You guys like the old stuff?

[bulldog1935]

Hi friends, 

Been working on it for 20 years, and more has left it than you see here.  That's the key, is buy well, sell well and be patient.  Especially fly reels, I've had really nice ones I fished for 5 years or so, then sold them for up to twice what I paid.  I can trace a new kayak purchase back to a $50 fly reel through several items bought, repaired, maybe fished, and sold.  Of course you have to invest the time and make the contacts.  

Within organizations like NFLCC and ORCA, my collection is dinky - Ron Gast who I mentioned above, probably has the largest and certainly most valuable collection on the planet.  

 

I also mentioned Doc Henshall above - If you want to know about bass fishing after the Civil War, the fish, rods, reels, line, lures this is it - The Book of the Black Bass.  

BASS also reprinted this book, and easy to find on Abebooks for peanuts.  

On another forum, we had a discussion of "where dog walking" came from, and the term belongs to Paw Paw lure company, c. 1918.  

But even Doc Henshall references that dog-walking plugs, a technique he calls The Bob, originated in Florida 100 years before him - that puts it back in Revolution times.  

[MN Fisher]

13 minutes ago, BrianMDTX said:

And I thought my 50 year-old Shakespeare 2052 and Mitchell 300 reels were old lol.

I was thinking the same about my 70s era reels - both of which are still in excellent working order despite being a little dinged up.

 

15 minutes ago, BrianMDTX said:

Great thread! 

I agree.

[Linewinder]

4 hours ago, bulldog1935 said:

Tom and I swapped a few pm's over his Langleys - these all-aluminum reels have a huge fan club.  And not just to put on a shelf - many people want these reels to fish on vintage cane and glass rods.  With lightweight spools, large arbors and very low inertia, they also fit right in with the modern trend to "bait finesse" and light lures on casting reels.  I asked him to post these - he said the photos were beyond his computer prowess and e-mailed them to me.  Tom, if you don't mind, I'm posting your photos of your Langley 340 Target freespool...

 

 

 

The freespool works with a simple swage on the handle that grabs the main gear.  

You pull out on the handle to freespool, and push back in to engage the retrieve.  

Below is a diminutive prewar Shakespeare 1740 Tournament freespool that works exactly the same way.  It has alloy spool with balsa arbor.  I have it loaded with 4-lb silk, and it fishes 1/8 oz really well.  

If any of you can contribute to this thread with photos, would love to see them.  

 

So much style.   The young padawan *  reels of today look like cars to me.

 

I'm predicting this thread will become one that lasts many years, or at least I hope so.

 

 

* https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Padawan

[bulldog1935]

yes, they weren't shy about Art Deco styling on the Langley Target.  

[Paul Roberts]

Such a fun thread. Thanks, bulldog, for posting and sharing your knowledge.

 

I have an old tubular steel "bass" (?) rod that's about 5ft or so. It's in great shape and I've toyed with the idea of finding a vintage reel and putting it to use. I have a YT channel and people often comment on, and even chuckle at, my "vintage" gear (70's and 80's ). To which I reply, "That's not vintage, that's just my stuff!" If it ain't broke... Looks as though many of them will outlast me.

 

As to true "vintage" reels, I've perused ebay some, looking at old Pflueger's (only vintage brand I've known about) and see there are so many, and I know so little about them. What reel brands/models would you recommend someone look for, that would be functional without breaking the bank?

[WRB]

I sold the Langley 340 Target reel to a BR member who is taking good care it. The 340 is unique from knuckle buster casting reels in the 40’ or 50’s because it has a free spool that disengages from the handle and no level wind to slow down the light weight drilled shallow aluminum spool.

Jason Lucas  used and recommended Langley bait casting reels to me in 1955 along with Conolon light weight tubular rods. 

I started with the 340 because Jason used this reel during  exhibition casting demonstration. The reel only weighs 4 oz and could cast a 3/8 oz lure 50 yards, that all line the held?

To disengage the handle you pull it outward then made the cast pushing the handle in to engage it to the spool. 

I bought the 330 Lure Cast because it had a level wind but the handle was engaged with the spool like casting reels of that era. The 330 uses the same design light spool and could early cast 1/2 oz lures 50 yards but easier to learn to use. I fished with the 330 until the Ambassador free spool reel came out the 60’s. Still have the 330 Lure Cast and it’s shows the years of use but sill is as function today as it was new.

Lot of good memories and 2 lake record LMB caught using the and Conolon rod. 11 lb LMB from Lake Havasu on a live waterdog in 1957 and 10 lb on LMB from Lake Sherwood on a Shannon twin spinner in 1957, plus a 12 lb LMB on a jointed Pikie from a private Livingston Rock quarry lake (unofficial uninvited and released). 

The big bass would turn the handle backward while you tried to slow them down using your thumb as the drag, smoked thumb!

