

[Linewinder]

On 12/12/2020 at 8:48 AM, bulldog1935 said:

I certainly understand the desire to fish modern conventional tackle, and that's what I fish in the coast flats.  Spinning reel is the most complicated piece of tackle ever devised, and no one ever quite got spindle and gear loading right until just the last decade with CAD and CNC.  Bait reels get better, tighter, lower-inertia.  The history before computer design is inspiration, trial and error.  

 

 

I have my 716Z from early 80's.  I used it mostly for wade fishing streams so it mostly never got put down and shows not much wear for its use.  Anyway, I recently got around to replacing the bearing because it was worn out, most probably from the rotor imbalance.  If anyone is unfamiliar with these Penn reels, there is only one ball bearing assembly in them, at the rotor.  Even still, the smoothness and strength of these reels rivals the more expensive of today.  So after replacing the bearing I haphazardly hot-glued some weight into the rotor to better, but not perfectly, balance it.  Hopefully this will work, not fly out while fighting a fish and keep the bearing longer.

 

I wish I could remember how much I paid back then, and I'd really like to see the old models benefit from CAD refinements and CNC processes, but surely that would cause a detrimental price increase.

[bulldog1935]

a friend on FFR recently posted take-down and rebuild of a Heddon 282 with hopelessly brinnelled pinion gear.  This is what happens when we push our reels to too-big fish, and I did on my Mitchell 300.  The gears, though is where those old Penns shine.  

It was the rotor bushing I killed on my Penn 4400SS with king macks.  

The moment arm spinning spool spindle applies to both gears and bushings is outrageous, and one thing they've worked into computer design.  

[Linewinder]

Never know what you'll catch!

 

Actually, I wonder if the worm gear set in the Penn's can outlast the other designs.

[bulldog1935]

here we are on the 3rd page without a photo

Since I mentioned the anti-backlash (ABL) mechanism on the Brit Easicast, here's where they got the idea - South Bend.  

This is a SB/Cross Doublebilt cane bait rod with a SB 1131A, their first ABL reel from 1911.  

The line goes under the bail, and slack on the line guides a spring-loaded wool pad into the spool arbor.  The knob adjusts the pad stand-off.  With proper end-tension and ABL adjustment, this is an absolute no-thumbs reel - you only need your thumb to release you cast and the spool will stop with the lure. 

A note, South Bend reels were made by Shakespeare, which allowed them to sell models that also included Marhoff's LW before it expired in 1928.  

[Paul Roberts]

On 12/12/2020 at 11:30 AM, Paul Roberts said:

Here's the steel rod I've had for some time... Pretty thing!

Well... polished the ferrules and put it together and... it's only 4.5ft long. Lacks a trigger/"finger hook" too which makes it darn unwieldy in hand. Can't imagine trying to handle a reel on top of it. Since they aren't of great value, I'll probably have to modify it: trigger to start. And maybe a fighting butt; My wrists always had trouble with pistol grip rods.

 

Finding rods to be more of a challenge here. I'm a fisherman first. And the rod does the fishing, in my mind. Not liking the looks (and prices) of most good vintage tubular glass rods. I feel like I left them (the cheaper ones at least) behind, so it's tough to click "buy" on those. Solid glass... hmmmmm. My dad had one years ago, and I have a nostalgic sweet spot there for that rod. And there are some pretty ones out there, (Heddon "Pal" in particular), but could I stand fishing with a "rubbery club"? At 5ft I can see this would be a very short range, chuck-n-wind, game. 

 

So... I might build a glass rod, with antique/vintage cosmetics. But to start, I'm going to pop the reels I'll be trying (yes, "reels" -doing only a fair job of NOT collecting!) onto a 1980's Skyline graphite 5'6" 1/4-1/2 pistol grip. Bought it new in 1985 and still love that sweet little rod -a retro style rod that can fish!

 

Will see if I can incorporate some of these old reels into my fishing. Not exactly sure why I am doing this, but I'm captivated by them somehow. Eye candy perhaps. Thanks to Ron (aka bulldog1935), I think!  But, there's a bit more there. I always loved making good catches with "limitations" in place, oft-times amusing ones: like float-fishing for steelhead with a Snoopy bobber, catching bass on a Creepy-Crawler Tarzan I molded from melted plastic worms, fished topwater with the Jaws theme song going in my head. I started archery with a cammed compound, then dialed things back to trad tackle, until I was going into the woods with a hatchet and coming out with self-bows; Still my choice there. Even made a few (very pretty) fly rods from goldenrod "cane".