I used mostly Dacron 10 lb Ashaway braid on the 330 and. 6 lb silk on the 340 in the photo.

Tom. 

    

 

 

[bulldog1935]

On 12/11/2020 at 1:40 PM, Paul Roberts said:

Such a fun thread. Thanks, bulldog, for posting and sharing your knowledge.

 

I have an old tubular steel "bass" (?) rod that's about 5ft or so. It's in great shape and I've toyed with the idea of finding a vintage reel and putting it to use. I have a YT channel and people often comment on, and even chuckle at, my "vintage" gear (70's and 80's ). To which I reply, "That's not vintage, that's just my stuff!" If it ain't broke... Looks as though many of them will outlast me.

 

As to true "vintage" reels, I've perused ebay some, looking at old Pflueger's (only vintage brand I've known about) and see there are so many, and I know so little about them. What reel brands/models would you recommend someone look for, that would be functional without breaking the bank?

One of my favorite postwar Marhoff-copy reels is the Pflueger Skilkast.  

Here it is on a Heddon Pal glass rod - Supreme, Skilkast, Shakespeare Marhoff would be my recommendation for the steel rod.  Bill Sonnet on ORCA and sometimes on FFR fishes steel and Marhoff primarily and lauds both.  The Skilkast has a Cub drag handle, and no photogenic because it's so reflective.  

Speaking of Shakespeare Marhoff, here's a dressy one on a Montague Flash cane rod.  

 

I forgot to add, in lieu of finding old silk or postwar nylon to take care of your bare rod guides

You can use green-spot, ice-fishing nylon (nice because it's teflon-impregnated).  Both Mason and Gudegrod made recent soft braids.  I really like Gudebrod MeatMaster braid, but grab those close-outs quickly, because Gudebrod went out of business a few years ago (over losing their dental floss client).  

[Linewinder]

These braided nylon lines...  are the diameters similar to mono lines in same lbs test?  Perhaps a 10 or 12 lbs braided line.

[bulldog1935]

It can vary - they're probably thicker, but 10- and 12-lb soft nylon braid is so thin, you usually need to back your full-arbor vintage reel with something heavier, then finish off with your working line.  I was very happy once on ebay when I bought the Canadian Strikemaster above - he was selling connected spools of 10, 15, 25, and 30 as a package.  So I backed with the heavier lines to fish the lighter ones.  

[WRB]

Braided Dacron line is about equal diameter per lb test as monofilament line. 

Tom

[mcipinkie]

I don't doubt these rods and reels are beautiful, and spark some old memories of the past.   Heck, I'm almost 75.  I live in the past.  Quit the BS.  I remember when these were the tools of choice.  They ain't now. 

 

Go to Walmart or BPS and buy some $20 rods and reels.  More expensive, if you can afford.  They will cast better and fish better than any of these antiques.  If you want to use them for fun and nostalgia, have at it, but they are not good tools any more.

 

Spare me.  It's the 21st century. 

 

[jimmyjoe]

6 hours ago, mcipinkie said:

I don't doubt these rods and reels are beautiful, and spark some old memories of the past.   Heck, I'm almost 75.  I live in the past.  Quit the BS.  I remember when these were the tools of choice.  They ain't now. 

 

Go to Walmart or BPS and buy some $20 rods and reels.  More expensive, if you can afford.  They will cast better and fish better than any of these antiques.  If you want to use them for fun and nostalgia, have at it, but they are not good tools any more.

 

Spare me.  It's the 21st century. 

 

 

   Wow. Sounds like someone is full of hatred and vitriol.

   I re-read the posts. No one was advising that these reels be used instead of equipment we see for sale on the market every day. Yes, they do have capabilities that we don't see nowadays, but so do steam tractors.

   I don't see how that classifies as BS.

   I, for one, love to see the old stuff. I love to remember (or reminisce). It's enjoyable.

 

   As for "sparing" you ..... no one is forcing you to use this equipment or even read these posts. If you don't like this thread, just pass on by.       jj

[bulldog1935]

jimmyjoe, the easiest way to tell a control freak is they offer unsolicited advice.  

There's nothing you can do or say to improve his personality, or help his psychology.  

Maybe it is time to show another fly rod.  

Here's my primary collecting bent, the rod is a 1918 FE Thomas Special.  The reel, a pattern 15a from JW Young, which was also imported and sold as the Thomas Special reel.  The rainbow is on my home tailwater.  

I reached my point of jaded 20 years ago - exactly the time I got into this and figured how to make it work for me.  

But I was catching fish after fish, insulated from the fish by disc drags and graphite fly rods, and wondering why I was harassing the fish.  

The first time I caught a 20" rainbow in fast current on vintage cane and click pawl, went oh crap, what am I going to do now - and remembered why we do this to begin with.  