 

So, we'll see what I can make of it. Already been eyeing 25N's and P-41N's. One step at a time here, though. "Whoa there, Nellie!!"  Cool thing is that there have been so many technological advancements, and well-documented by folks such as @bulldog1935, that one could actually pick their train stop through time. Pretty cool. 

[bulldog1935]

If you noted in my OP, the very first rod I posted, FE Thomas Mahogany grade bait, doesn't have trigger.  Many rods then did have a trigger brazed to either the reel seat insert or the sliding band.  

all I can say is you may get used to it.  

My recent surf rod, 8' for lures, came from Rich Hedenberg with a split-seat trigger.  

In this case it makes sense, because it's really a one-hand rod.  

But I'm planning to follow up with an 11'er for two hands and spider weights, and trying to decide whether I want the low-profile trigger, or none.  

 

[Paul Roberts]

9 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

If you noted in my OP, the very first rod I posted, FE Thomas Mahogany grade bait, doesn't have trigger.  all I can say is you may get used to it. 

 

My recent surf rod, 8' for lures, came from Rich Hedenberg with a split-seat trigger.  

In this case it makes sense, because it's really a one-hand rod.  

But I'm planning to follow up with an 11'er for two hands and spider weights, and trying to decide whether I want the low-profile trigger, or none.  

 

Will be interesting to try!

 

Beautiful surf rod there. I'm always torn between the organic and tech look. I like, and own, both. Going organic here with this old stuff. Should be fun, and enlightening. Will help me put all our advancements in better perspective. Some more John Henry moments for me I suppose. :)) If the reel explodes, or an 8lb bass breaks my wrist, will my heart-of-hearts go with it? ?

[bulldog1935]

dealing with surf and sand slurry, part of it is just practical, but I got in my classic with modified Abu CT reels.  

I began with two 1995 Blue Yonder 6500 C3CT

made them light and slick with Akios barstock frames (v. chromed brass), converting one to 5500 width, raced out bearings (all new stainless drives), lighter alloy handles and drag stars (v. steel) and Avail shallow braid spools (200 yd and 300 yd 30-lb braid).  The spools make an amazing weight and inertia difference compared to 250 and 400 yds 15-lb mono on deep-flange spools.  

and Avail internally adjustable mag that matches the spools

(spool cog is also BB)

I've fished the 5500 on the 8' rod and it more than doubles any of my other baitcasters with the same lure weight.  Lawn casting 1/4-oz lure the first time, accidentally put it in my neighbor's back acre.  

When I began, set out to make a better Talbot...

 

[jimmyjoe]

   @bulldog1935,  those open-cage reels almost look 5500-size and 4500-size. I wish there were someone to re-position (drop) the crossbar on regular  5500C3 reels, because I have arthritis. The crossbar is ju-u-ust the wrong height for my hands, and will trigger some wake-up pain. I appreciate the open-cage reels except for one thing; the constant winding of the line lay. Too bad that a synchronized level-wind mechanism and a reduced-height thumb rest can't be combined in a single reel.

   Oh, well. Nice stuff.   ?  jj

[bulldog1935]

before this thread drops off into infinity, a few select reel porn photos:  

The ivory grasp on my Talbot Niangua

Meek, Talbot, and Jack Welch Heddons share this U-spring clicker design, and these phosphor bronze springs often fatigue at the sweated block.  Here's the repair on my Talbot (before cutting my fabricated spring to final length)

Since I mentioned Jack Welch Heddons, a 3-15.  Jack Welch began at Talbot, and brought his bench skills to Dowagiac, where he built reels of equal quality,

in great demand to collectors.    Note the main gear oil port and spool spindle oil reservoirs.

 

Meek No. 3 after they were bought by Horton and moved to Bristol, Conn

I mentioned the good bushings on early Shakespeare NLW reels.  

Even this blue-eyed low-grade Leader casts great.  

Probably the oldest bait reel I own, another quality, though low-grade Shakespeare, the Alamo

A very pretty ebonite and nickel silver Abbey reel - this beauty was too easy to sell, but I have the photos

This isn't my reel, but a reel I was hired to clean up - rare and pretty valuable - the Redifor X winding plate multiplier - aluminum frame and spool from a time aluminum cost the same as silver.  

Not very valuable, but kind of cool, a Pflueger trade reel marked Revonoc, one of the house brands of HSB&Co hardware stores (later True Value).  Next to it, an HSB&Co Diamond brand pocket knife.  I also have Revonoc nesting camp cups.  

 

Saw a new thread on DC reels - finally going to say it - if you can cast and especially fish any of these, you will become better with all of your modern baitcasters.  

[Paul Roberts]

On 12/11/2020 at 2:13 PM, Linewinder said:

These braided nylon lines...  are the diameters similar to mono lines in same lbs test?  Perhaps a 10 or 12 lbs braided line.

I've been acquiring, renovating, and trying out some antique casting reels lately, and actually mic'd some new 12lb Mason Legend braided nylon. Kind of difficult to accurately mic braids but I seem to get .013 to .014, which is what many 12 to 14lb nylon monos come in at.

[Paul Roberts]

Here are a few old reels I've acquired and cleaned up... OK, torn down stem to stern to get them purring again. It's amazing how well-made they are, nearly bulletproof: A South Bend 1200 (1920's), Marhoff #26 (late 20's), and a South Bend 1000 (late 40's into the 50's) -rough dates here. All three are actually Shakespeare made.

Here is a Langley 310 (late 40's thru the 50's) on the 1984 Skyline graphite rod I've been test-driving my old reels on. The rod is a thoroughly modern performer that I've caught a lot of bass on since I bought it new off the rack in '84.

[jimmyjoe]

7 minutes ago, Paul Roberts said:

The rod is a thoroughly modern performer that I've caught a lot of bass on since I bought it new off the rack in '84.

 

   Now, you KNOW that rod has no street cred, don't you? It has to have worn spots, dirty streaks and the writing on the shaft needs to be worn into illegibility. A few fish scales in crevices here and there wouldn't hurt either. ???

   Just kidding, @Paul Roberts.   Beautiful pics!   ?         jj

[bulldog1935]

Way to go Paul - thanks for playing.  Great reels, and love the yellow on the SB.  

 

Back into the previous century, and example reels I don't own, but was hired to preserve.  Patina is a term thrown around loosely, and in valuable nickel-silver antique fishing reels, red, green and pink isn't patina - it's active corrosion, and the colored salts themselves are corrosive.  Copper-based alloys pit by a mechanism that doesn't produce visible holes or even much surface roughness - when the alloy dissolves in corrosion, a matte of pink copper metal plates back out.  The process is dealloying.  Valuable reels sitting on the shelf with this active corrosion are gradually disappearing every time the humidity changes.  

So my job is to clean away the salts, polish away (hopefully) shallow dealloying, polish the surface oxide and salts from ebonite (hard rubber), dress the screw heads as best I can - but too many times, people have already taken tapered screwdrivers to the screw heads, where they should have been using hollow-ground gunsmithing bits.  Now the alloy can grow the gold patina it deserves.  

 

The three things that attack antique reels are organic acids from decomposing lube, residual salt, acids and ammonia from biological rot of wet lines and leather reel cases.  Always remove old lines from valuable reels, and never store them in mildewed leather cases.  So after that lecture, here are the cool reels, both valued in the mid-four digits:  

 

This is a Leonard Mills bi-metal, patented by William Mills in 1877, and built for him by Philbrook & Payne.  

 

 

 

This Spalding Kosmic, made by Julius vom Hofe, and patented in 1884, is even more valuable because of a short production run - the Kosmic name was a trademark infringement.  

 

 

[Paul Roberts]

On 1/2/2021 at 6:01 PM, jimmyjoe said:

  Now, you KNOW that rod has no street cred, don't you? It has to have worn spots, dirty streaks and the writing on the shaft needs to be worn into illegibility. A few fish scales in crevices here and there wouldn't hurt either. ???