There's a technical discussion about equivalent modulus in fly rod tapers, especially why cane  rods are superior to graphite in lengths below 8', and why glass is superior to both in lengths below 7', but he wouldn't understand that, either.  

 

 

[livin2fish]

28 minutes ago, bulldog1935 said:

but he wouldn't understand that, either. 

Don't be dragged down to a lower level.  Just keep the good stuff coming.  Love the thread.

[bulldog1935]

Back on topic, here's the rod I found to match my Penn 716.  

The old para glass rod is a Fispo finished and sold in Zurich, but there's no arguing the blank is a Harnell/Harrington.  

 

 

 

John Harrington's WWII tinkering with glass bass rods took up his weekends while he was working for Douglas Aircraft.  His tinkering paralleled the more scientific effort of Doc Howald and Shakespeare WondeRod.  There's a very good argument Harnell sold the first glass rod.  

John was a terrible businessman, his partner forced a break-up, sold the business and Harnell name to H-I/Gladding, John kept his mandrels, and continued selling rod blanks and finished rods from his California shop into the 1980s.  His rods are desired everywhere - to fish - today.  

[bulldog1935]

I'll add something else - acquiring quality cane and vintage click-pawl fly reels was easy to justify, because I preferred using them over the latest and greatest (hype) graphite rod and fly reel that looks like the wheels that keep spinning after the SUV stops.  

The thing is, you could buy 3 of the vintage for the cost of one new Snow Job rod.  A year later, the new stuff that you bought is worth less than you paid, while the quality vintage tackle you acquired is worth more than you paid.  

 

I certainly understand the desire to fish modern conventional tackle, and that's what I fish in the coast flats.  Spinning reel is the most complicated piece of tackle ever devised, and no one ever quite got spindle and gear loading right until just the last decade with CAD and CNC.  Bait reels get better, tighter, lower-inertia.  The history before computer design is inspiration, trial and error.  

 

If you look at fly fishing, unless you're going after tarpon, in many ways, the old tackle is better than the new.  The short fly glass rods of the '70s are outstanding, and the work of great rod builders like Bill Phillipson got left behind when everything had to be graphite (and machined barstock) to sell.  Marketing tackle is always aiming at N+1 - they're selling to fishermen - if they're going to sell you this year's rod, they first must convince you last year's is obsolete.  

 

I even have a place for my Toray graphite ML bait rod, though it's the only rod I've broken in my life (warranty replacement).  But my go-to MH bait rod is Crowder IM6 graphite, and will never need a warranty replacement.  

 

[Captain Phil]

Years ago, I had a neighbor who was a golf pro.   I used to take him fishing.  Before he passed he gave me a fishing reel that his father had used as a boy.  I think it's an old Hendryx cane pole reel from the early nineteen hundreds.   It doesn't have much collector value.   It had a lot of sentimental value to him.   Thought you might enjoy seeing it.  It needs cleaning. Been sitting a long time.

 

 

 

 

[bulldog1935]

You might like this

1904 Hendryx catalog on googlebooks

Hendryx got their start making bird cages.  Winchester bought Hendryx in 1919, and that's where their tackle business began.  Winchester rods were made by Edwards.  

[Paul Roberts]

Here's the steel rod I've had for some time. Garage sale find I believe, but I don't remember where or when. Been collecting dust here for decades now.

 

Pretty thing! It's an Armax, a Winchester off-brand, "Steel Bait Casting Rod" made from the 20's into the 30's, from what I was able to find out. Marbled red glass, (or perhaps agate?) guides. It's in very nice condition. Looks like it was little used. I think it deserves a reel. 

 

I have some of my grandfather's plugs, including a Jitterbug that I, my dad, and his dad, have caught bass on. I see some fun ahead.

 

Thanks for the inspiration bulldog!

 

[Paul Roberts]

@bulldog1935 Is the Shakespeare Marhoff #26 a good match. Can't tell how large a reel it is. People seem to talk about the GE, GF.

 

Diff between the Skilcast and Akron?

[bulldog1935]

The GE, GF are Shakespeare-code model change years, 1945 and 1946.  

I'm not up to fine details on postwar baitcasters like guys with big collections on ORCA forum will be, but my thought is Shakespeare built better reels before the war, and Pflueger took over in quality after the war.  Out of the two you mentioned, I would go for the Akron.  I just happen to have a Skilkast and like the way it casts, in particular, it has a fine end-tension adjustment.  

[Captain Phil]

I first stated bass fishing when I was about 12.  My father didn't fish, but he hooked me up with another Dad from church that was an avid bass fisherman.  Back then, I thought he was the greatest bass fisherman in the world.  This was before electric trolling motors became popular.  He taught me to scull the boat with a paddle and we would take turns at fishing.  Anyway, he was a Chief in the Navy and had some money.  He used Pflueger Supreme reels with black braided line.  As I remember, a Pflueger Supreme like his cost over $20.  I couldn't afford a reel like that, so I purchased a Pflueger Akron.  I used Akrons until the Mitchell 300 came out and changed everything.