   Just kidding, @Paul Roberts.   Beautiful pics!   ?         jj

:)) Yeah, I know... it looks bad. I can't stand clean cork either and will even cheat by muddying a new rod up before I even start fishing with it. My Skyline pistol however is indeed pretty much pristine. It hasn't seen much use since two-handed rods became "a thing". I actually made my own first two-hander, by peeling off a pistol grip from a "blank-thru" rod and epoxying on a straight handle from a light downrigger rod. Still use that rod regularly. Another "If it ain't broke..." kind of thing. Not sure these old photos are going to add any street cred though :)) What's with that hat?! The night shot shows another bass caught on my grandfather's Jitterbug. That one 'bug has caught bass for 4 generations of Roberts'.

 

 

 

On 1/2/2021 at 7:14 PM, bulldog1935 said:

Way to go Paul - thanks for playing.  Great reels, and love the yellow on the SB.  

Yes, that's the "Deluxe" version, with a plastic head ring. That color caught my fancy, as the rod blank for my "vintage facsimile" build is a translucent "caramel" color.

 

BTW: Ron (bulldog1935) is a Materials Engineer, a metallurgist; The right guy to send a 4-figure reel to. If you have one you don't care that much about, I'm your man. :))

[bulldog1935]

Offering one more alternative LW when Marhoff's patent exclusion was active.  

This is the Meisselbach Okeh.  Meisselbach (and Meek Bluegrass) built reels from cut and milled nickel-silver tubing.  These reels were famous for ease of take-down and maintenance.  

The LW mechanism required a little help.  Rotating the handle backwards causes the line guide rider to fall forward and disengage.  Stands back up on retrieve, and you have to place the line in the LW guide.  

 

 

 

Phil White used to maintain the most comprehensive website on Meisselbach and many other turn-of-the-last-century brands, Cozzone, Rochester-Carlton.  Unfortunately he let it expire - much of the information has been archived on ORCA, but it doesn't have all the great photos and interactive layers.  

[Paul Roberts]

I was taken by the Meisselbachs from the get-go. They are beautiful reels, and so well designed and built. The Takapart and Tri-Part are such simple ingenious designs I think.

[Paul Roberts]

Sure, I'll play. Here's a spanking new Shakespeare Marhoff GE (1946 post-war). It needed a going through but man does it spin!

 

Speaking of "spanking new", I was the reel repair guy at a tackle shop in NY in the 80's. In the back of the store, in a box, was this Zebco Cardinal 4, in pieces, having been a handy parts reel. Store manager said I could have it (Good man he was, in many ways). I ordered a few parts and... I have/had a spanking new unfished C4. It's been fished since of course. In fact, there's some "street cred/crud" on it as I pulled it from my "working reel" case. You know, "If it ain't broke...". 

 

 

 

[bulldog1935]

You scored big on that Cardinal - congrats.  

 

How about the smallest baitcaster ever made?  

Daiwa Coronet

  

 

 

 

the little panic button brake is how you thumb the spool.  

It has a normal size reel foot, but they also made diminutive rods to match them.  

 

Makes nice contrast on this salty shelf

[Paul Roberts]

Is that diminutive Coronet 20:1? :))

[bulldog1935]

made me look, it's 3:1 - but it's really torque-y.  

The knob on the end turns on the clicker and anti-reverse.  

[Paul Roberts]

The "thumbing button" is kind of a neat idea. It also beats the 2nd deg burns from getting your thumb stuck. Nifty little thing.

[Backroad Angler]

Just stumbled on this thread, what a great history lesson, thank you. Awesome collection you have! Also noticed you lived in Bulverde, I'm right down the road in schertz!

[bulldog1935]

27 minutes ago, JoshFromBolo said:

Just stumbled on this thread, what a great history lesson, thank you. Awesome collection you have! Also noticed you lived in Bulverde, I'm right down the road in schertz!

Howdy neighbor. 

My buddy cane rod builder Floyd Burkett is your neighbor.  

Floyd makes everything 100% from butt cap to tip top, mesquite reel seat and rod tube, and has machined reel repair parts for me, for OP's valuable antique reels.  

He built me the rod above as an even swap for a Pflueger Hawkeye - nice reel, but I got the good end of that trade.