[bulldog1935]

That $20 from the '50s is $200 in today's money.  Here's a very useful tool for a tackle history buff - it calculates the purchasing equivalent in today's money

 

Another thing that's really cool is searching/reading the old outdoor magazines on google books - both the articles, and especially the ads.  After WWII, fishing tackle is aimed at the masses, because they had time for sports entertainment, earned vacations, and had a bit of disposable income - Popular Mechanics, Field & Stream, Boy's Life..  Here's a page from the 1951 Ward's catalog

And yes, they didn't carry Supreme or Medalist because of their blue collar market.  

 

What you find as you go back in history, fishing tackle was aimed for a more affluent market, since they had disposable income and leisure time for sports entertainment.  You find it even in Field & Stream.  Before WWII, fishing was aimed at a professional class - doctors, lawyers (Hemingway's dad). 

Outside magazine, 1917. 

the 1918 Pflueger Supreme in my OP cost $22, which is $380 in today's money.  

If you read articles in outdoor magazines from the 19th century, fishing is aimed at the wealthy, and fishing articles appear next to articles about yachting.  A good many of the fishing articles will be written 1st person about fishing with The President (of the US).  

[jimmyjoe]

   Fascinating. I had a Penn 716Z, but had never handled a 716 Greenie. I sold the Z and bought a 430SS in the early Eighties. Just sold that reel here about 5 years ago.

   The Pfluegers are interesting to me because my Dad had a Pflueger knuckle-buster on a TrueTemper stainless rod. I tried to learn how to cast with it, but I got frustrated. My older brother (17 years my senior)  had a green Heddon reel on a yellow fiberglass rod, and it was easier to control. So he taught me to cast. First bass I caught was on a black Arbogast Hula Popper. My brother used black braided nylon line, but my Dad had line that looked like small-diameter cotton cord. I never thought to ask what it really was.

   One thing I'd like to ask you that's been bugging me for many years, and I know there was a person that asked the same question on the forum here, but in a way that I think no one understood what he was asking:

   In the old cartoons, you'll see characters  casting a rod and reel. The reel is a rotating spool reel, but it's slung underneath the rod, not atop it. The rod is also inverted, with guides on the bottom.

   Cartoons are a simplified caricature, I understand that. But the person who drew those frames had to have a reason for doing it that way. So I figure that there had to have been a fishing setup that involved a reel that looked like a casting reel that we use today, but which was slung below the rod instead of above. Art, after all, imitates reality.

   How the heck they controlled overrun, I have no idea.

   Do you have any idea what that cartoon caricature represents in real life?  

   I know .... this is a long shot. Thanks anyway.    jj

[bulldog1935]

1 hour ago, jimmyjoe said:

 ...   One thing I'd like to ask you that's been bugging me for many years, and I know there was a person that asked the same question on the forum here, but in a way that I think no one understood what he was asking:

   In the old cartoons, you'll see characters  casting a rod and reel. The reel is a rotating spool reel, but it's slung underneath the rod, not atop it. The rod is also inverted, with guides on the bottom.

   Cartoons are a simplified caricature, I understand that. But the person who drew those frames had to have a reason for doing it that way. So I figure that there had to have been a fishing setup that involved a reel that looked like a casting reel that we use today, but which was slung below the rod instead of above. Art, after all, imitates reality.

   How the heck they controlled overrun, I have no idea.

   Do you have any idea what that cartoon caricature represents in real life?  

   I know .... this is a long shot. Thanks anyway.    jj

Thanks for the great story, and a tremendous question that takes us to the truly esoteric.  

On fly fishing forums, people talk about lawn casting - IMO, they're just reinforcing bad habits.  The antique bait reels we've talked about on this thread are hands-down the most fun to take to the back acre for Casting.  

While the Brits have imported our multipliers back to the '30s, their primary baitcasters are under-the-rod - they call them spinning reels.  

What they do is called a Wallace cast.  

In the early 60s movie Saturday Night and Sunday morning, Albert Finney and his bud ride their Raleighs to the local creek and you can see a little Wallace casting.

In my quest for between-the-wars Redditch fly reels, I've also worked up a pretty good catalog collection.  This is from Farlow's '33.  

They basically let the reel spin and apply finger brakes to the spool.  

The esoteric part, along the way, I picked up an Allcocks Easicast and split-cane Stephenson 7-1/2' under-rod spinning rod (small agate guides).  This combo will cast 3/8 oz  to 150'.  It has a built-in casting brake that thumbs the spool for you.  As the line goes slack through the bail, the shoe moves to apply spool rim brakes.